What do YOU think?

[morningstar2651]

Well, Skummer asked for it, and here it is. I hope you enjoy reading...I'll try to underline the most important parts. Do not confuse divination with the frauds you see on TV. Keep in mind that divination is symbolic; not literal.

Divination
The methodology for practicing the divinatory skills seems to divide into two categories: the first is the observation and interpretation on natural phenomena, and the second is the observation and interpretation of man-made "voluntary" phenomena. Natural phenomena includes two major subcategories of activity: astrology, and hepatoscopy. To a lesser degree the observation of the following occurrences also can be listed under natural phenomena: unexpected storms, particular cloud formations, birth monstrosities in both man and animal, howling or unnatural actions in dogs, and night-marish dreams. Man-made or "voluntary" phenomena is defined as being deliberately produced for the sole purpose of soothsaying and includes such acts as necromancy, pouring oil into a basin of water to observe the formation of bubbles and rings in the receptacle, shooting arrows, casting lots, and numerous other acts.


Many practitioners today do not feel signs of divination are absolute or fixed, but believe they still have free choices in their future. They believe divination helps them in making better choices.

The Law of Finite Senses
The Law of Finite Senses states that one's senses are finite. They are limited to the amount of information which one can absorb and process at any given time. Simply put, one is pretty sure he does not have all data available on which to base a judgment.

The Law of Infinite Data
The Law of Infinite Data states that there is always new information for one to learn. The sources of knowledge are limitless if one wishes to tap them. This law can stimulate one to improve his capacities. It can also serve as a warning that one cannot learn or know everything, so it is best to limit one's visions at times, and new dangers can always appear.

The Law of Infinite Universes
The Law of Infinite Universes states that each person sees his universe or world a different way; therefore, no two people have identical views of the world. All people do not receive the same information or data; if they do, they view it differently, thus making for an endless number of universes.

 

[Skummer]

A person healing themself with thought and belief is magic. In a placebo, it's not the sugar pills that cure the patient...but the patient's own mind. You can slap any scientific term that pleases you onto this phenomenon. Whether you call it the placebo effect or an autogenic response is irrelevant. Magic is defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will.

A person can send cancer into remission through the placebo effect. This healing isn't brought to pass by sugar pills, this healing is brought to pass by the will of the patient -- by magic. You don't need tarot cards or crystals to use magic. All you need is a mind.

On a sidenote, I'd also like to point out that you're using a strawman argument, plurium interrogationum, Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Since it is not enough for you that I prove magic exists, I'll comment on your questions.

I think your definition of magic and mine are very different. When I say occultism is dubious I am referring to the extraordinary claims that many make such as true astral projection, chronomancy, necromancy, and even telekinesis. I do however believe in hypnosis and have practiced it many times myself, but I've never thought of it as occultic.

Honestly, if "magic" really is not supernatural but merely placebo effect and/or hypnosis, I could accept that as genuine. It has not been my observation however that this is the definition employed by most occultists.

 

[Skummer]

I'd like to clarify my position a bit more on this subject.

Certain fields such as occultism, religion, and even martial arts stand out from most other fields of study in that they often attract people who seek wisdom, knowledge, sometimes power, and often the esoteric. Many times these people desperately want to believe in what they've chosen to follow. Because of this, they can suspend their disbelief concerning what would seem to be outrageous claims.

Now I'm not saying that everybody who does these thing is a sheep. What I'm saying is that it is quite natural for humans to favour knowledge they hold in high esteem even if faced with evidence to the contrary (cognitive dissonance). This unfortunately creates a situation wherein critical thinking is applied less and less.

This, I believe, is why these 3 fields in particular are absolutely rife with dubious claims and outright frauds. Unfortunately, I am one of those people who is attracted to these sorts of things, and I've been suckered in all 3.

You wouldn't believe some of the **** I've heard and seen in martial arts. Some of this stuff makes occultic claims look run of the mill. The good news about martial arts however is that you can simply fight and see what works and what doesn't. Although the people who make supernatural claims usually won't spar at all. I wonder why...

But anyway, because all of us are potentially susceptible to the type of thinking described above, we should always be willing to put our beliefs to the test as best we can. It's far too easy to fall into delusion if we aren't vigilant.

So while I'll not likely be supporting the supernatural claims of occultists any time soon, if that's what makes you happy, then knock yourself out. But if you make extraordinay claims, you must provide extraordinary evidence if you want others to take your claims seriously.

 

[Montalban]

what's your take on things like ESP (telepathy, telekinesis and precognition), astral projection and clairvoyance?

also what's your take on tarot cards, runes and pendulums?

sent from god? fake and a waste of time? satan's tools? please explain why you feel/ believe the way you do.

all views welcome!

I already sent my views to you and you never responded!

 

[morningstar2651]

I'd like to clarify my position a bit more on this subject.

Certain fields such as occultism, religion, and even martial arts stand out from most other fields of study in that they often attract people who seek wisdom, knowledge, sometimes power, and often the esoteric. Many times these people desperately want to believe in what they've chosen to follow. Because of this, they can suspend their disbelief concerning what would seem to be outrageous claims.

