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What do you think about Pentecostals?

rockytopva

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I first saw the light of day at a Marine Corps base in Camp Lejeune. My mother was a Marine brought up Pentecostal and my father was a Naval medic brought up Catholic. As a boy I use to enjoy the times my parents would drop me off at my grandmothers and I would take in all the beauty of their small Virginian farm. The people on mom’s side of the family were very poor, but lived very well, almost like a visit to the old Walton’s home. We as a family moved from place to place until we settled down in the Ann Arbor Michigan area in the 1970’s. My parents bought me a Yamaha dirt bike and I would have tons of fun riding both winter and summer.

One Sunday, while riding my bike in the early AM a church bus stopped and the driver yelled at me that I needed to be in church. The man’s name was Rod Moxely and the church was called the Fellowship Baptist church in Whitmore Lake, Michigan. To make a long story short the whole family ended up getting saved, the church expands, and attendance skyrockets from 80 to over 400. During this time as a teenager I would go on youth trips where the Holy Spirit would touch my heart. I went up for salvation many times as it always produced a spiritual sensation joyful and clean. We did have a revival at that time in which an evangelist really convicted the hearts and people would pray earnestly in the prayer rooms after church. I must say the Baptist had a whole lot going on for the children, lots of fun events that left me with a spiritually clean feeling every time and very challenged. All of the events were decent and well organized.

All I knew growing up was the Baptist church. I was convinced very young that the Baptist doctrine was the most superior. I am afraid I was rude to fellow Catholics and honestly believed that speaking of tongues was of the devil. The only thing I knew of Methodism was that they did not believe in drinking or playing cards, so I was not interested.

It came to pass that Rod Moxely passed away, the church experienced political trouble and the deacons would end up getting a guy nobody liked. So, the attendance plummeted, the congregation fell into natural things, and I would spend the rest of my teenage years working at a restaurant. On referring to the lost generation, I basically fell in with them. I then began to experience a growing lost feeling and instability of Spirit. Which is not a plus in this ‘lost generation,’ especially when folk are unstable as Christians! As Christ is our rock we should have a spiritually strong spirit as well as mind!

After graduating high school I decided to stay the summer with my Grandmother here in Virginia. I would get a job washing dishes in the morning and would put up hay in the evening/afternoon. There I began to get a taste of a totally different lifestyle. The people would work hard Monday-Friday, go to town on Saturday morning, some kind of constructive activity Saturday afternoon, and we had Saturday night prayer time at the church during the nights. Sundays were a day that the people would go to church, they would not work on Sundays, and return to church Sunday night There were also blue laws keeping places of businesses closed on Sunday. You could set your watch on their righteous routines, which I would later discover were Methodist ways handed down from the mid-1700’s. The area seemed to fit the old Tina Turner song “Nutbush City Limits:”

That summer I would put up hay with a QC analyst who kept the joy of the Lord alive in his heart all his years. He would shout in church, shout at home, and shout out in the hay field. I have never seen such joy in all my life. Not only was there a joy, but there was a richness in love as well. The people would really let you know that they loved you. In the old TV show the Waltons the family would talk to one another before going to bed. I have since learned that this was because the houses were so small. But despite the houses being small the people lived decently and in great love, joy, and peace.

So I fell in with them. I would go to the revivals and prayer meetings and live among the people. The services at the Pentecostal Holiness church were at this time very lively. People would shout, run the aisles, fall out in the Spirit, speak in tongues, and then wait for an interpretation. They would have prolonged alter services and would crowd the petitioners and encourage them to tarry and wait upon the Lord. There were times that the old guys would sit back in the pews weeping, and if they made eye contact with you they would declare, as souls around the alter fell out in the Spirit… “The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!” There were souls who would fall out in the Spirit and would have to be carried out of church.

At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, “Run Baby Run,” by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again… “Put the book down.” I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, “Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?” In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. “Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!” I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival until I went back to Michigan later that September.

So this Pentecostal thing is not real just because of a doctrine... But because of a personal experience.
 
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parsonsmom

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I was raised in an Assembly Of God Church, I attended the same church for about 15 years. I never realized, until about 2 years ago, that many of the things that I was raised to believe were wrong and out of context. Mainly what they teach about "speaking in tounges," and the way they teach salvation.

I started Bible College a year and a half ago, now that I am learning how to study God's word properly and hermeneutically enterprit scripture I can safely say that I will never be going back to another AOG church.

Im not trying to inflame or anger anyone that is AOG or Pentecostal, I just personally believe that they are a little off on their teachings.

What are your views on AOG churches? Do you believe they are accurate in what they teach? This isn't going to be a debate or anything, I just want to have a mature conversation with people.


Thank you Allen for bringing out a subject that needs to be discussed; I do not debate; however I love a good discussion; let me say to start with that there are a lot of misunderstandings of the Word; by leaders and etc. and unbelievers.
I believe the Word; is the Truth; that the Word is Jesus; In times like this is not a good thing to turn away from the truth. I know a lot about Religion; I don't like it; it perverts the meaning of the truth. would you give me your view; unobstructed by professors? Respectfully; Parsonsmom.
 
