What do You Think about this?

[Serapha]

Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

Salvation is past, present, and future. I was saved in the​

past by justification. I am being saved in the present by​

sanctification, and I will be saved in the future by​

glorification. ​

​

And what am I saved from? In the past, I was saved from​

the penalty of sin. In the present, I am saved from the ​

power of sin, and in the future, I will be saved from the ​

very presence of sin.​

Hey Bulldog,​

Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? ​

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How does a professing Christian sin? the measure of sin is the intent? whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin... (intent to sin... no). fall short and miss the mark.... yes.

~serapha~

 

[Flynmonkie]

Please explain what exactly you believe concerning election, regeration, repentance, justification, and salvation.

I do not feel I strictly fit in an election/free will category as that I feel both apply. I also do not “fit” in the Calvinism Vs. Arminianism debate as that I feel both apply but I lean again towards Arminianism. I lean towards Calvin but not agreeing with the complete 5 Tulips. Limited atonement also called "definite atonement" meaning that, Christ's death actually takes away the penalty of sins committed by those upon whom God has chosen to have mercy. It is "limited" then, to taking away the sins of the elect. I do not believe this “elect” as that I do not believe in Predestination. God said, “Whosoever shall believe in me, shall have everlasting Life!” Sort of throws that idea right out the window! And I try to stay out of all the ‘ism debates if I can. Just continually testing everything against Gods word.

Repentance we should do every day as perpetual sinners.

Salvation is a Gift from God. I believe in the 4 spiritual laws. http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/

I believe in OT Law covered by NT Grace. Such as another post that you explained.

I believe in the OSAS doctrine. But as you have said above, we cannot just choose to live a knowingly sinful lifestyle and be in fellowship with God. We would have to wonder if we really believed in him or not.

I believe that faith and good works are shown in our lives as belief of Gods plan of salvation that he sent his son to cleanse us of our sins. The ultimate sacrifice offered as proof to us of his love. Neither belief, faith or good works one alone will “get” us into heaven. All apply. Because I believe in Gods plan of salvation I have faith in him at his word, I am to continue to try to be a better person and grow in fellowship becoming a better person.

Regeneration and Justification I also play middle of the road there. I believe that it is an ongoing process, yet at the same time, it can be immediate change in a sinner. Our sinful natures will never change and it will be impossible to be as Jesus was. But we are to continue to try. I/O there will always be room for improvement.

Explain enough?

 

[Lotar]

I do not feel I strictly fit in an election/free will category as that I feel both apply. I also do not “fit” in the Calvinism Vs. Arminianism debate as that I feel both apply but I lean again towards Arminianism. I lean towards Calvin but not agreeing with the complete 5 Tulips. Limited atonement also called "definite atonement" meaning that, Christ's death actually takes away the penalty of sins committed by those upon whom God has chosen to have mercy. It is "limited" then, to taking away the sins of the elect. I do not believe this “elect” as that I do not believe in Predestination. God said, “Whosoever shall believe in me, shall have everlasting Life!” Sort of throws that idea right out the window! And I try to stay out of all the ‘ism debates if I can. Just continually testing everything against Gods word.

I am Lutheran, so I am neither Reformed nor Arminian.

Predestination and election are biblical truths.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

1 Corinthians 2:7
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;


Those are just a couple examples there, election and predestination are spoken of throughout the NT.

Repentance we should do every day as perpetual sinners.

We are to repent, yes, but what is repentance, and more imporantly a repentant heart?

Salvation is a Gift from God. I believe in the 4 spiritual laws. http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/


I believe in OT Law covered by NT Grace. Such as another post that you explained.

I believe in the OSAS doctrine. But as you have said above, we cannot just choose to live a knowingly sinful lifestyle and be in fellowship with God. We would have to wonder if we really believed in him or not.

But what do you say to scripture that clearly teaches that one can lose their faith, as in my previous posts.

