What do you think warning jumps around

[Avniel]

My personal issue with the police department seems a stereotypical macho man or ego sort of issue. I just have a belief that people have the right to take care of their children, protect them and shelter them from certain aspects of society. I personally have the belief that we as parents have a natural right to protect our children from oppression verbally or physically. I think that's a God given right a moral responsibility one that made Moses go back with the guidance of God.

I think the fear we as black parents have and the stress is double just based on our race. I mean on one end we have to fight against the negative tv portrayals and how they affect who our children portray themselves to be, as all parents do. We have to also fight against a media character assignation of what blackness and the black experience in America is. We went from a different world and the Cosby show to love and hip hop and shows like the Parker's, they portray us in our most ignorant light. I'm not saying that those stereotypical imagery isn't a reality but it's not the entire reality. There are more black men in college than jail, most black men making 100k marry black women. We are fed lies so we can be complacent with mediocracy. As parents we have to teach our children they can be anything they want to be. There are those that allows themselves to fall victim to the stereotypes but those are the few.

On top of that we have to worry about being stereotyped and treated unprofessionally. I mean this is from the grocery store all the way to police officers. I was in a grocery store and explained I wanted half on my card and half with cash. I was told they needed me ebt card to see what could be purchased on that first. My parents are Jamaican I would rather starve than eat anything purchased by uncle sam's exploitation of a black slave mentality..................

*side bar*
I hate when people say that slavery happened so many years ago how can slavery still affect a people. I don't think people realize how many different slave mentalities within the community that cause mental pain. There is this light skin vs dark skin thing going, that comes from slavery. Children grow up hating being dark skinned feeling like they are less but as you grow up and enter a circle of a more educated persons that dark skin becomes attractive. Sadly there are more examples such as the term good hair and nappy. Those are slave terms we continue to use and lower our children's self esteem and teaching them they are less than. A lack of respect for the need of a father in children's lives is another example. The slave family was often times tore apart left without a father. We carried that on past slavery a good deal of our children are growing up without fathers. Now there are those in that situation by change but there are women and men that feel like these arrangements are perfectly normal. With the history of separations of families by force it's not a shock that there is an issue there. These are a few of the issues we struggle with still from slavery. There is personal choice but not everyone is strong enough to break the tradition...it's a sad fact.

................I feel like sometimes I can't wear open toe sandals with some jeans and T-shirt with a hole in it to the grocery store. I have to wear expensive clothes and carry myself at a professional level every time I exit my community. Then when I am in my community and I can relax I am then subjected to the same type of oppression I experience outside of it. We claim this is a Christian country when black people can't even dress as humble people without being treated as criminals.

My main issue with the police is they are unprofessional. With the shootings I can't say they weren't justified. However I believe with the right professional training some situations can be avoided more peacefully. Professionalism builds networks in a certain area or market, unprofessionalism destroys relationships. How can you PROTECT AND SERVE an area that hates you, thinks you hate them, interactions mostly are negative, you have reputation of rudeness and they end up feeling bullied. What is accomplished? The TAX PAYING CITIZENS don't trust you. They see you as an outside force sent to oppress them. Nobody helps you and nobody trusts you however you do gain a fear. Respect is walking down the street and getting a hand shake and maybe a hug fear is walking towards aggression. There is no reason I should fear the police I should feel safe when I see them. I do not.

As a husband sometimes in front of my wife I do feel like I'm getting punked. I feel as though my manhood is not respected. It's understood you have a job but I'm a man like you are a man all of that extra aggression isn't needed. There's no reason to be disrespectful even to criminals, it's your job. Profanity is not needed, yelling isn't needed unless there is aggression, pushing and slamming on routine traffic stops all of that isn't needed.

As spouses and just people I hope you share this perspective with your love one's. Best police interaction I've had I got a ticket I was a Mr. he was an officer, he asked me "may I please" "I would like to" and "thank you for your Cooperations" then he did the regular routine. I apologized he told me to "please drive safe" I informed I would and he told me to "enjoy my day." That's professional....

 

[Darkhorse]

I'm speechless!

I've run into some bad cops with bad attitudes also (I'm white), but I understand it's more likely if you're black.

We all have a long way to go - some more than others.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Cops seem to think black men commit more violent crimes as a percentage of population than other groups so they treat them like they could be dangerous. I don't know where they got that idea from.

 

[LinkH]

I have a friend whose white who lives in the LA area. He owned apartments and worked on them sometimes and worked in the construction industry. He had a big, kind of old pick-up truck, and a Porche. He got stopped in the Porche and the police were friendly and let him off with a warning. But when he drove the truck, they treated him like a criminal. He saw people stuck on the side of the road, and when someone with a big truck offered to help them, the police waived them on. He complained about the police rudeness to him. They said there were people in old trucks selling drugs in that area.

