Pre-Mil Only What do you think about the video from a Pastor on YouTube?

[Jeffwhosoever]

I came across this recently and the Pastor who created the video makes a very simplistic case for why a pre-tribulational rapture seems unlikely based on a relatively brief amount of Scripture. I found the simplicity of his explanation quite useful so I am curious what you all think about his interpretation of the referenced Scripture in the video.

 

[Jamdoc]

I came across this recently and the Pastor who created the video makes a very simplistic case for why a pre-tribulational rapture seems unlikely based on a relatively brief amount of Scripture. I found the simplicity of his explanation quite useful so I am curious what you all think about his interpretation of the referenced Scripture in the video.

not a particular spot in scripture I've seen to specifically defend a post trib (whether posttrib-prewrath, or your more traditional post-trib, or the Joel Richardson "hybrid" between the two) rapture but a solid one.

I (and Joel Richardson for that matter why he doesn't just stay full post trib but includes pre-wrath elements) have always liked the simplicity of one of the stronger pre-wrath arguments and that is in Matthew 24 Jesus described the signs immediately after the Great Tribulation, the darkening of the sun and moon, when do those signs appear in Revelation, the 6th seal, which means at the 6th seal, the Great Tribulation is over.

Now the finer splitting hairs as to whether the trumpets and bowls are sequential, or overlapping can make the whole thing become not so simple afterall, and many post trib will see the 6th seal as yeah, that's after the tribulation and is Jesus coming back just like Matthew 24 said, but they'll overlap it with the 7th trumpet, Jesus on the clouds in Revelation 14, and 7th bowl, and Revelation 19 as those are all the same event, where pre wrath will have it be sequential or maybe overlap the trumpets and bowls but not overlap those with the seals.

But the initial point out of.. the sign Jesus gave happening immediately after the tribulation is here at the 6th seal.. that part is easy and simple. Revelation 7 having a massive amount of people before the throne of God is the bonus confirmation though some people who want to be post trib and see seals, trumpets, and bowls as being sequential will claim "this is a flash forward" and again it becomes splitting hairs.

But the initial assessment of "when does the sun and moon darken?"
That part is simple.

So is this.
In both cases, the main point is.. yes, we face Antichrist and martyrdom, so prepare for that.
Now I don't mean prepare like stockpile food, and all that, and many post trib and pre wrath do get into physical prepping.
I don't
first off I financially can't.. secondly, I just don't think you're going to be able to hole up in your home living off stored food when we're talking about neighbors and family and friends..... and people from your Church that go apostate... giving you over to tribulation, your permanent residence where people know you live? Useless if you want to survive in a physical fashion. I think anyone who will survive the GT will have to do so on the run, and will have to rely on God to provide.

Me, my physical condition doesn't allow flight either. I am perfectly situated for my own family of non believers to turn me over if it happens in our lifetime, and I believe.. that's part of God's Providence.. to put me in this situation where I am a near perfect candidate to go into captivity.
Which means I have one means of preparation I can do, and maybe it is something that we all need to consider and prepare for.
and that is, preparing to die for His name, the same name we will be hated for.
all you can do is strengthen yourself in the Lord.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Any other comments or input?

 

[Jamdoc]

Not really, it's a solid argument and I really can't see any way to scripturally argue out of it in favor of pre trib.

 

[Douggg]

Any other comments or input?

The speaker of the video mis-states what is in 1Thessalonians4:16, The speaker says "first resurrection", and then goes on to say that his misstated "first resurrection' is the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 of the martyred great tribulation saints.

It does not say "the first resurrection" in 1Thessalonians4:16. It is saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens first, i.e. before the living in Christ are caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet Jesus in the air. i.e as opposed to some place on the ground.

1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Also the speaker of the video choose for himself, his You Tube channel as Antichrist 45/Brother Paul's channel. That doesn't make sense to me to identify his channel in part as Antichrist 45.