I believe that faith and good works are shown in our lives as belief of Gods plan of salvation that he sent his son to cleanse us of our sins. The ultimate sacrifice offered as proof to us of his love. Neither belief, faith or good works one alone will “get” us into heaven. All apply. Because I believe in Gods plan of salvation I have faith in him at his word, I am to continue to try to be a better person and grow in fellowship becoming a better person.

So you do not believe in salvation by faith alone?

Regeneration and Justification I also play middle of the road there. I believe that it is an ongoing process, yet at the same time, it can be immediate change in a sinner. Our sinful natures will never change and it will be impossible to be as Jesus was. But we are to continue to try. I/O there will always be room for improvement.

Explain enough?

Regeneration is when God imparts His regenerative grace to us, thereby regenerating our soul. Turning our will from evil to good, though we still struggle against our carnal desires, which is what St Paul often spoke of.

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Justification is us being justified before God, found free of sin. Any sin deserves deserves eternal damnation, so to enter heaven we must be justified before Him.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Sanctification is the process of us becoming more and more Christ-like.

Justification a Pronouncemet: Sanctification a Process
Christ did not die or remove sin that we might remain wicked.... Christ purchased two things for us: first, gratiam, grace; secondly, donum, the gift (of sactification). First, then, I attain the forgiveness of sin without any contribution or good works of my own. God justifies me, considers me holy and His child because I believe in Christ, not because I do this or that.... Secondly, when I believe, the Son of God has thereby already laid the first stone - or the cornerstone - and adds to this faith the gifts, dona. He attacks sin in our body and soul.... To be sure, these sins are remitted and forgiven in accordance with grace and pardon, that is, God will not impute them to believers. But from the standpoint on personal purification (Ausfegen) all are not gone.... What, then, are we to do with the sins that remain after we have come to faith? The Holy Spirit says through St. Paul (1 Cor. 5:7): We want to sweep them out. But this sweeping continues till the grave. The forgiveness of sins takes place in a moment, when we recieve and accept the Word of God by faith.

-Luther speaks of this in a sermon of March 27, 1540, on Matt. 27:62-66

 

[Flynmonkie]

I am Lutheran, so I am neither Reformed nor Arminian. <~~ I am not Luthern! As I said earlier, I do not get involved with the 'ism debates!

We are to repent, yes, but what is repentance, and more imporantly a repentant heart? <~~~~~~~not sure where you missed my meaning on this, we are to continually ask for forgiveness and try to be better.

But what do you say to scripture that clearly teaches that one can lose their faith, as in my previous posts. <~~~Loosing Faith to you means not believing to me...two different things. Might just be that I am too tired for this looming debate and I am not following you here?

So you do not believe in salvation by faith alone? yes of course I do?!?! I am not sure what you mean? or where you got this from? I do not believe that I can loose my salvation because my faith wavers, as described above, but yet I do belive it can be lost if you completely deny him Father Son and Holy Spirit - and that is the only way to loose salvation. I believe belief - faith - good works all go hand in hand. Just having faith and not showing change in your life....will not get you there. Just beliving without change will not get you there. And just by doing good things will not get you there. Not one of these things alone. ( am talking about after Salvation is accepted)

Justificaion by faith and Grace

Regeneration definition stays the same for me. Regeneration is what happens as a change in our hearts upon the acceptance of Grace - salvation. But it does not always cause change to appear right away in every area needing improvement.

 

[Lotar]

I am Lutheran, so I am neither Reformed nor Arminian. <~~ I am not Luthern! As I said earlier, I do not get involved with the 'ism debates!

I'm not debating any 'ism, I am presenting the theology behind faith alone. No offense, but your beliefs are very muddled. I don't have time to go into all of this tonight, and I probably won't tomorrow either. Hopefully someone like Reformationist will take this up.

 

[Under_His_Shadow]

He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

Let's allow God's Word to speak on this subject:

"We have been made holy/sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" [eternity]. - Heb. 10:10

"But when this Priest [Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God...because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who [haven't "arrived" at perfection in their daily conduct yet, but] are being made holy''. - Heb. 10:12,14

Our salvation does not teeter on our ability to do anything, including squeezing in a quick confession for a sin committed 5 seconds before we die, but on the solid rock of Jesus Christ's sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf! Praise His Name!!
U.H.S.
†

 

[Reformationist]

Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

It may be helpful to consider the verse your dad was citing. Any idea what verse it was?

