What Do You Think?

[sdmsanjose]

[FONT=&quot]What do you think?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]First a thank you to the Mods for allowing the thread “Discussion on Submission” to be discussed by the members.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am very liberal when it comes to discussions by mature adults of scriptures. However, I am more concerned about some of the words of the linked article [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“How playing the good Christian housewife almost killed me” than I would be about discussions of the Christian scriptures that mention love and submission including [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ephesians[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 5:22-33[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The words of the linked article that I would be more concerned about are:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christ as [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“being a set up dysfunctional game-playing and crazy-making head trips”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And God as one [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“who exemplifies the abusive bully, and who commands his followers to imitate His very warped and twisted idea of “love.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The woman writer that stated these words ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Vyckie Garrison) has taken her experience with Quiverfull; an extreme unbalanced view of Christianity and has carried her beliefs beyond quiverfull and onto attacking the Christian God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am talking about the quotes above and not her other points on Quiverfull. Her decision to follow the Quiverfull interpretations of scripture no doubt caused her some very painful experiences. The quiverfull experience that she presented is a twisted version of the Christian faith and lacks wisdom in understanding of the scriptures IMO.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Although the scriptures on love and submission will ignite some very heated discussions by parties on both sides; those discussions never attacked our God as being the perpetrator of [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“being a set up dysfunctional game-playing and crazy-making head trips”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And God as [/FONT][FONT=&quot]one “who exemplifies the abusive bully, and who commands his followers to imitate His very warped and twisted idea of “love.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am torn between my liberal position on discussion of scriptures and these attacks on our God. I have no problem with the Love and submission scriptures as discussed but portraying our God as the article did on a Christian Forum is challenging my liberal position on Christian discussion on a this Christian forum.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What do you all think of an article being posted on this forum that calls our God as one that sets up “…crazy-making head trips and exemplifies the abusive bully with a very warped and twisted idea of “love”?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I started this thread because there are some that wanted to focus and discuss the other issues, not the attacks on God that the linked article [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“How playing the good Christian housewife almost killed me” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]presented.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By starting a new thread I wanted to only discuss the issue of attacking our God[/FONT]

 

[DZoolander]

I think it becomes problematic when people start discussing "our God" though, because discussions about God kind of remind me of the Platonic "Shadows on the Wall" cave story re: perceptions of "truth". Everyone brings in their own perceptions of what "God" is - and feels justified in those beliefs. How we perceive God (and the character of God) is most likely a mixture of our parents biases, the socialization we received at church, our pastor's biases, how those things mix in with how we read scripture, etc.

Like, I'd venture to say that there are probably people in your congregation that truly think that God killed off two cities for sexual immorality. There are probably those that feel that sexual immorality in those cities was symptomatic of a greater problem - which was lack of consideration for your fellow man (and that's truly what Sodom/Gomorrah was truly about). There are some that read about Onan and truly believe that God killed a guy for "spilling his seed". Others believe it was more complicated and that God killed him for abandoning his Levite obligations.

...and it could go on and on.

So, "our God" or the "Christian God" is a highly subjective and personal thing for most people...influenced by a great number of things.

Where it gets complicated is that I want to say "So, if she has a perception of God based upon selective/cherry picking of scripture by others that were around her - I can understand why she's upset at God and says those things" - but there's also the side of me that recognizes that everyone cherry picks. Everyone brings their own agendas in.

I happen to want to believe in a more egalitarian type of God that respects both sexes equally, doesn't have huge hangups about sex over and above other moral issues, etc...so I weigh things that support my desired belief more than others that might conflict with it.. Everyone else does the same, to be honest. It's kind of like when you hear people jest that "It's funny how God hates the same things you hate". There's a great deal of truth in that.

She had the misfortune of being raised, apparently, and part of a fold that truly is crazy making....and it's unfortunately led her to rebel against/be angry with "God". I feel for her and hope that she works her way out of it. But, to believe that there's some sort of other more "objective" sect out there that has a greater grasp of truth on God's nature void of their own biases - I don't believe that's true or that it exists. She's simply unfortunate enough to have been part of one group, and not part of another that's a bit more reasonable.

