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unkern

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These are several full translations of two verses:

Romans 3:31

Faith Institutes permanently the law

Faith Makes firm the law

Faith bring the law to existence

Matthew 5:17

I have come to bring into actuality the law and the prophet, not to bring the law to an end

I have come to carry out the law and the prophets, not to destroy the law

I have come to measure up to the law and the prophets, not to demolish the law.

Discuss....
 
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freeport

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These are several full translations of two verses:

Romans 3:31

Faith Institutes permanently the law

Faith Makes firm the law

Faith bring the law to existence

Matthew 5:17

I have come to bring into actuality the law not to bring the law to an end

I have come to carry out the law not to destroy the law

I have come to measure up to the law not to demolish the law.

Discuss....

I really do not see anything to discuss here, this is basic Christian doctrine on good and evil, and salvation through faith.

As it says in Psalms, 'I praise you Lord for you have saved me according to my faithfulness'.

Paul points out the Law is spiritual.

Jesus took up the Law onto Himself and God then put all judgment into His hands.

Anyone in Christ is outside of the Law: In the Prophets God told Israel that because they would not turn to God their religion would be 'do and do and do' and 'do not'. That is not how we are saved... but through the Living Spirit of God who lives in our hearts.

Therefore, we walk in the Spirit judging rightly and living freely with none who may accuse us, for the Lord alone is the Judge: by the very blood of Jesus Christ.
 
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unkern

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I really do not see anything to discuss here, this is basic Christian doctrine on good and evil, and salvation through faith.

As it says in Psalms, 'I praise you Lord for you have saved me according to my faithfulness'.

Paul points out the Law is spiritual.

Jesus took up the Law onto Himself and God then put all judgment into His hands.

Anyone in Christ is outside of the Law: In the Prophets God told Israel that because they would not turn to God their religion would be 'do and do and do' and 'do not'. That is not how we are saved... but through the Living Spirit of God who lives in our hearts.

Therefore, we walk in the Spirit judging rightly and living freely with none who may accuse us, for the Lord alone is the Judge: by the very blood of Jesus Christ.

So, what your saying is that anyone that is in Christ is allowed to sin?

That doesnt line up with the God of the OT who said in Malachi 3:6 "I do not change"
 
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Hentenza

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These are several full translations of two verses:

Romans 3:31

Faith Institutes permanently the law

Faith Makes firm the law

Faith bring the law to existence

Where in that verse does it say that faith institutes, makes. or brings the law?

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

What does verse 28 say? How do the other verses above relate to verse 31?

Matthew 5:17

I have come to bring into actuality the law not to bring the law to an end

I have come to carry out the law not to destroy the law

I have come to measure up to the law not to demolish the law.
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

From where in the verses above do you get that Christ came to "bring into actuality the law", or "carry out the law", or "measure up to the law"?
 
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unkern

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Where in that verse does it say that faith institutes, makes. or brings the law?

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

What does verse 28 say? How do the other verses above relate to verse 31?

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

From where in the verses above do you get that Christ came to "bring into actuality the law", or "carry out the law", or "measure up to the law"?

the verse says establish which means to make firm, institute permanantly, or to bring to existence.

In the other verse it says fulfill which means to bring into actuality, carry out, or measure up to.

Lets look at what 27-31 says: Ro 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Ro 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

in v27 it say by what law. This shows there is more than one law, than it say works? what is the law of works (deeds of the law, works of the law) this is called the Oral law. So, do they disagree with each other? not at all.
 
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unkern

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The Law and the Prophets is the history and prophecy of Gods masterplan for the redemption of his creation.

Jesus is the fulfillment of that plan. On the cross "it is finished"

For it to be finished it would then be abolished, he said he came to fulfill it, and I put the definitions at the beginning.
 
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marktheblake

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I either don't agree with your definitions or I am not sure what they are, and I am not sure if everyone understands that "Law and the Prophets" simply means Old Testament, not 'legislation' as we commonly use the word today.
 
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unkern

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I either don't agree with your definitions or I am not sure what they are, and I am not sure if everyone understands that "Law and the Prophets" simply means Old Testament, not 'legislation' as we commonly use the word today.

The Law is actually a mistranslation the actual translation would be Torah (the first five books of the bible) Then the prophets are of course the prophets, there are different parts in the law/Torah. Like the blessings, commandments, or curses (curse of the law, law of sin and death)
 
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freeport

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The Law is actually a mistranslation the actual translation would be Torah (the first five books of the bible) Then the prophets are of course the prophets, there are different parts in the law/Torah. Like the blessings, commandments, or curses (curse of the law, law of sin and death)

No.

