What do you think of Anglo-Papalism?

[JasonV]

Oh I could of sworn they were actually members but I could of misread that.

You may be confusing inter-communion agreements with "member" status. For example the Utrecht Union has an inter-communion agreement, which allows members of either church to commune in the other, and in some cases to share clergy when necessary or deemed appropriate.

 

[Zoness]

You may be confusing inter-communion agreements with "member" status. For example the Utrecht Union has an inter-communion agreement, which allows members of either church to commune in the other, and in some cases to share clergy when necessary or deemed appropriate.

Oh I'm starting to understand. Being in communion together means doctrinal agreement while taking communion with each other is just that. Ok sorry about that haha

 

[Albion]

a good reference source is AnglicansOnline at
http://anglicansonline.orghttp://anglicansonline.orghttp://anglicansonline.org

The site has all kinds of information, but also identifies the churches that are in the Communion, the ones that are in full communion status with the Anglican Communion (such as the Old Catholics of the Union of Utrecht), and more. There is also a page for a listing of Continuing Anglican churches although the list includes a lot of "paper" churches that are not Continuing Anglican churches and which are merely a few people with a website. I can imagine, however, that the hosts don't want to or can't be the judge of who's who and so just lists everyone who asks to be included. Interesting reading, though.

 

[Zoness]

Ok thanks

 

[ContraMundum]

No more need be said. That is a pretty accurate summary. I would however agree with you that what we are attempting to preserve is not the Anglicanism that developed following the death of Henry VIII.

Note: That last is my opinion only and would probably get me in trouble if I stated it publically in Church. However, I am pretty conversant in the history and I think it is an accurate statement.

I don't know if you would get in trouble for that, because it would depend on how you interpret it. Many of us hold our peace. Officially, the TAC is trying to preserve Anglicanism as a liturgical tradition and legitimate orthodox church body. It has been said that the Papacy is the only place where Anglican tradition will be preserved and respected. However, the reality is that it is likely to only preserve the Anglo-Catholic or Papalist interpretion of Anglicanism. Sad, really.

 

[ContraMundum]

I wish you the best within Anglicanism, whatever version of it that might end up being.

I will leave with one scriptural quote.

""For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:19-21, NASB95)

Great quote: however, the Church is one, so Christ's prayer is answered already, as it would be (after all He is God). It may not be "one" visibily (possibly never has been nor ever will be), but it is one nonetheless. Different customs, nationalities, communions etc.

I realise the TAC bishops believed that they were obeying the call to unity by approaching Rome this way, and I accept that. I have no problem with that. However, I don't believe at any point did anyone deny that the Church was not One already- but that this move would heal wounds and make the fellowship closer still, as well as be a formal witness to the world about Christian unity and charity. This is a good thing.

 

[Secundulus]

However, the reality is that it is likely to only preserve the Anglo-Catholic or Papalist interpretion of Anglicanism. Sad, really.

That is really the only version I have ever really known. My early experiences with Anglicanism ended in the early 1970's when my parents stopped attending due to changes in the Church. I did not resume with Anglicanism until 1997 in my current Anglo-Catholic Parish. The only options I have here are Anglo-Catholic or TEC and the three TEC churches in my town are all very liberal.

 

[ContraMundum]

That is really the only version I have ever really known. My early experiences with Anglicanism ended in the early 1970's when my parents stopped attending due to changes in the Church. I did not resume with Anglicanism until 1997 in my current Anglo-Catholic Parish. The only options I have here are Anglo-Catholic or TEC and the three TEC churches in my town are all very liberal.

I understand your perspective and certainly sympathise with it.

However, a lot of us in the TAC have experienced the Low Church or evangelical Anglicanism as well, and have seen how vital it is to the life of the church. With that portion of the Church being discarded, we lose so much, and I would argue we lose our balance too. We lose centuries of great teaching, the very essence of the via media comes under threat and so much more. We erase the memory of our best missionaries, our best preachers and our commitment to save the lost. Without that balance of the Low Church we end up obscuring the Gospel in a haze of religion and outward observances. Our greatest beauty is that we have a Low Church to preach the good news in purity and truth and a High Church to keep things in check by preserving our Apostolic roots. We need both. We must utterly reject liberal theology and its assault on the truth, but we must not lose all the glory we have been given either.