At least that's how I see it

 

[HannahT]

I am torn between my liberal position on discussion of scriptures and these attacks on our God. I have no problem with the Love and submission scriptures as discussed but portraying our God as the article did on a Christian Forum is challenging my liberal position on Christian discussion on a this Christian forum.

What do you all think of an article being posted on this forum that calls our God as one that sets up “…crazy-making head trips and exemplifies the abusive bully with a very warped and twisted idea of “love”?

I'm more concerned about how the person came to that opinion more than the opinion itself.

It's normally - from what I have experienced - how the truth of God is presented, and how human's tend to use faith, scripture, doctrine, etc to justified things they claim are done in the name of God. If they come from a twisted type of thinking - from what I read sounds like the group she was connected to was rather 'cultish' - the image is going to be warped as well.

I certainly don't agree with her, but it sounds like she was hurt badly. Human's tend to lash out when they find it safe to do so. Not saying that is the right thing to do, but people do it all the time. She was attacking the faith, because people used the faith to attack her - so she perceives it seems.

I've been praying for her, him, and their family.

 

[sdmsanjose]

[FONT=&quot]BY EZ[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think it becomes problematic when people start discussing "our God"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]EZ, this forum has been discussing “Our God” for years. Many of the topics on this forum are based on “Our God” and I doubt that is going to seize any time soon. The difference in all those threads and posts throughout the years and this article is that I do not remember any posts stating that God is one[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Who exemplifies the abusive bully, and who commands his followers to imitate His very warped and twisted idea of “love.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The woman that stated the above has been hurt and her anger is understandable. However, I was wondering if this forum wants to allow posts or linked articles that attack the very nature of God against the belief of this forum. It is my understanding that this forum DOES NOT believe that “God commands his followers to imitate His very warped and twisted Idea of love.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this forum wants to allow such posts then I can live with that. This forum, at one time, would not allow very controversial topics to be posted such as the topics of love and submission as stated in scriptures so I was wondering if the forum has made a change in allowing controversial posts. The Love and submission topic is much less of a controversial topic than a topic that states that God has a “...warped and twisted idea of love” IMO[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

BY EZ
“… to believe that there's some sort of other more "objective" sect out there that has a greater grasp of truth on God's nature void of their own biases - I don't believe that's true or that it exists.”

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My post does not address [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“…some sort of other more objective sect out there”. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I wanted to know what this specific forum thinks about the article’s description of God. As I said if this forum wants to have those controversial posts posted then I can live with that. Also, I will feel free to post some controversial posts if this forum takes that position.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frankly, I have believed in the past that this forum is a bit too quick to stop threads or censor posts. However, ever since they have allowed the Love and submission thread I am starting to change my belief about Christian Forums.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I was a bit surprised that the section of the linked article that described God in a way that is very controversial was not questioned. However, if the forum now allows more controversial topics then I understand more now.[/FONT]

 

[sdmsanjose]

I am torn between my liberal position on discussion of scriptures and these attacks on our God. I have no problem with the Love and submission scriptures as discussed but portraying our God as the article did on a Christian Forum is challenging my liberal position on Christian discussion on a this Christian forum.

What do you all think of an article being posted on this forum that calls our God as one that sets up “…crazy-making head trips and exemplifies the abusive bully with a very warped and twisted idea of “love”

[FONT=&quot]?[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By Hanna[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I'm more concerned about how the person came to that opinion more than the opinion itself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hanna, I think that she came to that opinion based upon her decision to follow her description of the Quiver full group’s ideas and the deep hurts that she has suffered.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

It's normally - from what I have experienced - how the truth of God is presented, and how human's tend to use faith, scripture, doctrine, etc. to justified things they claim are done in the name of God. If they come from a twisted type of thinking - from what I read sounds like the group she was connected to be rather 'cultish' - the image is going to be warped as well.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At one time I was taught that Catholics were not Christian, that God was just waiting for me to sin so that He could punish me, and that if I committed a sin and died right after I would go to hell. Fortunately, when I got older, I had all the resources to look into those taught beliefs. I do not believe any of those now. I got a warped portrayal of God’s truth but I did not blame God for those warped teachings.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I certainly don't agree with her, but it sounds like she was hurt badly. Human's tend to lash out when they find it safe to do so. Not saying that is the right thing to do, but people do it all the time. She was attacking the faith, because people used the faith to attack her - so she perceives it seems.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]People do use faith to attack people but I think that we in America have a lot of abilities and freedoms to arrive at our own faith. Maybe this woman was so brainwashed from childhood that she failed to use her freedom and free will to question the Quivers ideas before all the hurts that she experienced. Now that she is using her freedoms and free will she has determined that God is a bully that has a warped and twisted idea of love. That is truly sad and Think you for praying for her, him, and their family.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I've been praying for her, him, and their family.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[DZoolander]