I don't know what it's like to be black in the US and interact with police. Police are people, too, and have their own prejudices and their own experiences. No matter where we are from, we tend to be more comfortable with people who are like us, too. So white police who see white people may treat them differently, as sad as that is for black people.

I also hadn't thought about that need to dress sharply if you leave your neighborhood to be considered a professional. I've noticed that some black people do like to dress sharply and wear nice shoes. I can see now a motivation for it. If you are dressed in a nice, conservative manner and you encounter the police, you are less likely to have a problem, and less likely to be viewed with suspicion if you go into a convenience store or something like that.

The Cosby show did present some positive things for young black people to aspire to on TV. I don't remember anything trashy on the show. There was a solid, two parent home, and the family got along pretty well. The parents were involved in the children's lives, and both parents had really good jobs (a doctor and a lawyer.) I also appreciate the fact that Bill Cosby tried to encourage good morals from early in his career. I had my kids watch episodes of Fat Albert when they came on TV. The characters in the show are more from a low income area, probably, playing in a junk yard. The show taught good moral lessons, unlike some cartoons made today.

 

[grasping the after wind]

My personal issue with the police department seems a stereotypical macho man or ego sort of issue. I just have a belief that people have the right to take care of their children, protect them and shelter them from certain aspects of society. I personally have the belief that we as parents have a natural right to protect our children from oppression verbally or physically. I think that's a God given right a moral responsibility one that made Moses go back with the guidance of God.

I think the fear we as black parents have and the stress is double just based on our race. I mean on one end we have to fight against the negative tv portrayals and how they affect who our children portray themselves to be, as all parents do. We have to also fight against a media character assignation of what blackness and the black experience in America is. We went from a different world and the Cosby show to love and hip hop and shows like the Parker's, they portray us in our most ignorant light. I'm not saying that those stereotypical imagery isn't a reality but it's not the entire reality. There are more black men in college than jail, most black men making 100k marry black women. We are fed lies so we can be complacent with mediocracy. As parents we have to teach our children they can be anything they want to be. There are those that allows themselves to fall victim to the stereotypes but those are the few.

On top of that we have to worry about being stereotyped and treated unprofessionally. I mean this is from the grocery store all the way to police officers. I was in a grocery store and explained I wanted half on my card and half with cash. I was told they needed me ebt card to see what could be purchased on that first. My parents are Jamaican I would rather starve than eat anything purchased by uncle sam's exploitation of a black slave mentality..................

*side bar*
I hate when people say that slavery happened so many years ago how can slavery still affect a people. I don't think people realize how many different slave mentalities within the community that cause mental pain. There is this light skin vs dark skin thing going, that comes from slavery. Children grow up hating being dark skinned feeling like they are less but as you grow up and enter a circle of a more educated persons that dark skin becomes attractive. Sadly there are more examples such as the term good hair and nappy. Those are slave terms we continue to use and lower our children's self esteem and teaching them they are less than. A lack of respect for the need of a father in children's lives is another example. The slave family was often times tore apart left without a father. We carried that on past slavery a good deal of our children are growing up without fathers. Now there are those in that situation by change but there are women and men that feel like these arrangements are perfectly normal. With the history of separations of families by force it's not a shock that there is an issue there. These are a few of the issues we struggle with still from slavery. There is personal choice but not everyone is strong enough to break the tradition...it's a sad fact.

................I feel like sometimes I can't wear open toe sandals with some jeans and T-shirt with a hole in it to the grocery store. I have to wear expensive clothes and carry myself at a professional level every time I exit my community. Then when I am in my community and I can relax I am then subjected to the same type of oppression I experience outside of it. We claim this is a Christian country when black people can't even dress as humble people without being treated as criminals.

My main issue with the police is they are unprofessional. With the shootings I can't say they weren't justified. However I believe with the right professional training some situations can be avoided more peacefully. Professionalism builds networks in a certain area or market, unprofessionalism destroys relationships. How can you PROTECT AND SERVE an area that hates you, thinks you hate them, interactions mostly are negative, you have reputation of rudeness and they end up feeling bullied. What is accomplished? The TAX PAYING CITIZENS don't trust you. They see you as an outside force sent to oppress them. Nobody helps you and nobody trusts you however you do gain a fear. Respect is walking down the street and getting a hand shake and maybe a hug fear is walking towards aggression. There is no reason I should fear the police I should feel safe when I see them. I do not.