 

[Jamdoc]

there's one first resurrection and that is mentioned in Revelation 20, it's the same resurrection as precedes the rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4 just has the dead in Christ rise first.
This also fits 1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So what we have consistently in 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, Revelation 20, and I'd argue Isaiah 26 and John 5:24-27, is that the saints are resurrected first when Jesus comes from heaven (Isaiah 26 says "the Lord cometh out of His place"), and then also in 1 Corinthians 15:24-26, and John 5:28-29, and Revelation 20:11-15 is a second resurrection and judgement.

There isn't more end time resurrections than that, just 2. There's the one of the saints that comes just prior to the rapture, and there's the one just before final judgement.
That would make the two witnesses part of that first resurrection. The first part of Revelation 11 isn't Chronologically between the 6th and 7th trumpets. it more fits with the explanation of things that were going on in the background in Revelation 10. Never forget that chapters and verses are not Inspired.

 

[Douggg]

there's one first resurrection and that is mentioned in Revelation 20,

There will be two resurrections of the dead relative to the millennium.

The first resurrection is for the the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The second resurrection is for the rest of the dead after the millennium is over in Revelation 20:13-14..

 

[tranquil]

I came across this recently and the Pastor who created the video makes a very simplistic case for why a pre-tribulational rapture seems unlikely based on a relatively brief amount of Scripture. I found the simplicity of his explanation quite useful so I am curious what you all think about his interpretation of the referenced Scripture in the video.

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' - there is only being 'gathered' - gathered to Jesus who is healing the civil war between 2 factions Israel & Judah

The great tribulation starts at the Trumpets (which starts on a Feast of Tabernacles). The winter, Sabbath Great tribulation is at the 6th Trumpet 5 months later on Adar 15 (Adar 15 in 2025 is on a sabbath and won't be for another 10 years) (this starts the 1290 days then 45 days later is the 1335th day).

The 'dead in Christ arise' at the start of the Trumpets (the great multitude in heaven)

Rev 9:13-21 lasts for 1 month, then the 7 year covenant is made on Passover 2025 (the mighty angel of Rev 10 'swears an oath')

The 2 witnesses are 'raised up' at the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet (symbolically just as in Ezek 37 unless you think it is really talking about zombies) (and again in Ezek 37, the 2 sticks are being joined to 1 stick: Jesus - that is 'being gathered')

 

[Timtofly]

there's one first resurrection and that is mentioned in Revelation 20, it's the same resurrection as precedes the rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4 just has the dead in Christ rise first.
This also fits 1 Corinthians 15

Paul in Thessalonians is not talking about a resurrection of beheaded people. Those beheaded people are not raptured, but live on the earth. They are never caught up any where.

Those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 are not even the first chronological resurrection mentioned in Revelation. The 2 witnesses were already resurrected first, and raptured. Some claim 42 months before the beheaded were resurrected. It would seem at least a day prior. The 2 witnesses were resurrected prior to Armageddon. The beheaded were resurrected after Armageddon. So John is not talking about a chronological resurrection assuming a second one later. The beheaded are the second resurrection mentioned by John.

"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

The term first resurrection is referring to a physical resurrection as opposed to a spiritual resurrection. All resurrections starting with Lazarus, then the OT redeemed at the Cross, and every individual since the Cross have experienced the first resurrection, and have been physically enjoying Paradise since the day of the Cross. Millions have come out of great tribulation over the last 1994 years and are physically serving God day and night in that heavenly temple.

 

[Jamdoc]

Paul in Thessalonians is not talking about a resurrection of beheaded people. Those beheaded people are not raptured, but live on the earth. They are never caught up any where.

Those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 are not even the first chronological resurrection mentioned in Revelation. The 2 witnesses were already resurrected first, and raptured. Some claim 42 months before the beheaded were resurrected. It would seem at least a day prior. The 2 witnesses were resurrected prior to Armageddon. The beheaded were resurrected after Armageddon. So John is not talking about a chronological resurrection assuming a second one later. The beheaded are the second resurrection mentioned by John.