One thing though, our sins are NOT forgiven because we ask for them to be forgiven. Our sins are forgiven because of the vicarious atonement of our Lord and the gracious imputation of the merits of His sacrifice to us by the work of the Holy Spirit.

The only way that our sins would remain uncovered in the eyes of God would be if He, for some reason, was unsatisfied with the propitiation of Christ. So, in all reality, there is no way for our sins to be unaccounted for because God is eternally appeased through the obedience of our Savior.

God bless,
Don

 

[Bulldog]

It may be helpful to consider the verse your dad was citing. Any idea what verse it was

I think it misht be Rev 21:27.

 

[Knight]

Rev. 21:27 (NASB)
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This is true. God, in His holiness cannot be in the presence of sin. This is part of His nature. This is why Christ's substitutionary death on the cross had two purposes. 1) Atonement for our sin, past, present, and future. 2) To transfer Jesus' righteousness to us. Therefore we are, by virtue of Christ's perfect sinless life, granted the status of being righteous in God's sight.

1 Cor. 15:50-54 (NASB)
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

 

[Serapha]

I think it misht be Rev 21:27.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Hi there!



That is a complicated passage, for the entirity of the Bible must be covered to get to that point.


That passage is written after both the first and second resurrections, therefore, that passage is written after the judgment of all men for salvation and for their work. It pertains to the "New Heaven and Earth" for the old heaven and earth are passed away.

God is not a yo-yo God,

saved today,
lost tomorrow,
saved today,
lost tomorrow....


If that were so, I could put my faith in a daisy...

He loves me today
He loves me not
He loves me today
He loves me not....


We aren't playing "Russian roulette" about being saved. Either one is saved, or one is not saved. There's no "oops!" to it.... and no "chance" involved. Being saved is an act of faith, not dependent upon a "works" program, but dependent only upon the promises of God and the continued grace of God.

If you believe God had the grace to save you, why don't you believe that God has enough grace to keep you saved?


~serapha~

 

[kimber1]

not meaning to debate so delete if necessary but for those who feel assured of their salvation... how do you reconcile this scripture passages then?

1 Corinthians 10:12 therefore, whoever thinks he is standing should take care not to fall
Galatians 5:4 you are seperated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Matthew 7:21 not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Hebrews 10: 26-27 if we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries

 

[Blindfaith]

I think that the OSAS argument is a little different than what your dad may be saying? From what I understand he's implying that any sin that isn't washed clean forfits an individual from entering heaven.

There's no way that I can "catch" or remember every little sin that I've committed in a day. I do my best to ask for forgiveness for the individual sins, but I also ask the Lord to wash away my sins (ones that I can't remember) and to change my heart so I don't commit them again (this is a quick explanation).

As far as sin not entering heaven, I absolutely and firmly believe that. If a shred of sin were allowed into heaven, then Jesus wouldn't have had to go through what He did so we could be made perfect when we stand before God.

Don't let legalism and semantics get you wrapped up, my dear. It's easy to get burdened under the law......but that is why God's grace is so amazing.

 

[Flynmonkie]

not meaning to debate so delete if necessary but for those who feel assured of their salvation... how do you reconcile this scripture passages then?

1 Corinthians 10:12 therefore, whoever thinks he is standing should take care not to fall
Galatians 5:4 you are seperated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Matthew 7:21 not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Hebrews 10: 26-27 if we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries

1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

The whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 10 is addressing a reminder of the OT laws and how his chosen had went astray. He is warning us again:The harms sustained by others should be cautious to us. He that thinks he stands should not be confident and secure, but upon his guard. Others have fallen, and so may we. And then we are most likely to fall when we are most confident of our own strength, and thereupon most apt to be secure, and off our guard. Distrust of himself, putting him at once upon vigilance and dependence on God, is the Christian’s best security against all sin. Note, He who thinks he stands is not likely to keep his footing, if he fears no fall, nor guards against it. God has not promised to keep us from falling, if we do not look to ourselves: his protection supposes our own care and caution.

