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Economic exclusion was, at least, the first form of persecution...
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Economic exclusion was, at least, the first form of persecution......them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;...
Buying and selling faith in Christ is a manner of speaking...which Jesus uses by the way in Revelation 3:18. You aren't reading correctly yet in my view. This is a revelation and revelations need to be made plain...they are not meant to read strictly literally. Notice Jesus pointing out His symbolism in Revelation.Context is clear that the buying and selling is what people do in the kingdom of the beast not what Christians do with their faith in Christ. One cannot buy or sell faith in Christ, only have it or throw it away for faith in another christ.
I agree that getting the mark will be sin, but to insist that it will be a welfare state, you will have to tear "...that no one may buy or sell except..." out of your Bible.Sorry, no. Participating will be or may be sin, just like gambling or watching a hollywood movie or getting involved in politics,
but unbelief is the sin that condemns.
Oh, I see what you mean --- no, buying and selling WITH THE MARK , because they TRUSTED IN THE SYSTEM- they WORK within the devil's system (many do today),I agree that getting the mark will be sin, but to insist that it will be a welfare state, you will have to tear "...that no one may buy or sell except..." out of your Bible.
Buying and selling faith in Christ is a manner of speaking...which Jesus uses by the way in Revelation 3:18. You aren't reading correctly yet in my view. This is a revelation and revelations need to be made plain...they are not meant to read strictly literally. Notice Jesus pointing out His symbolism in Revelation.
BobRyan said: ↑
ok so no secret rapture - but still a 1 Thess 4:13-17 rapture at the 2nd coming -- called the 2nd coming event of Rev 19.
I understand that. I don't know why you feel the need to point that out to me. It's as though you think I only have a basic understanding of Scripture. FYI, I have been studying the Bible since 1996.
It wasn't necessary for you to do that.
Perhaps if you would change your approach there would be no misunderstanding of your intentions. There were no question marks, but only a doctrinal statement. If you want to know what a person believes, then ask a question.
Well I disagree that the buying and selling has anything to do with faith in Christ. It doesn't match the context at all. It is about buying and selling goods. The people that take the mark are not Christians. If they had been Christians, they abandoned that faith for a new and false faith in a false God. The ones that refuse the mark are Christians and they did not buy or sell that faith.
You must realize that it is the "buying and selling" of one's faith in Christ which will cause you to have the mark of the beast.
Amen brother and it absolutely blows my mind how certain people can actually believe the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the BeastWhat the mark is not is Sunday worship when most Christians go to church.
Amen brother and it absolutely blows my mind how certain people can actually believe the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.
The Sabbath
The gracious* Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God's (58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.) perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6;
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf
The Sabbath :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church
The judgment-hour message points particularly to the time when, as the last phase of His high-priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, Christ entered upon His work of judgment...
This message also calls on all to worship the Creator. God's call to worship must be seen in contrast to the summons to worship the beast and his image (Rev. 13:3, 8, 15). Soon everyone will have to make a choice between true and false worship—between worshiping God on His terms (righteousness by faith) or on our terms (righteousness by works). By commanding us "'to worship Him who made
heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water'" (Rev. 14:7; cf. Ex. 20:11), this message calls attention to the fourth commandment. It leads people into true worship of the Creator, an experience that involves honoring His memorial of Creation—the seventh-day Sabbath of the Lord, which He instituted at Creation and affirmed in the Ten Commandments (see chapter 19 of this book). The first angel's message, therefore, calls for the restoration of true worship by presenting before the world Christ the Creator and Lord of the Bible Sabbath. This is the sign of God's Creation—a sign neglected by the vast majority of His created beings.
Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . . The Remnant and Its Mission: 27-12.htm
This:
"One class will advocate a gospel of human devisings and will worship the beast and his image... The other class, in marked contrast, will live by the true gospel and 'keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus' (Rev. 14:9,12)... those who reject God's memorial of creatorship--the Bible Sabbath--choosing to worship and honor Sunday...will receive the mark of the beast."