As a husband sometimes in front of my wife I do feel like I'm getting punked. I feel as though my manhood is not respected. It's understood you have a job but I'm a man like you are a man all of that extra aggression isn't needed. There's no reason to be disrespectful even to criminals, it's your job. Profanity is not needed, yelling isn't needed unless there is aggression, pushing and slamming on routine traffic stops all of that isn't needed.

As spouses and just people I hope you share this perspective with your love one's. Best police interaction I've had I got a ticket I was a Mr. he was an officer, he asked me "may I please" "I would like to" and "thank you for your Cooperations" then he did the regular routine. I apologized he told me to "please drive safe" I informed I would and he told me to "enjoy my day." That's professional....

I find this profession of your life experience to be enlightening and helpful in understanding your situation and I thank you for it. We often disregard what others think or feel because it is different from our own experience. Much of what you have related resonates with me and I find that somehow reassuring in these troubled times. I know, from past encounters, that we are at different ends of the political spectrum but I am comforted by the fact that we still have much in common outside of that realm.

 

[Inkachu]

I agree with everything in your OP, Avniel. And I don't agree with you too often lol.

I find it sad that I feel like I can't approach a black person and ask them about their culture, their community, their beliefs, for fear I'll be labeled as racist and bigoted, when all I am is curious and wanting to know more about them. I'm not saying it's their fault, or my fault, or anyone's fault. It's just the way it seems to be, and that bothers me.

I understand that black communities tend to want to hold onto their "separation", they want to keep their own culture, their own traditions, etc. But it's a complicated issue when it stems from fear or aversion to the country they live in, rather than simply having an amicable co-existence with other people. It's an "us vs. them" mentality rather than "us alongside them".

I think it's sad that some communities have held onto the "dark skin vs light skin" and "nappy hair" beliefs. That is SO sad to me. It's like, your people have overcome so much and come so far, why would you want to stomp on that by perpetuating this type of thinking? Why do you think it is, Avniel? Do you have any theories?

FWIW I think you should be able to wear whatever clothes you want when you go out. I wouldn't even notice whether you were wearing jeans and a tshirt or not. That's what "I" wear, so that's normal to me. And the person who asked for your EBT card... that's just plain ignorance.

 

[Hetta]

Cops seem to think black men commit more violent crimes as a percentage of population than other groups so they treat them like they could be dangerous. I don't know where they got that idea from.

You need to actually look at the research and the facts - imagine that - and find out that statistically speaking, the police are more likely to arrest a black person for a crime than they are a white person. A white person may get a verbal warning and walk away, but a black person is more likely to be charged. This is particularly true for drug offenses. A wealthy white person will be sent away with a slapped wrist, a black person will be put through the system. When it comes to court, black people are more likely to get a jail sentence than a white person.

When you see that level of prejudice working, it's hardly surprising that the statistics are higher for black people committing crimes.

IOW, the actual commission of crime isn't higher for black people, it's the arrest and imprisonment rate that is higher.

Or do you honestly believe that black and white people are genetically different?

 

[akmom]

I don't think anyone seriously believes there is a genetic predisposition to crime. But there seems to be a socioeconomic one, and that is true for all ethnicities. So if you have any population that is socioeconomically disadvantaged, there may be a correlation. Since poverty is very much generational, and our society created barriers to economic success for its black citizens even after slavery was abolished, we can expect to see a lag in the economic recovery of black families and communities for a very long time. So we might actually be seeing higher rates of crime, not just higher rates of prosecution... and then stereotypes and prejudices play in and exacerbate those figures.

It's a vicious cycle. That's why we need to be diligent in seeing people as individuals and treat everyone respectfully.

 

[Hetta]

So we might actually be seeing higher rates of crime, not just higher rates of prosecution.

While I agree with the socio-economic analysis, there is hard evidence of institutional racism which absolutely does lead to a higher arrest/prosecution rate for minorities.

 

[DZoolander]

I think Hetta's point is entirely true.

I've always had good interactions with the police. The thing I'm not sure of, however, is what to most attribute that to.

Like I've said before, my dad was a criminal prosecutor for a long time, and I've got some family members that are cops. I was taught very early on how to interact with them on things like stops, etc.

I do not doubt, however, that my race factors into it (in combination with insights that my family was able to provide.)

I've done stuff (and gotten away with it) - that I'm sure would've brought a ton of crap on me had I been black. Heck - I remember when I was 16 years old and just got my driver's license (and was in that "drive for the sake of driving" mindset) - one night I took a turn and found myself in some industrial area around 1-2 am...and got lost. Off in the distance - I see some headlights coming toward me that quickly went out (obviously a cop trying to go un-noticed to see what I was up to).

