What do YOU think?

[morningstar2651]

what's your take on things like ESP (telepathy, telekinesis and precognition), astral projection and clairvoyance?

also what's your take on tarot cards, runes and pendulums?

sent from god? fake and a waste of time? satan's tools? please explain why you feel/ believe the way you do.

all views welcome!

Time for my magic spiel! Hopefully this post won't be deleted -- it's not like I'm actually going to teach anonymous people how to use magic.

When you hear the word "magic", you think of supernatural powers. Magic is not supernatural.

Why?

su·per·nat·u·ral (adjective)
Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

"What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will." -- Aleister Crowley

Fake and a waste of time?

Not from my experiences...but testimonials aren't much proof. The three magi were astrologers. Their gifts of frankincense and myrrh have magical uses, and quite a good one when used together.

Want scientific proof? Consider the placebo effect. About 30% of people who receive a placebo will get better or experience an improvement in their symptoms beacuse they believe they will. This is an event in nature which is brought to pass by Will.

Satan's tools?

Why would Satan's tools include the ability to heal and protect others?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic — Arthur C. Clarke

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

No, it doesn't hurt me. Philosophical taoism makes no extraordinary claims, but rather is an observance of the reality of nature's way.

Does it hurt you to be confronted with the harsh reality that occultism very likely isn't real? Are we to seek for genuine truth or allow ourselves to be decieved by delusion? I think the answer to that should be obvious.

What is genuine truth?

Have you seen it?

If so please tell me how it looks like.

 

[jennm]

OOH another good thread!
Well, my take on the whole subject, I do believe for the most part. One because both my mother and I are gifted. We are very sensitive to the little hints and clues that are all around us everywhere. We don't talk to the dead, or do Tarot but we do believe. There are alot of fakes out there of course, but there are some who have the gift. Tool of satan? Well can be if in the wrong hands.
I usually just say it is my gut instinct, but I have learned that for me it is either Guardian Angles or God Above telling me things I need to know, or pushing me in the right direction. Be it protecting me or aiding me to succeed. My mother can sence spirts and ghosts, I can too but I push it away, I do not like it. Is it fake? Well no, I can not help it, it is not my decision, it just happens but then it is my decision to go with it or push it away. I can not walk in a cemetary because there is too much energy trying to get a message through or try to just communicate.My mother can also read my mind, I can read heres and she has very strong ESP.
Alot of this is mind over matter, your thoughts, your mond is very strong and yes just like a placibo effect that works very well even with my own husband and child, it is in your mind.
All this and I am Christian, I love God and he built me this way, I am not evil nor do I have evil thoughts because I know how delicate the whole gifted thing can be, I protect my self and so does my mother and we never start something that we do not want to finish.
Yes there are fakes and scams out there, but there are fakes of everything out there.
All I know is that for me and my mother it is very real.
God knows what it takes to get a message accross to you, a sign if you will. I know that if I see either an eagle or a red tailed hawk that what ever I was thinking about I need to do, to put fire under it and work at it, to just do it. If I see a buzzard then what ever I was thinking about needs to end or stop or I need to finish/clean up. The natural world speaks to me the loudest, but not always.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Skummer,

My intention is not to start a fight with you.

I am philosophically oriented too.

My only point is your post was arrogantly dismissive of astrology, ESP etc.

 

[Skummer]

What is genuine truth?

Have you seen it?

If so please tell me how it looks like.

Truth is, for the most part, what we can observe with our natural senses or with the help of technology. It's not perfect, but it beats the hell out of superstition.

Let's remember we're not talking about mere belief here. We're talking about humans claiming to have the ability to affect the world or divine the future by supernatural means. Have you ever seen the supernatural? Can you make the supernatural show itself to others? Why should I believe in that which no one can prove, even though if true, it should be provable?

I am not ignorant of these things. I grew up in a home with occultism. I practiced for many years. Read tarot daily, etc. At that time I'd have sworn by its effectiveness. I gradually learned more and more, and began to question more and more. Ultimately I had to accept that neither my practice nor that of any of the others I knew, was having any real effect. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but truth is preferable to delusion.