"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

The term first resurrection is referring to a physical resurrection as opposed to a spiritual resurrection. All resurrections starting with Lazarus, then the OT redeemed at the Cross, and every individual since the Cross have experienced the first resurrection, and have been physically enjoying Paradise since the day of the Cross. Millions have come out of great tribulation over the last 1994 years and are physically serving God day and night in that heavenly temple.

The two witnesses are martyred.
They are resurrected and raptured.
It is part of the first resurrection. Revelation 11's first half is not Chronological.

 

[Douggg]

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' - there is only being 'gathered' - gathered to Jesus who is healing the civil war between 2 factions Israel & Judah

The great tribulation starts at the Trumpets (which starts on a Feast of Tabernacles). The winter, Sabbath Great tribulation is at the 6th Trumpet 5 months later on Adar 15 (Adar 15 in 2025 is on a sabbath and won't be for another 10 years) (this starts the 1290 days then 45 days later is the 1335th day).

The 'dead in Christ arise' at the start of the Trumpets (the great multitude in heaven)

Rev 9:13-21 lasts for 1 month, then the 7 year covenant is made on Passover 2025 (the mighty angel of Rev 10 'swears an oath')

The 2 witnesses are 'raised up' at the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet (symbolically just as in Ezek 37 unless you think it is really talking about zombies) (and again in Ezek 37, the 2 sticks are being joined to 1 stick: Jesus - that is 'being gathered')

tranquil, in your chart you have the fifth trumpet plague taking place, in the fall of 2024. Before the 5th trumpet, there are 4 other trumpet plagues. None of those have happen.

There are 15 end time timeframes in the bible, as listed on my diagram below. I suggest you scratch your current timeline and begin again.

The two critical parameters are the beginning of the 7 years and Jesus's return to end the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' - there is only being 'gathered' - gathered to Jesus who is healing the civil war between 2 factions Israel & Judah

The great tribulation starts at the Trumpets (which starts on a Feast of Tabernacles). The winter, Sabbath Great tribulation is at the 6th Trumpet 5 months later on Adar 15 (Adar 15 in 2025 is on a sabbath and won't be for another 10 years) (this starts the 1290 days then 45 days later is the 1335th day).

The 'dead in Christ arise' at the start of the Trumpets (the great multitude in heaven)

Rev 9:13-21 lasts for 1 month, then the 7 year covenant is made on Passover 2025 (the mighty angel of Rev 10 'swears an oath')

The 2 witnesses are 'raised up' at the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet (symbolically just as in Ezek 37 unless you think it is really talking about zombies) (and again in Ezek 37, the 2 sticks are being joined to 1 stick: Jesus - that is 'being gathered')

tranquil, what program did you use to make your timeline chart ?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' - there is only being 'gathered' - gathered to Jesus who is healing the civil war between 2 factions Israel & Judah

The great tribulation starts at the Trumpets (which starts on a Feast of Tabernacles). The winter, Sabbath Great tribulation is at the 6th Trumpet 5 months later on Adar 15 (Adar 15 in 2025 is on a sabbath and won't be for another 10 years) (this starts the 1290 days then 45 days later is the 1335th day).

The 'dead in Christ arise' at the start of the Trumpets (the great multitude in heaven)

Rev 9:13-21 lasts for 1 month, then the 7 year covenant is made on Passover 2025 (the mighty angel of Rev 10 'swears an oath')

The 2 witnesses are 'raised up' at the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet (symbolically just as in Ezek 37 unless you think it is really talking about zombies) (and again in Ezek 37, the 2 sticks are being joined to 1 stick: Jesus - that is 'being gathered')

Where are the 7 seal judgements? When you say great tribulation, are you referring to the second half of the 7 years after the antichrist stands in the holy tabernacle in Jerusalem and (falsely) pronouces to the world that he is God? Your chart is interesting but a bit busy. Do you have a source for the chart or is it one you drew yourself? Douggg in this thread is a master of tribulation and millennium charts.

