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What do you think of Anglo-Papalism?

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Sphinx777

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Anglo-Papalism (or Anglican Papalism) is probably an American neologism. The term arose from the writings of the Reverend Spencer Jones, Vicar of Moreton-in-Marsh, author of England and the Holy See and the Reverend Lewis T. Wattson, an American who became an Anglican Franciscan and collaborated on The Prince of the Apostles in 1904. Their successors regard the Pope as the head of the Church. They generally accept in full the Councils of Trent and the Vatican Council of 1870, and also nearly all subsequent definitions of doctrine, including the bodily Assumption of Mary. Apostolicae Curae, the papal decree on the validity of the Anglican orders was rejected. They were sustained by a definite theory of the English Reformation.

Anglo-Catholics generally regarded the English Reformation as an act of the Church of England repudiating papal authority and, in the process, making an appeal to the early church which made possible a non-papal Catholicism. They usually regarded Archbishop Thomas Cranmer as more of a translator than as a theologian and saw the service in the first Book of Common Prayer as being the Mass in English. Anglican Papalists, on the other hand, regard the Church of England as two provinces of the Western Catholic Church forcibly severed by act of the crown from the rest. Gregory Dix, an eminent Anglican Papalist, monk of Nashdom Abbey, and scholar, in his defense of Anglican orders speaks of Cranmer and his friends using the power of the state to impose his views on the church by act of parliament. Anglican Papalists thus regard the Book of Common Prayer as having only the authority of use and believe it is legitimate to use the Roman Missal and Breviary for their services. Like many other Anglo-Catholics they make use of the rosary, benediction and other Roman Catholic devotions. Some have regarded Thomas Cranmer as a heretic and his first Prayer Book as an expression of Zwinglian doctrine. They actively work for the reunion of the Church of England with the Holy See, which they saw as the logical objective of the Oxford Movement and, in 1908, began the "Church Unity Octave of Prayer", the precursor of the much more general "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity".

Anglican Papalists set up a variety of organisations, such as the Catholic League and the Society for Promoting Catholic Unity (SPCU) which published [The Pilot], a journal which propagated their views and provided the leadership in many more general Anglo-Catholic organisations such as the Annunciation Group. In the 1950s the Fellowship of Christ the Eternal Priest, which was established for Anglican ordinands in the armed forces and published a journal called "The Rock", was strongly pro-Roman.

Some Anglican religious communities were Anglican Papalist, prominent among them the Benedictines of Nashdom Abbey, who used the Roman Missal and Monastic Breviary all in Latin.

The English Missal, a form of the Tridentine Mass interspersed with sections of the Book of Common Prayer, was commonly used by Anglican Papalists, and contained the Canon of the Mass in English and Latin. Its use however was not confined to them, as Anglo-Catholics who did not care for The Parson's Handbook, or the Pope, still found it a convenient volume for their services. Adrian Fortescue's Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described served as a useful guide as to how to use the missal. Often Anglo-Catholic parish priests would use the English version for the main Masses, while at early celebrations some Anglican Papalist curates would use only the Roman Missal in English or Latin. In like manner, many modern Anglican Papalists and Anglo-Catholics wishing to have a Mass in modern English use the Missa Normativa.

Historically, Anglo-Catholics who adopted Roman Rite practices (such as the Tridentine Mass and lace cottas) were popularly seen as Anglo-Papalist. Today, use of the Mass of Paul VI is similarly regarded as an Anglo-Papalist trend. Use of the Mass of Paul VI is more common among parishes associated with the group Forward in Faith. Other Anglo-Papalist groups include the Catholic League and the Sodality of the Precious Blood. Priests of the Sodality commit themselves to recitation of the modern Roman Liturgy of the Hours and to the Latin Rite discipline of celibate chastity. The now-defunct Society of Ss Peter and Paul published the Anglican Missal.


:angel:
 

Timothy

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I wonder why they're not Roman Catholics. Anglicans have historically and through to the present day reject the idea of Bishops of any See having authority outside of their own jurisdiction. This includes Rome.
 