Seventh-day Adventists Believe, p. 167, Review and Herald (1989).
* formerly beneficent
Amen brother and it absolutely blows my mind how certain people can actually believe the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who ...
This is getting ridiculous. Why do you argue so much? Why are you so defensive? You seem to have control issues.you did not ask a question in the post I was responding to -- I saw a point of agreement and posted it . to you. you were free to either agree or find a point where you have differences since I place both your statement and mine side-by-side. They looked the same to me.
I still have yet to see you agree or differ with that basic type of post ( other than to complain that it exists, which I find curious)
Again, this is a manner of speaking which you are becoming all entangled in by trying to read it literally. Revelations have to be made plain, they are riddle-like in nature as in the book of Daniel...the language of or rather interpretation of Revelation too must be made plain/interpreted. It is quite easy once one begins because one can see the nature of the riddle. All Scripture here is interpreted by Scripture. One can generally readily see how it goes together once you get started..much like putting together an easy puzzle.Well I disagree that the buying and selling has anything to do with faith in Christ. It doesn't match the context at all. It is about buying and selling goods. The people that take the mark are not Christians. If they had been Christians, they abandoned that faith for a new and false faith in a false God. The ones that refuse the mark are Christians and they did not buy or sell that faith.
But there is no "buying and selling faith" in Rev 13.
What is more the "beast" is the one stopping folks from "buying and selling" in Rev 13.
A lot of "Christians", every sunday church goers, have said they will take the mark, or are already living as if they did. A lot of pastors/teachers/ evangelists said publicly it is not the 'mark' so to do so - to go along with the government and even yes, get the chip. And some even said, contrary to all Scripture - "Don't worry if you take it" if it is the mark, you can repent later at your leisure and still get to heaven...The people that take the mark are not Christians.
Have you read in Scripture that reads "UNCOMPROMISING RIGHTEOUSNESS" ?This is getting ridiculous. Why do you argue so much? Why are you so defensive? You seem to have control issues.
It seems hard for you to admit you are wrong. Perhaps this might be why you are having trouble getting along with certain people in here. You come across as prideful. People generally don't like that kind of attitude. I think you need to change your approach.
Some snowflake will probably report me for telling you these things, but I feel it needs to be said. Honesty is important.
Revelation is basically a summary of the faith.
There need be no description of some buying and selling faith for it to be so,
The beast does not stop people from buying and selling
As Christians we only buy from Christ that pure gold He speaks of here in Revelation and we do not sell it, must not sell
BobRyan said: ↑
ok so no secret rapture - but still a 1 Thess 4:13-17 rapture at the 2nd coming -- called the 2nd coming event of Rev 19.
I understand that. I don't know why you feel the need to point that out to me. It's as though you think I only have a basic understanding of Scripture. FYI, I have been studying the Bible since 1996.
It wasn't necessary for you to do that.
Perhaps if you would change your approach there would be no misunderstanding of your intentions. There were no question marks, but only a doctrinal statement. If you want to know what a person believes, then ask a question.
This is getting ridiculous. Why do you argue so much?
It seems hard for you to admit you are wrong.
I am not asking for moral compromise, but a genuine openness to receive correction. I use the word "genuine" because in many cases where I have heard people say they are open to correction if it can be shown they are in error, when the time came to test them on that, they didn't change their view but even more firmly insisted on being right when they were blatantly wrong. That's called self-righteousness.Have you read in Scripture that reads "UNCOMPROMISING RIGHTEOUSNESS" ?
It is accurately in some translations.
It is necessary (or at least good and best and cleanest) for life, salvation , faith, and testimony of Jesus.
I already explained what I meant. Unfortunately, I can't help you get the point you missed. So this is where the discussion ends for us.Ok so then you are saying that maybe I should not have agreed with you so fast???... hmm I had not considered that option but you are making a pretty good case for it. I may end up agreeing with you on that point as well.
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