The "torah" is a Hebrew word meaning "Law" just as "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" means "I AM WHO I AM" or "Moses" means "drawn from" or "drew".

A word means nothing but what you fill it with.
 
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unkern

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No.

The "torah" is a Hebrew word meaning Law just as "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" means "I AM WHO I AM" or "Moses" means "Drawn from" or "Drew".

A word means nothing but what you fill it with.

That would be what I just said, the word law is used for a specific reason. If its translated law than it becomes human nature to think legalism and think of law as a bad thing. Even using "Gods Word" would be a better translation.
 
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freeport

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That would be what I just said, the word law is used for a specific reason. If its translated law than it becomes human nature to think legalism and think of law as a bad thing. Even using "Gods Word" would be a better translation.

The Law is not a bad thing.

The Law is written on the hearts of Jew and Gentile alike, and Jesus put it to death on the cross.

'The Law is Holy and good.'

But because of sin it brings death. Awareness of good and evil brings death. Where there is no awareness there is no condemnation. But, man, Adam, ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Moses made conscious what was written on the hearts of all men.


As for the Devil, his job, as guardian cherub (Ezekiel, for instance) is to protect the Tree of Life, being a flaming sword from every direction. This is why the Pharisees were said by Jesus to 'stand at the gates but not let anyone in' and 'they wish to do the will of their father, the Devil'.

Knowledge brought death, but the Tree of Life, through faith brings life, and Jesus is the Tree of Life.
 
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unkern

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The Law is written on the hearts of Jew and Gentile alike, and Jesus put it to death on the cross.

True it is written on their hearts, but it was not put to death. The curses were nailed on the cross, if the law was than there would be no second coming of Messiah.
 
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Hentenza

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the verse says establish which means to make firm, institute permanantly, or to bring to existence.

The law was already in existence and therefore, already instituted. How are we to establish the law based on grace?

In the other verse it says fulfill which means to bring into actuality, carry out, or measure up to.

Lets look at what 27-31 says: Ro 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ok.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Right.

Ro 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Ok

Ro 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
OK

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

in v27 it say by what law. This shows there is more than one law, than it say works? what is the law of works (deeds of the law, works of the law) this is called the Oral law. So, do they disagree with each other? not at all.

Faith is not a law. It is the work of God. It is grace not law.:)
 
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unkern

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The law was already in existence and therefore, already instituted. How are we to establish the law based on grace?

Faith is not a law. It is the work of God. It is grace not law.:)

True - the law was established before, but so was faith. Faith has been around just as long.

We establish the law based on grace because we need grace for what? Grace is for sin. How do you commit sin unless you have broken the law? we need grace because we broke the law.

Faith is not a law, but it is in the law.
 
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Hentenza

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True - the law was established before, but so was faith. Faith has been around just as long.

We establish the law based on grace because we need grace for what? Grace is for sin. How do you commit sin unless you have broken the law? we need grace because we broke the law.

Faith is not a law, but it is in the law.

Sure, but the sins of the law are no longer imputed into the believer's account because of Christ's once and for all atonement, therefore, as believers, we are no longer under the law but under grace.
 
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unkern

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Sure, but the sins of the law are no longer imputed into the believer's account because of Christ's once and for all atonement, therefore, as believers, we are no longer under the law but under grace.

Exactly, in the Messiah our sins can be atoned for. Through this we are able to die to our flesh where the punishment for our sins live (law of sin and death) and live spiritually, obedient to G-d's laws, and righteous. Its in the spirit when the flesh has died that grace comes in play, but when we are in flesh we are under the laws that punish us.
 
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Hentenza

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Exactly, in the Messiah our sins can be atoned for. Through this we are able to die to our flesh where the punishment for our sins live (law of sin and death) and live spiritually, obedient to G-d's laws, and righteous. Its in the spirit when the flesh has died that grace comes in play, but when we are in flesh we are under the laws that punish us.

You lost me here. Are you saying that our bodies are under the law but our spirit is under grace? If so, please state the biblical support.

Also, you said "in the Messiah our sins can be atoned for". I think the proper wording would be, "in the Messiah our sins are atoned for". That is the promise, therefore, it is absolute. :)
 
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