 

[Skummer]

Skummer,

My intention is not to start a fight with you.

I am philosophically oriented too.

My only point is your post was arrogantly dismissive of astrology, ESP etc.

I understand why it might seem arrogant. However, I have a real problem with frauds and charlatans who use superstition to profit or make themselves into some mystical pseudo-sage. Those who practice these things won't step forward and offer real evidence. Why? If divination works it should be provable beyond the chance for coincidence.

Much of my family has been involved in occultic things for a long time. My sister is still practicing to this day. Honestly, I wish occultism did seem authentic. It would provide faith for something more than this flesh life.

But anyway, my demeanor is not arrogant, but actually quite passive and amiable in real life. I am however fiercely skeptical of any exraordinary claim that doesn't offer evidence.

 

[morningstar2651]

All the things listed in the OP are apparently nonsense. I say this because there's no evidence to the contrary. People often make grand claims of occultic power, but why can't they prove it? Seems that something like divination could stand up to the scrutiny of science if it really works, but alas, it hasn't as yet.

I think most of these claims are merely the result of a "skinner box" type situation.

argumentum ad ignorantium & fallacy of negative proof

You disprove nothing.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

I agree with you Skummer.

I don't personally know anything about them.

I've seen many poor persons making a living out of it on the roadsides of India.

When the next meal becomes a big question, truth, reality, and logic takes a backseat.

The only reality is the stoamch for many people.

I don't have an opinion on people making millions with the occult.

 

[morningstar2651]

Skummer, here is your proof that magic exists. Thank you medical science.

Want scientific proof? Consider the placebo effect. About 30% of people who receive a placebo will get better or experience an improvement in their symptoms beacuse they believe they will. This is an event in nature which is brought to pass by Will.

 

[pensive]

What I find interesting is that often, skeptics resort to what strikes me as a straw-man style of argumentation. They have an idea about what these things (ESP, divination, etc) are supposed to be like and how they are supposed to work. Then when they demonstrate that they don't work that way (or point to the complete lack of empirical evidence that would support it working that way), they announce they've disproven it. The problem with this approach is that they rarely make sure that's the way everyone making such claims actually believes it works.

Take tarot, for example. I work with tarot from time to time. I do not use it in the manner that most people imagine, however. I don't use tarot to "tell the future." To be honest with you, I don't believe that the future is set in stone, so it doesn't make sense to me to use anything to predict an ever-changing future. I suppose I could (and to some extent) use it to determine possible future events that are likely based on the present patterns, but I don't have any great love for that (as it encourages the passive living of my life rather than taking control of my own destiny).

Instead, I tend to use tarot as a tool for meditation, consideration, and inspiration. I use it to point out aspects of the given situation that I might not have considered. In effect, I'm using it as a tool to help myself make more informed decisions.

I believe Jung spent a great deal of time studying and theorizing about the tarot. A lot of what I understand of his philosophies (and I grant you that my understanding is poor and based on second-hand information) tends to fit my approach. In his theories, tarot is just another tool to help stimulate a "conversation" with one's unconscious mind, effectively bringing inspiration and insight about one's life, choices, and circumstances to surface consciousness. In a lot of respects, I tend to agree with him.

Can I prove any of this. I doubt it. Then again, I have no desire to try. After all, I don't expect anyone to believe me, let alone try and convince anyone to believe me. I'm willing to let them draw and keep their own conclusions. I'll leave "proofs" to those who are interested in converting others to their way of thinking.

 

[Skummer]

argumentum ad ignorantium & fallacy of negative proof

You disprove nothing.

No one attempted to disprove anything. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim.

 

[Starcrystal]

I do believe science has demonstrated some proofs of "supernatural" things. I know astral projection (Out of body experience) is true because I've done it and have been able to see things that are far away from my body with accuracy. Interestingly enough some doctors found that applying a slight electrical impulse to the right angular gyrus of the brain triggered out of body experiences.