I drove around until I found my way out - then started down the main street. I see the cop is still tailing me a ways back with his headlights out. Okay, he's gonna pull me over...right?

A block up I see a donut shop...so I pulled into it. The moment after I parked - here comes the police officer - lights going/siren chirping/etc. He tells me over the loudspeaker to get out of my car. Fine. I do.

He comes up to me "What are you doing?"

"Well, officer, I saw you tailing me since that industrial complex. I figured you wanted to pull me over. I saw a donut shop. I figured you probably would want to stop here next. Might as well kill two birds with one stone."

He looked at me kinda bewildered for a moment - then chuckled - and asked me what I was doing. I explained that I was being a stupid kid driving for the sake of driving, got lost, etc...and he told me to go home.

I have no doubt that my level of sarcasm probably would not have been as well received and that I would have just been sent on my way if I were a dark skinned black guy.

Why do I have no doubt? Because once again, my dad was a prosecutor, and he told me all about how the LAPD used to interact with black people back in the 60's and early 70's (before he ceased being a prosecutor - for problems it gave him). I remember him telling me about a cousin of mine who joined the force (and never showed any signs of racism before) - and within a year or two of being a cop she regularly talked about the 'insert n word here' etc.

So I do believe that there is an aspect of institutional racism. I can't attest to what it is now - but I do believe that things don't just go away.

 

[mkgal1]

So I do believe that there is an aspect of institutional racism. I can't attest to what it is now - but I do believe that things don't just go away.

I agree with this as well. I think there's truth to "the speed of the leader is the speed of the gang". If a police chief or the majority of the force has an attitude of racism, I believe that attitude is going to influence other's performance.

 

[Avniel]

I agree with everything in your OP, Avniel. And I don't agree with you too often lol.

I find it sad that I feel like I can't approach a black person and ask them about their culture, their community, their beliefs, for fear I'll be labeled as racist and bigoted, when all I am is curious and wanting to know more about them. I'm not saying it's their fault, or my fault, or anyone's fault. It's just the way it seems to be, and that bothers me.

I understand that black communities tend to want to hold onto their "separation", they want to keep their own culture, their own traditions, etc. But it's a complicated issue when it stems from fear or aversion to the country they live in, rather than simply having an amicable co-existence with other people. It's an "us vs. them" mentality rather than "us alongside them".

I think it's sad that some communities have held onto the "dark skin vs light skin" and "nappy hair" beliefs. That is SO sad to me. It's like, your people have overcome so much and come so far, why would you want to stomp on that by perpetuating this type of thinking? Why do you think it is, Avniel? Do you have any theories?

FWIW I think you should be able to wear whatever clothes you want when you go out. I wouldn't even notice whether you were wearing jeans and a tshirt or not. That's what "I" wear, so that's normal to me. And the person who asked for your EBT card... that's just plain ignorance.

I think we can certainly blame someone we should blame society and history. The reason you feel uncomfortable is because you are aware of certain factors that make you uncomfortable. I mean think about all names associated with black Americans are labeled as "ghetto" just because they don't fit into the Eurocentric ideal of a fitting name. Certain cultural traditions and happenings often times are made fun of so when we are questioned we automatically are defensive.

Me personally I feel as though it's difficult to keep ones culture and stay true to one's history. The reality is the black American is the most far removed from African tradition. Sometimes I do feel like there is this "hey it's ok do it the Eurocentric way it's better" type of attitude. There is nothing wrong with holding on to the cultural traditions that make up an culture.

The reason why is because most people think of slavery as a physical thing. However we forget about the mental health issues that slave master passed down to the slaves. The rapes, the starvation, the violence and not to mention the realization that they were not valued the same in the world. Slaves had to struggle with some major identity at least and heavy mental illness and personality disorders for sure. Those issues reinforced by systematic racism and made worse by everyone around. Of course when we learn more about our ancestors pre diaspora it gives us a certain confidence in our blackness. That's why it's so important for black men and women to understand and know our history.

You are right it is ignorance but that is what I experience everyday.

 

[Avniel]

You need to actually look at the research and the facts - imagine that - and find out that statistically speaking, the police are more likely to arrest a black person for a crime than they are a white person. A white person may get a verbal warning and walk away, but a black person is more likely to be charged. This is particularly true for drug offenses. A wealthy white person will be sent away with a slapped wrist, a black person will be put through the system. When it comes to court, black people are more likely to get a jail sentence than a white person.

When you see that level of prejudice working, it's hardly surprising that the statistics are higher for black people committing crimes.