 

[Sesquialtera]

Do you think that it could come down to patriarchy amongst some individuals? Maintenance of the Catholic doctrines is obviously important, and only a desire to keep everything "within the nation" and without outside help from Rome could, I think, be what prevents certain Anglo-Catholics from defecting. I believe that for some, the church being that of the country, such as the Church of England, means a great deal, and historical upkeep of this church is essential.

 

[Secundulus]

Do you think that it could come down to patriarchy amongst some individuals? Maintenance of the Catholic doctrines is obviously important, and only a desire to keep everything "within the nation" and without outside help from Rome could, I think, be what prevents certain Anglo-Catholics from defecting. I believe that for some, the church being that of the country, such as the Church of England, means a great deal, and historical upkeep of this church is essential.

I think that the Anglican Church has reached the point of irreconcilable differences. I am not from the UK, but from what I read of the Anglo-Catholics over there, they will leave for Rome if Rome offers them something palatable.

I expect we will see the end-game in this sometime in the next six months. (Don't quote me on that timeline because I have been wrong already on several occasions)

 

[ContraMundum]

I think that the Anglican Church has reached the point of irreconcilable differences. I am not from the UK, but from what I read of the Anglo-Catholics over there, they will leave for Rome if Rome offers them something palatable.

I expect we will see the end-game in this sometime in the next six months. (Don't quote me on that timeline because I have been wrong already on several occasions)

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Secundulus]

Don't hold your breath.

I quit doing that about a year ago, after I heard the first five bogus rumors.

 

[ContraMundum]

I quit doing that about a year ago, after I heard the first five bogus rumors.

Well...I'm very connected to the info mill, and I'm not putting anything on hold for the news from across the Tiber.

 

[Albion]

Well...I'm very connected to the info mill, and I'm not putting anything on hold for the news from across the Tiber.

I've said it before, so probably I should let it go at that...but I'd be dumbfounded if Rome offered anything other than a group admission to the Anglican Use provision, if that. Whether that would appeal to most TAC parishes, I doubt. Beyond this, TAC is just too small for Rome to see as any vehicle for a breakthrough in Anglican relations, and especially so in view of the fact that she's recently made it clear that she is powerfully opposed to schisms coming from within the Anglican Communion.

 

[Zoness]

The only way there would be any reconnection with Rome is if we all unified doctrine, came under their dioceses, and called ourselves Roman Catholic.

 

[Secundulus]

The only way there would be any reconnection with Rome is if we all unified doctrine, came under their dioceses, and called ourselves Roman Catholic.

We already have unified doctrine.

On our acceptance of the catholic faith:
"We accept that the most complete and authentic expression and application of the catholic faith in this moment of time is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ..."

On our acceptance of the ministry of the bishop of Rome:
"We accept the ministry of the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter, which is a ministry of teaching and discerning the faith and a 'perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity' and understand this ministry is essential to the Church founded by Jesus Christ."
Source: House of Bishops, Anglican Church in America. June, 2008

The rest we will have to wait and see.

 

[Timothy]

We already have unified doctrine.

On our acceptance of the catholic faith:
"We accept that the most complete and authentic expression and application of the catholic faith in this moment of time is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ..."

On our acceptance of the ministry of the bishop of Rome:
"We accept the ministry of the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter, which is a ministry of teaching and discerning the faith and a 'perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity' and understand this ministry is essential to the Church founded by Jesus Christ."
Source: House of Bishops, Anglican Church in America. June, 2008

The rest we will have to wait and see.

So really, ACiA doesn't consider itself an Anglican church at all, it considers itself Anglican-Use Roman Catholic which has not been recognised yet? Wow.

 

[Secundulus]

So really, ACiA doesn't consider itself an Anglican church at all, it considers itself Anglican-Use Roman Catholic which has not been recognised yet? Wow.

I would say that that the ACA looks at itself as the authentic expression of Anglicanism. We do not use a Roman Missal. We use either the 1928 BCP or the Anglican Missal derived from the 1928 BCP.

However, I recognize that our belief in the authentic expression of Anglicanism is not shared outside the ACA.

 

[Albion]

However, I recognize that our belief in the authentic expression of Anglicanism is not shared outside the ACA.

FWIW, I agree, and since it's a "bottom line" kind of statement on your part, we ought to let the "discussion" go at that.

 

[Zoness]

This explains a lot...