It is my view that the Lord is trying at each of 21 steps (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls of wrath) to get the attention of humans to give them chances to repent and accept our Lord Jesus as their Savior and refuse the mark of the beast as a test though they may starve to death or die horribly as martyrs. Jesus does not want to send anyone to hell and is giving everyone chance after chance. If you study all three sets of 7 judgments per set (7 x 3 = 21), you can see that with each step the heat is being turned up on the world, and of course, the Lord has a reason for doing this and already knows who will be saved because we know the book of life was written before the foundation of the world. He could just have one step, not 21, but He is doing everything possible to drive people to repent and believe, knowing that most of the world by now knows the Gospel and those who know it and see tribulation unfold before their eyes, some will eventually come to their senses and convert. I've heard that no one is saved in the 7 bowls of wrath which is why there is a pre-wrath rapture position in the book I am reading now (3 views of Tribulation). Doug and I decided a long time ago that we were "any time" rapture believers. I chose that view because Scripture just isn't definitive enough to be firm on whether it is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture. I am skeptical of a post-tribulation rapture as a premillinialist which is why I created this thread only for premillenials. It doesn't make sense to me to have a post-tribulation view because in effect it would be an immediate U turn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Where are the 7 seal judgements? When you say great tribulation, are you referring to the second half of the 7 years after the antichrist stands in the holy tabernacle in Jerusalem and (falsely) pronouces to the world that he is God? Your chart is interesting but a bit busy. Do you have a source for the chart or is it one you drew yourself? Douggg in this thread is a master of tribulation and millennium charts.

It is my view that the Lord is trying at each of 21 steps (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls of wrath) to get the attention of humans to give them chances to repent and accept our Lord Jesus as their Savior and refuse the mark of the beast as a test though they may starve to death or die horribly as martyrs. Jesus does not want to send anyone to hell and is giving everyone chance after chance. If you study all three sets of 7 judgments per set (7 x 3 = 21), you can see that with each step the heat is being turned up on the world, and of course, the Lord has a reason for doing this and already knows who will be saved because we know the book of life was written before the foundation of the world. He could just have one step, not 21, but He is doing everything possible to drive people to repent and believe, knowing that most of the world by now knows the Gospel and those who know it and see tribulation unfold before their eyes, some will eventually come to their senses and convert. I've heard that no one is saved in the 7 bowls of wrath which is why there is a pre-wrath rapture position in the book I am reading now (3 views of Tribulation). Doug and I decided a long time ago that we were "any time" rapture believers. I chose that view because Scripture just isn't definitive enough to be firm on whether it is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture. I am skeptical of a post-tribulation rapture as a premillinialist which is why I created this thread only for premillenials. It doesn't make sense to me to have a post-tribulation view because in effect it would be an immediate U turn.

During the 7 seals yes.
But once the trumpets start going it doesn't look like there's repenting going on

Revelation 9

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

I believe outside of the remnant of the Jews, there is no repentance among the gentiles once Jesus returns, once the great day of His wrath has come, and who can stand?
The verse I quoted above.. does seem like if they didn't die, they still weren't repenting.

It reminds me of something else in scripture

Amos 8

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

So sixth seal signs, and then well, the great day of their wrath.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

After the 6th seal, there's a famine of hearing the words of the Lord. I theorize because of the rapture, Jesus had come back, the day of the Lord had begun, and so those who would preach the word of God? resurrected or raptured but in other words, gone...

and since they are unable to find the word of the Lord.. they do this

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

The sin of Samaria refers to the idol worship that took place in Samaria after the dividing of the North and South Kingdom, begun by Jeroboam. Dan was known as an apostate tribe (they're not listed in the 144,000, and neither is Ephraim, which is the tribe of Jeroboam).
So in other words, instead of repenting, they double down on false worship, just like in Revelation 9, they do not repent.
Now another reason why I think Gentile repentance is DONE during this time, is because of Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If Israel won't have their blindness healed and get saved en masse until the fulness, the totality of the Gentiles that will be saved are saved.. then once blindness is healed from Israel, you should expect that there are no more gentiles that will be saved, no?
That's one of the reasons I reject "tribulation saints", because if blindness is being healed from the Jews.. then the Fulness of the Gentiles had already come in.