Now I'm not saying that everybody who does these thing is a sheep. What I'm saying is that it is quite natural for humans to favour knowledge they hold in high esteem even if faced with evidence to the contrary (cognitive dissonance). This unfortunately creates a situation wherein critical thinking is applied less and less.

This, I believe, is why these 3 fields in particular are absolutely rife with dubious claims and outright frauds. Unfortunately, I am one of those people who is attracted to these sorts of things, and I've been suckered in all 3.

You wouldn't believe some of the **** I've heard and seen in martial arts. Some of this stuff makes occultic claims look run of the mill. The good news about martial arts however is that you can simply fight and see what works and what doesn't. Although the people who make supernatural claims usually won't spar at all. I wonder why...

But anyway, because all of us are potentially susceptible to the type of thinking described above, we should always be willing to put our beliefs to the test as best we can. It's far too easy to fall into delusion if we aren't vigilant.

So while I'll not likely be supporting the supernatural claims of occultists any time soon, if that's what makes you happy, then knock yourself out. But if you make extraordinay claims, you must provide extraordinary evidence if you want others to take your claims seriously.

I studied TKD under Grand Master Yong Chin Pak. He's dedicated his life to martial arts. He's a former Korean secret service self defense instructor. He's a 7th degree blackbelt in TKD, and a 6th degree in Hapkido and Judo. I've seen old pictures of him from the early 80's (1983 I think) where he punches through a stack of six boards and puts his head through a stack of four. He makes no claims of power, but the pictures I've seen speak for themselves -- he's unusually strong for a little old man.

My second example has been deceased for a few years, but here are a few videos. He is Master Morihei Ueshiba -- the creator of Aikido. Unfortunately, the site I usually post the videos from is down, and I'm having trouble finding my favorite -- Master Ueshiba showing a move to a child and then the child practicing it on Master Ueshiba.
* Videos (there are some amazing videos)
* Photos

So while I'll not likely be supporting the supernatural claims of occultists any time soon, if that's what makes you happy, then knock yourself out.

Most of the people who make claims of great occultic power tend to be "attention harlots". They would claim anything to get them 15 seconds of fame. I'm glad that you are cautious of what you believe in.

 

[Skummer]

I studied TKD under Grand Master Yong Chin Pak. He's dedicated his life to martial arts. He's a former Korean secret service self defense instructor. He's a 7th degree blackbelt in TKD, and a 6th degree in Hapkido and Judo. I've seen old pictures of him from the early 80's (1983 I think) where he punches through a stack of six boards and puts his head through a stack of four. He makes no claims of power, but the pictures I've seen speak for themselves -- he's unusually strong for a little old man.

My second example has been deceased for a few years, but here are a few videos. He is Master Morihei Ueshiba -- the creator of Aikido. Unfortunately, the site I usually post the videos from is down, and I'm having trouble finding my favorite -- Master Ueshiba showing a move to a child and then the child practicing it on Master Ueshiba.
* Videos (there are some amazing videos)
* Photos

Most of the people who make claims of great occultic power tend to be "attention harlots". They would claim anything to get them 15 seconds of fame. I'm glad that you are cautious of what you believe in.

I'm definitely familiar with Ueshiba. My judo instructor took aikido for many years.
I practiced kung fu for 8 years or so a and focused primarily on chin na techniques. Chin na is technically very similar to aikido.

I believe it was Kyokushin karate founder Mas Oyama who refered to Ueshiba as having a divine level of skill. Unfortunately, much of aikido has gone the way of tai chi, ninjutsu, etc and become more like a spiritual pursuit rather than a martial art.

You know, prior to WW2, Ueshiba's school in Japan was often refered to as Jigoku Dojo (hell school) due to the intense training. Today however, most aikido schools don't even spar <sigh>.

When I mentioned crazy claims though, I was mostly talking about the guys who claim to knock people out without touching them, start fires with a stare, etc. In fact, there was recently a guy who claimed to be able to physically move other people without touching them. He even went so far as to claim he could do this through walls.

Anyway, this guy agreed to a scientific test in which he'd demonstrate his so-called "empty force". He reviewed the conditions of the test and agreed to them. Well, anyway, you can guess what happened.

Here is the story describing the situation:
http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm

Some clips of others performing dubious feats:
Knocking people out with a yell
http://www.markklineskarate.com/ClipsnEvents.htm

There's a clip floating around the net in which a news crew goes to a dojo that claims no-touch knockouts. The instructor easily knocks out his own students, but for some reason, his "chi" doesn't work on the news people. So, the news crew gets this instructor to visit the local sport jiujitsu school and try his knockouts on them. Not one suffered any effect at all. I think this clip is an excellent demo of placebo effect in action since the claimant's students believe and are affected, but those who doubt seem to be immune. Unfortunately, the site that normally hosts it (bullshido.net) has removed its downloads temporarily.