Physical science only deals with tangible concrete evidence. Theoretical physics gets a bit closer to the truth of unseen workings. But that's just it, how do you measure or detect something with 3rd dimensional equipment when what you're trying to prove operates in the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th on up to the 12th dimension? Such things are only discernable and accessed by those who are aware spiritually. I don't like the word "gifted" because it makes it sound as if only certain people are able to have such "gifts" - actually we are ALL capable, and it is us who must awaken to the awareness of these things. These "gifts" are NATURAL and AVAILABLE to ALL.

Now as far as card readers and psychics, many are fakes and use these practices to make money. (I'm not including Isis-Astoroth here, because she says she's accurate) There are other mediums who use stage props to mimic spirits. So some is fake. But the reality of such things in general is not. It's quite real.

 

[Skummer]

Skummer, here is your proof that magic exists. Thank you medical science.

Occultism is a placebo effect? I don't doubt that this is what convinces people some types of occultism is real, but it doesn't explain claims of affecting the external world. How does divination work? Talismans? Evocation of spirits?

If occultism really is just a placebo effect, then why not take up self-hypnosis and drop the occult trappings?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

While the human brain/mind is capable of transcendental philosophy, why just limit it to philosophy?

 

[morningstar2651]

Occultism is a placebo effect? I don't doubt that this is what convinces people some types of occultism is real, but it doesn't explain claims of affecting the external world. How does divination work? Talismans? Evocation of spirits?

If occultism really is just a placebo effect, then why not take up self-hypnosis and drop the occult trappings?

No.

The placebo effect is magic with 3 more syllables. What I find so lovely about it is that it is recognised by medical science. Changing the physical plane through will and belief is magic.

The Placebo effect is magic...magic is NOT a placebo effect.

I give you proof, and you refuse to accept it...I am not surprised.

I wonder why I even bother trying to prove it to you...you'll never accept it. You don't WANT to accept it. You don't want to admit that you might be wrong.

 

[Skummer]

No.

The placebo effect is magic with 3 more syllables. What I find so lovely about it is that it is recognised by medical science. Changing the physical plane through will and belief is magic.

The Placebo effect is magic...magic is NOT a placebo effect.

I give you proof, and you refuse to accept it...I am not surprised.

I wonder why I even bother trying to prove it to you...you'll never accept it. You don't WANT to accept it. You don't want to admit that you might be wrong.

You haven't given any proof at all. There's no doubt that humans can make themselves experience things through will. I believe its called an autogenic response. However, this does not address in any way the ability to affect the external world.

If you have actual proof of say divination or a talisman to create wealth whose affect is beyond the realm of coincidence, please contact James Randi and collect your million dollars. www.randi.org

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Hey, check this site out...

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp.html

......This guy tricks but is not right.

 

[pensive]

Hey, check this site out...

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp.html

......This guy tricks but is not right.

Personally, I prefer this one....

http://www.realmagic.net/dp/1-1.htm

It's neat and its "magic" involves a simple trick of mathematics.

(A simple trick I got to learn about back in my abstract algebra course in college, no less!)

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Personally, I prefer this one....

http://www.realmagic.net/dp/1-1.htm

It's neat and its "magic" involves a simple trick of mathematics.

(A simple trick I got to learn about back in my abstract algebra course in college, no less!)

Nice little lesson in arithmetic progression.

 

[morningstar2651]

You haven't given any proof at all. There's no doubt that humans can make themselves experience things through will. I believe its called an autogenic response. However, this does not address in any way the ability to affect the external world.

If you have actual proof of say divination or a talisman to create wealth whose affect is beyond the realm of coincidence, please contact James Randi and collect your million dollars. www.randi.org

A person healing themself with thought and belief is magic. In a placebo, it's not the sugar pills that cure the patient...but the patient's own mind. You can slap any scientific term that pleases you onto this phenomenon. Whether you call it the placebo effect or an autogenic response is irrelevant. Magic is defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will.

A person can send cancer into remission through the placebo effect. This healing isn't brought to pass by sugar pills, this healing is brought to pass by the will of the patient -- by magic. You don't need tarot cards or crystals to use magic. All you need is a mind.

On a sidenote, I'd also like to point out that you're using a strawman argument, plurium interrogationum, Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Since it is not enough for you that I prove magic exists, I'll comment on your questions.