 

[tranquil]

tranquil, in your chart you have the fifth trumpet plague taking place, in the fall of 2024. Before the 5th trumpet, there are 4 other trumpet plagues. None of those have happen.

There are 15 end time timeframes in the bible, as listed on my diagram below. I suggest you scratch your current timeline and begin again.

The two critical parameters are the beginning of the 7 years and Jesus's return to end the 7 years.



View attachment 350109

Firstly, literally none of these verses on your graph say anything whatsoever about Jesus' return. The only one that remotely comes close is Dan 9:27, but even that one does not say it explicitly. Dan 9:24-26 says messiah explicitly - but those are in relation to 70 weeks (which are literal weeks imo).

I suggest you scratch this graph.

2ndly, Trumpets 1-4 have no time elements - they are judgments upon the 'one that is' Babylon (from Revelation 17:10) (#6 Babylon), the 7th Babylon has not taken power or has just arrived. This happens at Feast of Tabernacles.

Read Jeremiah 50-51

1This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I will stir up against Babylon and against the people of Leb-kamai the spirit of a destroyer.​

2I will send strangers to Babylon to winnow her and empty her land; for they will come against her from every side in her day of disaster.​

3Do not let the archer bend his bow or put on his armor. Do not spare her young men; devote all her army to destruction!​

​

14The LORD of Hosts has sworn by Himself: “Surely I will fill you up with men as with locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you.”​

​

25“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who devastate the whole earth, declares the LORD. I will stretch out My hand against you; I will roll you over the cliffs and turn you into a burnt mountain.​

The 2nd Trumpet's burning mountain is the #6, current Babylon, 'the one that is'. When it gets attacked by the Medes, then it is filled up with men as with locusts.

The first 4 Trumpets are an event that creates the situation of Babylon being filled with 'locusts' / a human army. Really not difficult.

 

[Douggg]

Firstly, literally none of these verses on your graph say anything whatsoever about Jesus' return. The only one that remotely comes close is Dan 9:27, but even that one does not say it explicitly. Dan 9:24-26 says messiah explicitly - but those are in relation to 70 weeks (which are literal weeks imo).

I suggest you scratch this graph.

2ndly, Trumpets 1-4 have no time elements - they are judgments upon the 'one that is' Babylon (from Revelation 17:10) (#6 Babylon), the 7th Babylon has not taken power or has just arrived. This happens at Feast of Tabernacles.

Read Jeremiah 50-51

1This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I will stir up against Babylon and against the people of Leb-kamai the spirit of a destroyer.​

2I will send strangers to Babylon to winnow her and empty her land; for they will come against her from every side in her day of disaster.​

3Do not let the archer bend his bow or put on his armor. Do not spare her young men; devote all her army to destruction!​

​

14The LORD of Hosts has sworn by Himself: “Surely I will fill you up with men as with locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you.”​

​

25“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who devastate the whole earth, declares the LORD. I will stretch out My hand against you; I will roll you over the cliffs and turn you into a burnt mountain.​

The 2nd Trumpet's burning mountain is the #6, current Babylon, 'the one that is'. When it gets attacked by the Medes, then it is filled up with men as with locusts.

The first 4 Trumpets are an event that creates the situation of Babylon being filled with 'locusts' / a human army. Really not difficult.

The locust creatures will come out of the bottomless pit. They are therefore not men.

 

[tranquil]

Where are the 7 seal judgements? When you say great tribulation, are you referring to the second half of the 7 years after the antichrist stands in the holy tabernacle in Jerusalem and (falsely) pronouces to the world that he is God? Your chart is interesting but a bit busy. Do you have a source for the chart or is it one you drew yourself? Douggg in this thread is a master of tribulation and millennium charts.