Don't you think, though, that everyone here recognizes that post for what it is...?

It's not REALLY so much an attack on God, but rather the venting of a really hurt woman attacking those that have hijacked God for their own ends? I mean - sure - if you take the post at face value she's saying those things about God...but really...isn't it simply what I suggest?

 

[seeingeyes]

Why shouldn't she believe that when just about everyone she knows who "follows God" is warped and abusive?

 

[sdmsanjose]

BY EZ
Don't you think, though, that everyone here recognizes that post for what it is...?

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Maybe but that is not exactly the issue I was presenting. The issue that I was wondering about was not about if everyone here recognizes that post for what it is but rather if this forum wants to allow linked articles that contradicts this forum’s belief in God’s idea of love and that God exemplifies an abusive bully[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is my understanding that this forum DOES NOT believe what she stated below”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I could not say that my husband’s patriarchal behavior was abusive so long as I was committed to a relationship with “The Big Guy” who exemplifies the abusive bully, and who commands his followers to imitate His very warped and twisted idea of “love.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

By EZ
It's not REALLY so much an attack on God, but rather the venting of a really hurt woman attacking those that have hijacked God for their own ends? I mean - sure - if you take the post at face value she's saying those things about God...but really...isn't it simply what I suggest?

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes it seems to me that she is attacking those that have hijacked God for their own ends but she is also attacking God by saying that He exemplifies an “abusive bully” that has a “warped and twisted idea of love”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This woman is very hurt but I can only go by what she has written. I do not want to guess as to what she may mean other than what she says. My main point is not so much about her as it is about what post will be allowed on this forum.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This woman has been seriously hurt and I hope that she has a better life than she had with the quiverfull gang![/FONT]

 

[seeingeyes]

[FONT="]By starting a new thread I wanted to only discuss the issue of attacking our God[/FONT]

Oops, I missed this part, sorry.

Reading an article like that has no affect on my faith in God. If it did, I would say that my foundation is wobbly indeed.

Didn't Jesus come to those that the religious rulers of his day condemned as sinners? Guess what those sinners would have posted about the god of the Pharisees...

When I see such an article, I don't see God being attacked (He can take care of Himself, honestly). What I see is a soul that has been destroyed in the name of a God who came to rescue the lost and helpless. I see her heart.

She doesn't need even more dictation in the name of God. She needs a friend.


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Autumnleaf]

Here is how it went down. She thought it was great until she got bored with it. Then she wanted out. Instead of saying she got bored with it and wanted out she came up with a "reason" why.

There are two reasons why people do things. There is the reason they tell other people is the reason and then there is the real reason. They are seldom the same. One usually is selfish and the other usually seems reasonable.

 

[sdmsanjose]

By seeingeyes

By SDM
By starting a new thread I wanted to only discuss the issue of attacking our God
Oops, I missed this part, sorry.

Reading an article like that has no affect on my faith in God. If it did, I would say that my foundation is wobbly indeed.

Didn't Jesus come to those that the religious rulers of his day condemned as sinners? Guess what those sinners would have posted about the god of the Pharisees...

When I see such an article, I don't see God being attacked (He can take care of Himself, honestly). What I see is a soul that has been destroyed in the name of a God who came to rescue the lost and helpless. I see her heart.

She doesn't need even more dictation in the name of God. She needs a friend.

[FONT=&quot]I am fully aware that God can take care of Himself and I am also aware that this woman needs a friend. My main point had nothing to do with those two topics you brought up. You missed one part of my post and maybe you also missed the part below which spells out my main point[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

My main point is not so much about her as it is about what post will be allowed on this forum.