IOW, the actual commission of crime isn't higher for black people, it's the arrest and imprisonment rate that is higher.

Or do you honestly believe that black and white people are genetically different?

What they use is the media to promote it. Once the media grabs on to something and give it to the people most people will bite. For example I don't know how many black women I have heard the "more black men in jail then college" but when you look at the stats it's wrong just propaganda. Blacks are targeted more and it's accepted because it's taught there is a criminal element in the black community.

 

[Autumnleaf]

You need to actually look at the research and the facts - imagine that - and find out that statistically speaking, the police are more likely to arrest a black person for a crime than they are a white person. A white person may get a verbal warning and walk away, but a black person is more likely to be charged. This is particularly true for drug offenses. A wealthy white person will be sent away with a slapped wrist, a black person will be put through the system. When it comes to court, black people are more likely to get a jail sentence than a white person.

When you see that level of prejudice working, it's hardly surprising that the statistics are higher for black people committing crimes.

IOW, the actual commission of crime isn't higher for black people, it's the arrest and imprisonment rate that is higher.

Or do you honestly believe that black and white people are genetically different?

I see. So its really police prejudice that is behind such things...

Murder Rate for Black Americans Is Four Times the National Average | Josh Sugarmann

Do you think police are letting white murderers off with a verbal warning and coroners are in on it too by misclassifying the cause of death for many white people?

 

[Hetta]

Do you think police are letting white murderers off with a verbal warning ..

Show me where I said that.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Show me where I said that.

You said:

You need to actually look at the research and the facts - imagine that - and find out that statistically speaking, the police are more likely to arrest a black person for a crime than they are a white person. A white person may get a verbal warning and walk away, but a black person is more likely to be charged. This is particularly true for drug offenses. A wealthy white person will be sent away with a slapped wrist, a black person will be put through the system. When it comes to court, black people are more likely to get a jail sentence than a white person.

When you see that level of prejudice working, it's hardly surprising that the statistics are higher for black people committing crimes.

IOW, the actual commission of crime isn't higher for black people, it's the arrest and imprisonment rate that is higher.

 

[Inkachu]

Thanks for your response, Avniel. That is really sad, to think of a people who feel so ashamed of what and who they are, when in reality, they're a unique and beautiful people. FWIW I find dark skin and natural hair to be particularly beautiful. I want to ask all these women I work with, who have weaves and wigs, "why do you want to cover up the amazing hair God gave you?" But I feel like I'm so far removed from them, that it would be considered beyond offensive for this white girl to even have an opinion. I look at the African American demographic and see this group of people who are struggling to find their place in society. Like it's considered traitorous to adopt the traditional American lifestyle because it has Caucasian, European roots. But then if you completely isolate yourself and stay on the outside fringes of the culture in which you live, are you doing yourself any favors? Where's the happy medium? Is it possible to function in American society and still maintain your ethnic pride, without coming across as belligerent or condescending? I think it is.

 

[akmom]

Good call. I think commenting negatively on anyone's choice of hairstyle would be rude. Then again, so is looking at an entire race with pity. I have two black relatives (by marriage) and they certainly aren't isolated or "struggling to find their place in society." They're well-adjusted, proud of their heritage, and have circles of black friends and Caucasian friends.

 

[LJSGM2]

"The Holy Spirit fully and forever satisfies the one who receives Him. He becomes within him a well of water springing up, ever springing up, into everlasting life. It is a great thing to have a well that you can carry with you; to have a well that is within you; to have your source of satisfaction, not in the things outside yourself, but in a well within and that is always within, and that is always springing up in freshness and power; to have our well of satisfaction and joy within us. We are then independent of our environment. It matters little whether we have health or sickness, prosperity or adversity, our source of joy is within and is ever springing" The Work and Power of the holy Spirit, R.A. Torrey

I'm sorry for what you are going through.

Let us not let men determine our value but only God. The wickedness of men is increasing at every hour in this generation. Let us be united as a church, Lord Jesus, I pray.

 

[Inkachu]

Good call. I think commenting negatively on anyone's choice of hairstyle would be rude. Then again, so is looking at an entire race with pity. I have two black relatives (by marriage) and they certainly aren't isolated or "struggling to find their place in society." They're well-adjusted, proud of their heritage, and have circles of black friends and Caucasian friends.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Some people are all too ready to get offended and defensive and turn things into a race war. This is what prevents people from having an open dialogue and learning about each other.

I don't look at an "entire race" with pity. I pity those who struggle with insecurity or feeling "less than" because of their race or their ancestor's experiences. Nowhere did I say "I pity all black people".

I will not respond further to you in this thread, Akmom.