It is my view that the Lord is trying at each of 21 steps (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls of wrath) to get the attention of humans to give them chances to repent and accept our Lord Jesus as their Savior and refuse the mark of the beast as a test though they may starve to death or die horribly as martyrs. Jesus does not want to send anyone to hell and is giving everyone chance after chance. If you study all three sets of 7 judgments per set (7 x 3 = 21), you can see that with each step the heat is being turned up on the world, and of course, the Lord has a reason for doing this and already knows who will be saved because we know the book of life was written before the foundation of the world. He could just have one step, not 21, but He is doing everything possible to drive people to repent and believe, knowing that most of the world by now knows the Gospel and those who know it and see tribulation unfold before their eyes, some will eventually come to their senses and convert. I've heard that no one is saved in the 7 bowls of wrath which is why there is a pre-wrath rapture position in the book I am reading now (3 views of Tribulation). Doug and I decided a long time ago that we were "any time" rapture believers. I chose that view because Scripture just isn't definitive enough to be firm on whether it is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture. I am skeptical of a post-tribulation rapture as a premillinialist which is why I created this thread only for premillenials. It doesn't make sense to me to have a post-tribulation view because in effect it would be an immediate U turn.

The 7 seals are leading up to the Trumpets... so now?

When you say great tribulation, are you referring to the second half of the 7 years after the antichrist stands in the holy tabernacle in Jerusalem and (falsely) pronouces to the world that he is God?

This is why I have to have a complicated chart. The 'great tribulation' is not the '2nd half of the 7 years'. The 'great tribulation' begins in Dan 9:26, the people of the prince to come destroy the city and sanctuary' - this is the destruction of the current Babylon, #6 Babylon, the 'one that is' from Revelation 17:10. The 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet are the 'people of the prince to come'. It is the 'locusts' that cut off the daily sacrifices - see Joel 1:4-9. At the end of the 5 months, the 'winter, Sabbath' great tribulation occurs: the 6th Trumpet in Rev 9:13-21.

After the month of 'great tribulation', THEN the Dan 9:27 covenant is confirmed by the 'mighty angel' of Rev 10 who 'swears an oath'. This covenant is broken at the 7th Trumpet.

As to Doug making good charts, I completely disagree.

I chose that view because Scripture just isn't definitive enough to be firm on whether it is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture. I am skeptical of a post-tribulation rapture as a premillinialist which is why I created this thread only for premillenials. It doesn't make sense to me to have a post-tribulation view because in effect it would be an immediate U turn.

I do not believe in a post tribulation rapture. There is no such thing as a 'rapture'. I am a premillenialist - the kingdom of God has not arrived yet.

Won't you listen to Jesus in John 17:15?

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.​

Jesus is praying to God not to 'whisk people away from the world' but protect them from the 'evil one'.

That is what is happening at the beginning of the Trumpets - that is the meaning of Feast of Tabernacles

Rev 7

14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

15“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.​

God will shelter the faithful - the 144,000 are sealed. Shelter is 'tabernacle'. It's the same idea as God protecting the faithful in John 17:15 above.

I have a whole thread about it. Sukkot and Shushan Purim

 

[tranquil]

The locust creatures will come out of the bottomless pit. They are therefore not men.

It is symbolic of their wickedness.

This is but one example

Judges 6

1Again the Israelites did evil in the sight of the LORD; so He delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, 2and the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel. Because of the Midianites, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in the mountains, caves, and strongholds.​

​

3Whenever the Israelites would plant their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites, and other people of the east would come up and invade them, 4encamping against them as far as Gaza and destroying the produce of the land. They left Israel with no sustenance, neither sheep nor oxen nor donkeys. 5For the Midianites came with their livestock and their tents like a great swarm of locusts. They and their camels were innumerable, and they entered the land to ravage it.​

 

[Douggg]

It is symbolic of their wickedness.

The bottomless pit is the location which the locust creatures emerge from.