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Albion

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This is one of those terms that has evolved somewhat. Anglo-Papalism AKA Anglo-Romanism is now distinguished both from historic Anglicanism and also from Anglo-Catholicism not by the use of Missals, etc. but by openly acclaiming the Pope as the head of the Church. As such, I see them as little different from Arminian Calvinists, "Fighting Quakers," or Christian Unitarians, i.e. those who reject their own churches' history and theology but without leaving them.
 
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ReadingForOrders

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Sounds a lot like early Old Catholicism to me.

Seem like an accurate observation at first but these are individuals who have stepped away from much of that which identifies them as Anglican. The early Old Catholics didn't step away from anything, instead they refused to accept novel innovations. (or at least what they viewed as novel)
 
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Albion

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I wonder what reason they feel for staining in the Anglican Communion, and not transferring to the Roman Catholic Church.

They should probably be the ones to answer this, but mine is this--

The Anglo-Papalists who are only individuals within Anglican churches at the moment want to make a point about Church history and what they think true Anglicanism should consist in. If they leave for the RCC, they lose the ability to fight that fight.

As for the main Anglican church BODY that is attempting to be received into the RCC (the Anglican Church in America and its "worldwide" communion, the Traditional Anglican Communion), it is a matter of recognition.

This church wants to be recognized by the Vatican as a unit, as an Anglican entity, and that is important to them because they could then feel that their church represented the coming-back together of the Anglican Church and the Roman Church after a separation of 450 years or so. After all, there is nothing special about Anglicans converting to Roman Catholicism as individuals.
 
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Zoness

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I'm not an Anglo-Catholic or Papalist so I reject this idea.

How would this work in reality? The Anglican Communion is so diverse and even includes Lutheran and Utrecht churches that are specifically not allowed to commune with Rome. Unless they speak of a ruler over the Anglican Communion, which I still do not approve of.
 
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Secundulus

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They should probably be the ones to answer this, but mine is this--

The Anglo-Papalists who are only individuals within Anglican churches at the moment want to make a point about Church history and what they think true Anglicanism should consist in. If they leave for the RCC, they lose the ability to fight that fight.

As for the main Anglican church BODY that is attempting to be received into the RCC (the Anglican Church in America and its "worldwide" communion, the Traditional Anglican Communion), it is a matter of recognition.

This church wants to be recognized by the Vatican as a unit, as an Anglican entity, and that is important to them because they could then feel that their church represented the coming-back together of the Anglican Church and the Roman Church after a separation of 450 years or so. After all, there is nothing special about Anglicans converting to Roman Catholicism as individuals.
No more need be said. That is a pretty accurate summary. I would however agree with you that what we are attempting to preserve is not the Anglicanism that developed following the death of Henry VIII.

Note: That last is my opinion only and would probably get me in trouble if I stated it publically in Church. However, I am pretty conversant in the history and I think it is an accurate statement.
 
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Secundulus

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I'm not an Anglo-Catholic or Papalist so I reject this idea.

How would this work in reality? The Anglican Communion is so diverse and even includes Lutheran and Utrecht churches that are specifically not allowed to commune with Rome. Unless they speak of a ruler over the Anglican Communion, which I still do not approve of.
Again, my opinion only, but no ruler = chaos & indecisive paralysis. Look at this past summer's Lambeth Conference.
 
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Secundulus

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Seem like an accurate observation at first but these are individuals who have stepped away from much of that which identifies them as Anglican.
That depends on when you date the beginning of the Anglican Church. Is it the historic Church of England that existed since as early as the first century? Or is it Cranmer's post reformation Church only?

The beginning of Christian history did not start in 1529!
 
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Zoness

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Again, my opinion only, but no ruler = chaos & indecisive paralysis. Look at this past summer's Lambeth Conference.

True although I don't know much about the Lambeth Confrence. I'm ok with rulers at diocese or regional level that maintain something sort of like autocephaly but not one person as ruler although it does help for unity when you have a single person to look at (Kind of like the Archbishop of Canterbury).
 