 

[morningstar2651]

Wow...serious attention harlots.

It's almost guaranteed that anyone with powerful skill in magic or martial arts would have also achieved the wisdom to keep their mouth shut about it.

 

[Montalban]

It's almost guaranteed that anyone with powerful skill in magic or martial arts would have also achieved the wisdom to keep their mouth shut about it.

Why? Wouldn't that be selfish?

By the way, no one's responded to my question I sent by telepathy earlier!

 

[pensive]

Why? Wouldn't that be selfish?

Not at all. Consider this. Suppose that I really was able to do half the things people believe I think I could do. Or just suppose my magic as I understood it works and everyone knew it.

I'd have people running for me to "fix" their problems for them. I'd have people running to me to settle their petty squabbles with others. I'd have people running to me to basically make their lives easy so that they could continue being lazy and not taking responsibility for their own lives.

And on the flip side, I'd have people who were afraid of me and would want to destroy me.

Now, doesn't a bit of discretion or silence sound like a good idea?

Neither idea implies that I won't help others. It just puts me in a position to be a bit more selective in who I help and how. I can focus my energies on decent people who are doing their best but might need a little help from time to time rather than getting run ragged by what Anton LaVey referred to as "psychic vampires."

 

[morningstar2651]

Why? Wouldn't that be selfish?

By the way, no one's responded to my question I sent by telepathy earlier!

Most often telepathy occurs spontaneously in incidents of crisis where a relative or friend has been injured or killed in an accident. An individual is aware of the danger to the other person from a distance. Such information seems to come in different forms as in thought fragments, like something is wrong; in dreams, visions, hallucinations, mental images, in clairaudience, or in words that pop into the mind.

Telepathy, like the other forms of psychic phenomena is elusive and difficult to test systematically. Enough evidence is available to reasonably substantiate the phenomenon does exist. But, quantifying it seems to be another matter. The phenomenon is closely connected to the emotional states on both the sender and receiver which creates difficulty in replicating experimental results. Attitudinal factors also influence the phenomenon. The best that researchers can hope for is to have supportive and receptive subjects in experiments that produce similar results.

Perhaps Aurora isn't receptive, or, perhaps you're just mocking telepaths. If it is the latter, I ask that you respect others' beliefs, no matter how absurd you find them.

As for being selfish -- absolutely not. Along with pensive's post are the people that approach you asking you to perform black magic for them. For example: "Make so-and-so love me!". It's quite similar to how lottery winners discover how many friends they never knew they had before they were rich...and all their buddies want a piece of the winnings.

 

[ravenscape]

I hesitate to even bring this up because it is purely anecdotal. On December 24 I watched the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" on DVD with some friends. I hadn't seen it before. I seldom watch movies in theaters preferring the comfort of home. I thought the science in the movie was fair to the best of my ability to judge. Tropospheric atmosphere suddenly pulled down to the earth's surface is one of the few explanations for the frozen mammoth found in Siberia a few years ago.

But as I watched the movie I felt a sense of impending danger. Not of cold. But the camera shots of rising water and floods made me uneasy. Anyway since then I've pondered whether it was some kind of premonition. The reality of the tsunami is so much worse than a sterile movie. But the wall of water sweeping through the streets and hurling cars and buses in its path kept recurring in my mind that night.

I have been uneasy about images either in the media or that simply come to my mind before and nothing happened. Or I changed my plans and may have avoided a bad situation even though I never knew what might have happened if only.

The last time I felt something quite like this was several years ago. It was a regime change in another country. The results were worse than anything I pictured and I was rather naive at the time thinking that a new leader chosen by popular acclaim would of course be a good change. I brushed away my misgivings for that very reason. Idealism. In a matter of weeks I knew how right my premonition had been and how wrong my idealism.

Nothing provable. Nothing I even thought to voice to someone. Nothing useful to be done with the information even if I had recognized the importance. Just a premonition.

 

[Starcrystal]

^ I watched Day after Tomorrow a couple of months ago. I agree with you about a Tsunami and/or flooding of the coasts. In fact someone on my group warned about this recently when I mentioned feeling the need to move off the coast and go inland. This has also been predicted in Native prophecies going back 10 years or more.
Last night we went out stargazing and saw 5 very large shooting stars within 1 hour. Every time we go to that place on this dark rural road we see multiple falling stars. Some people have speculated that a tsunami could be triggered by an asteroid or large meteor impacting the ocean. With all the large shooting stars recently it makes me wonder if this isn't a sign.

 

[Amalcas]

Actually, there are predictions that a certain volcano in the Atlantic Ocean may cause a massive tidal wave, capable of flooding the entire east coast miles (50-100, don't remember) inland. However, it is predicted that it might happen in 100,000 years.
About comets -- I'm no astrophysicist, but I think a comet large enough to cause a massive tsunami would screw (appropriate terminology right now, in my opinion) us all anyway if it landed on land. So perhaps it woudl be better for it to land in the ocean, and only kill those in low lying areas. Well, thats grim.