&#65279;Galatians 5:4 KJV “&#65279;&#65279;Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
In the former part of this chapter the apostle cautions the Galatians to take heed of the judaizing teachers, who endeavored to bring them back under the bondage of the law. He had been arguing against them before, and had largely shown how contrary the principles and spirit of those teachers were to the spirit of the gospel; and now this is as it were the general inference or application of all that discourse. Since it appeared by what had been said that we can be justified only by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the righteousness of the law, and that the law of Moses was no longer in force, nor Christians under any obligation to submit to it, therefore he would have them to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and not to be again entangled with the yoke of bondage.

Matthew 7:21 KJV This verse is Jesus speaking of how you cannot just profess to know him by doing good things you have to be obedient. Hence the term “Earnestly Seeking”. This verse is for those whom are the hypocrites that profess to know Jesus, but in turn do not by actions and words. Compliments will not get you into heaven. Says nothing about loosing real salvation&#65279;

Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV “26 &#65279;For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,&#65279; 27 &#65279;But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,—despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,—and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num. 15:30, 31. They were to be cut off.

Theologians and Scholars have debated these issues for many centuries. This is why I choose not to get involved with these discussions.But you cannot take bits and pieces out of the bible to prove a point. That is what is called proof texting. Make sure you have a firm grasp around what it is you are reading. You must always read around these verses to find original intent. So I am not sure of your meaning of these verses, or how you wish them to apply? If there are more questions someone should open another thread rather than to continue to hijack this one eek!

 

[Reformationist]

I think it misht be Rev 21:27.

Bulldog, atonement literally means covering. So, we must consider this when addressing the way God views our sin. You see, we who are in Christ are righteous in account though we are not yet righteous in deed.

This is the difference between the imputation of Christ's righteousness and being inculcated by the rightoeusness of Christ. Our guilt for sin was imputed to Christ. We were imputed with the righteousness of Christ. As we are sanctified we are steadily being conformed to the image of Christ's holiness.

So, if we are in Christ then God counts us righteous and without stain on His account, not our own. His blood has covered our sins from the sight of God.

God bless

 

[Bastoune]

Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV “26 &#65279;For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,&#65279; 27 &#65279;But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,—despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,—and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num. 15:30, 31. They were to be cut off.

Theologians and Scholars have debated these issues for many centuries. This is why I choose not to get involved with these discussions.But you cannot take bits and pieces out of the bible to prove a point. That is what is called proof texting. Make sure you have a firm grasp around what it is you are reading. You must always read around these verses to find original intent. So I am not sure of your meaning of these verses, or how you wish them to apply? If there are more questions someone should open another thread rather than to continue to hijack this one eek!

But if you are saved or of the elect, there's no need to even bring this up. OSAS... Waste of paper and time.

 

[Svt4Him]

Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

Sorry if this has been answered, but what verse did he specifically use again?

 

[Breetai]

Bulldog, atonement literally means covering. So, we must consider this when addressing the way God views our sin. You see, we who are in Christ are righteous in account though we are not yet righteous in deed.

This is the difference between the imputation of Christ's righteousness and being inculcated by the rightoeusness of Christ. Our guilt for sin was imputed to Christ. We were imputed with the righteousness of Christ. As we are sanctified we are steadily being conformed to the image of Christ's holiness.

So, if we are in Christ then God counts us righteous and without stain on His account, not our own. His blood has covered our sins from the sight of God.

Thumbs up.

There are some sins, such as sins against the Holy Spirit that are not forgiven. I think that this means rejecting the death of Christ. If a Christian were to do this, then they would no longer be Christian. I think that the phrase 'once saved, always saved' should be rephrased as 'once saved, always saved unless you reject the sacrifice of Jesus'.

 

[Bulldog]

Sorry if this has been answered, but what verse did he specifically use again?

Rev. 21:27