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Secundulus

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True although I don't know much about the Lambeth Confrence. I'm ok with rulers at diocese or regional level that maintain something sort of like autocephaly but not one person as ruler although it does help for unity when you have a single person to look at (Kind of like the Archbishop of Canterbury).
The problem is that he has no authority and that the Anglican Churches around the world ignore him at will. Everybody is doing their own thing. Thus your own Diocese breaks with TEC just this past week.
 
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Yardstick

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Interesting, and thank you for the response. The movement makes a good deal more sense to me now.

As an anglo-catholic I would appreciate having Rome recognize us, but I'm not super worried about it. However I would have no interest in being ruled over by the bishop of rome. Nor do I have any desire to follow some of Rome's doctrine.

Which would be why I left.
 
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Secundulus

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Interesting, and thank you for the response. The movement makes a good deal more sense to me now.

As an anglo-catholic I would appreciate having Rome recognize us, but I'm not super worried about it. However I would have no interest in being ruled over by the bishop of rome. Nor do I have any desire to follow some of Rome's doctrine.

Which would be why I left.
Well, FWIW, our Bishops said this to Rome.

On our acceptance of the catholic faith:
"We accept that the most complete and authentic expression and application of the catholic faith in this moment of time is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ...

"On our acceptance of the ministry of the bishop of Rome:
"We accept the ministry of the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter, which is a ministry of teaching and discerning the faith and a 'perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity' and understand this ministry is essential to the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

"And finally, the heart of the petition:
"Driven by these realizations, which we must now in good conscience bring to the attention of the Holy See, we seek a communal and ecclesial way of being Anglican Catholics in communion with the Holy See, at once treasuring the full expression of catholic faith and treasuring our tradition within which we have come to this moment. We seek the guidance of the Holy See as to the fulfillment of these our desires and those of the churches in which we have been called to serve."
 
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Zoness

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The problem is that he has no authority and that the Anglican Churches around the world ignore him at will. Everybody is doing their own thing. Thus your own Diocese breaks with TEC just this past week.

Again another good point.

I'm glad our diocese is free, we can make more decisions relevent for the area now. And for the record, I would not affirm that the complete faith is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church hence why I am no longer a member or Anglo-Catholic.
 
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Secundulus

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Again another good point.

I'm glad our diocese is free, we can make more decisions relevent for the area now. And for the record, I would not affirm that the complete faith is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church hence why I am no longer a member or Anglo-Catholic.
I wish you the best within Anglicanism, whatever version of it that might end up being.

I will leave with one scriptural quote.

""For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:19-21, NASB95)
 
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Zoness

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I wish you the best within Anglicanism, whatever version of it that might end up being.

I will leave with one scriptural quote.

""For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:19-21, NASB95)

Thanks, I will see how that turns out. If poorly I may just jump ship. I'd rather not, I do that a lot as it is.
 
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Albion

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I'm not an Anglo-Catholic or Papalist so I reject this idea.

How would this work in reality? The Anglican Communion is so diverse and even includes Lutheran and Utrecht churches that are specifically not allowed to commune with Rome. Unless they speak of a ruler over the Anglican Communion, which I still do not approve of.

There's nothing to contemplate. The Anglican churches of the world are not going to join the RCC, although there are a small number of Anglo-Papalists who think that acclaiming the Pope is the correct thing to do. And not all of them would join the Roman Catholic Church anyway.

Incidentally, the Lutheran and Old Catholic Churches of which you speak are NOT members of the Anglican Communion but have various agreements with the Anglican Communion.
 
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Zoness

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There's nothing to contemplate. The Anglican churches of the world are not going to join the RCC, although there are a small number of Anglo-Papalists who think that acclaiming the Pope is the correct thing to do. And not all of them would join the Roman Catholic Church anyway.

Incidentally, the Lutheran and Old Catholic Churches of which you speak are NOT members of the Anglican Communion but have various agreements with the Anglican Communion.

Oh I could of sworn they were actually members but I could of misread that.
 
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