This woman has been seriously hurt and I hope that she has a better life than she had with the quiverfull gang!

[/FONT]

 

[HannahT]

My main point is not so much about her as it is about what post will be allowed on this forum.

Shrugs - if you can't discuss it people will not be aware, and you may not know how to face it when and if you do.

Let's face it. lol we have all kinds of strange topics we discuss here.

Honestly, I have learned loads by reading other's prospective on all kinds of subjects. I'm not agree with all of them, but I did gain some knowledge.

 

[seeingeyes]

[FONT=&quot]I am fully aware that God can take care of Himself and I am also aware that this woman needs a friend. My main point had nothing to do with those two topics you brought up. You missed one part of my post and maybe you also missed the part below which spells out my main point[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Why shouldn't that sort of thing be posted here?

 

[sdmsanjose]

By SDM

<font size="3">

 

[sdmsanjose]

By SDM

 

[sdmsanjose]

[FONT=&quot;]By SDM[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot;]My main point is not so much about her as it is about what post will be allowed on this forum.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot;]By Hanna[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot;]Shrugs - if you can't discuss it people will not be aware, and you may not know how to face it when and if you do.

Let's face it. lol we have all kinds of strange topics we discuss here.

Honestly, I have learned loads by reading other's prospective on all kinds of subjects. I'm not agree with all of them, but I did gain some knowledge.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hanna[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this forum thinks like you then I can sure live with that. I have always thought that this forum was a bit to quick to close a thread or censor a thread. Ever since they have allowed the submission and love thread to be posted I have realized that they are more willing to see things the way you have posted above. I was surprised that they allowed the linked article but that is OK by me. I will now feel free to post some posts that I did not think that I could before. In the past I was contacted by the Mods because I posted a post that had wet dreams mentioned. Another poster was warned because she mentioned masturbation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am just trying to see what will now be allowed so I used the linked article to see where we stand on posts allowed. I think that the linked post was more controversial than submission, masturbation or wet dreams. However, it is not up to me as to what will be allowed but as a poster I would like to know where the line is if there is a line.[/FONT]

 

[sdmsanjose]

[FONT=&quot;]Originally Posted by sdmsanjose[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot;]I am fully aware that God can take care of Himself and I am also aware that this woman needs a friend. My main point had nothing to do with those two topics you brought up. You missed one part of my post and maybe you also missed the part below which spells out my main point[/FONT][FONT=&quot;]

By seeingeyes[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot;]Why shouldn't that sort of thing be posted here?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is not a question for me to determine that is for the authorities [FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]f this forum.[/FONT]

 

[HannahT]

[FONT=&quot]Hanna[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this forum thinks like you then I can sure live with that. I have always thought that this forum was a bit to quick to close a thread or censor a thread. Ever since they have allowed the submission and love thread to be posted I have realized that they are more willing to see things the way you have posted above. I was surprised that they allowed the linked article but that is OK by me. I will now feel free to post some posts that I did not think that I could before. In the past I was contacted by the Mods because I posted a post that had wet dreams mentioned. Another poster was warned because she mentioned masturbation.[/FONT]

The subject matter that you mentioned is of a sexual nature, and maybe it would be best to have a separate type of forum for that.

I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch if I saw the title of a thread speaking about those subjects, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be participating. There is nothing with the subjects, but I doubt I could give much to the conversation.

I am kind of surprised the don't have a section for that subject matter. Its part of life!

 

[LinkH]

In response to the OP, do you think it is immoral for Christians to read sites that attack God, or to post links to sites that attack God?

One of my concerns about the article is that she clearly hated aspects of the faith that any Christian should believe in, not just the quiverful movement. She thought the Bible was abusive for teaching that people are sinners. That's why I didn't put too much stock in her opinion about her experience. She decided to reject God and hate truth, so why would people assume she was write about other things she had a problem with in the quiverful movement, without her even giving the details. If she considered scriptures about Israel's righteousness being as filthy rags to be abusive, she had a distorted idea of what abuse was in the first place.

 

[Inkachu]

I think she was mixing up her bitterness towards abusive authority figures, and her faith, and was misplacing her anger and resentment on God instead of where it belonged; on her husband and others who believe in oppressing their wives.