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HeraldOfTheHolyOne

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I've had some exposure to seminarians from King's College (Jack Hayford & Church on the Way's Seminary, a very widely known Pentecostal seminary) and have found such a lax stance on the importance of theology, with prevalent errors in both doctrine and practice, and with no understanding or substantial usage of the biblical languages in every person I've met who studied there. Not only this, but false doctrines concerning the Holy Spirit run rampant too. If that is the kind of spiritual leadership that the Pentecostal movement is producing, I think I rightly shouldn't be a part of it.

While I myself am not a cessationist, the experiences I've had with Pentecostals, whether they be seminarians or lay people (and I've grown up around a lot of Pentecostal influences and have Pentecostal friends) has been negative. In my own experience, I've seen a general lack of interest in studying God's Word, an absence of any basic knowledge of Church history, and even the outright acceptance of false prophets and false teachers. I have seen, however, the desire to worship God - and that is a positive thing. However, I feel as though many Pentecostals are guilty of failing to worship God with all of their mind, relying on spiritual experiences as the litmus test for truth rather than God's Word. There is of course the converse, that in my Reformed circles, we often fail to worship God with all of our hearts because we have a tendency to divorce our emotions and heart from worship (and wrongly so!) in favor of "cold, intellectual doctrine" (which, if it is biblical and taught, it should never be cold, it should change our lives!).

However, that of course does not mean that all Pentecostals are this way. Its just been my experience. I don't have any experience with anyone from the AoG movement except a Presbyterian friend who left it on account of what she perceived to be spiritual abuses and false doctrine.
 
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NorrinRadd

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i think like any church not every denomination has a 100% grasp on doctrine. what matters is the nature of salvation, and who God is. AoG is the major proponent of the Word of Faith movement which turns God into a vending machine and it is also taught that those saved must speak in tongues to be saved. this doesn't mean that all AoG churches teach these things, especially the WoF view, but many do. the speaking in tongues imo isn't a big ordeal because it is only one of many gifts. the WoF doctrines though are heretical, and people should run far and fast from these teachings.

i like to think of the pentecostals as the rowdy disfunctional part of the christian family:)

...
Knowing that God does not contradict himself, any conflict has come from man receiving the doctrine of devils. For instance, Pentecostals believe if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved. That's a lie of satan, not Gods holy truth. It's only through Christ we are saved; speaking in tongues is not part of the salvation plan.
...

As has been noted, the AG has officially repudiated "Positive Confession," which is arguably the signature doctrine of WoF.

Also, the belief that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved (or even to prove one is saved) is not held by the AG, Foursquare Church, or any major Pentecostal group.
 
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NorrinRadd

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There are a few things that I did not agree with, nothing major. The first thing was their doctrine of Salvation, I personally believe in predestination. They believe in free will. They also teach that you can lose your salvation, I believe once saved always saved.

Yes, most Pentecostals are Wesleyan, so they would differ from the Calvinist view. Some can slip into an excessive variant of Wesleyanism wherein violations of their rules of "holiness" can potentially lose one's salvation until and unless one repents. I hold more to classical Arminianism; I believe one cannot "lose" salvation, but can choose to voluntarily abandon it.

The last thing, it seems the way in which they use tongues is not biblical. In AOG, everyone in the church will be speaking in tounges, and there will be no interpreter or anything else.

The traditional Pentecostal view is that there are two "versions" of tongues: One is the "initial outward evidence" of being baptized in the Spirit, is given for the purpose of prayer and praise, and may be utilized by the believer at will; the other is a gift of the Spirit, is for the purpose of delivering messages (when paired with interpretation), and only manifests occasionally "as the Spirit wills." According to this view, only the "message" tongues are constrained by the "rules" laid out in 1 Cor. 14.

I hold the view that is becoming more common, especially among NT scholars: There is only one "version" of tongues, and it is for prayer and praise. It is available to all or nearly all believers, and can be utilized at will. In the assembly, it is usually preferable to limit use of the ability, and to make sure to pair it with interpretation.
 
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NorrinRadd

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I only ever see AOG churches in poor, rural areas or those settled by recent immigrants - usually from Mexico or Russia. ...

Dude, seriously -- REALLY need to get out more.
 
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NorrinRadd

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I think that they are mentally insane and need to seek psychiatric aide.

They go around uttering a few "hobidy bobidy boos" and they think that God is talking through them.

Yes. Fruit loops.

I've had some exposure to seminarians from King's College (Jack Hayford & Church on the Way's Seminary, a very widely known Pentecostal seminary) and have found such a lax stance on the importance of theology, with prevalent errors in both doctrine and practice, and with no understanding or substantial usage of the biblical languages in every person I've met who studied there. Not only this, but false doctrines concerning the Holy Spirit run rampant too. If that is the kind of spiritual leadership that the Pentecostal movement is producing, I think I rightly shouldn't be a part of it.

While I myself am not a cessationist, the experiences I've had with Pentecostals, whether they be seminarians or lay people (and I've grown up around a lot of Pentecostal influences and have Pentecostal friends) has been negative. In my own experience, I've seen a general lack of interest in studying God's Word, an absence of any basic knowledge of Church history, and even the outright acceptance of false prophets and false teachers. I have seen, however, the desire to worship God - and that is a positive thing. However, I feel as though many Pentecostals are guilty of failing to worship God with all of their mind, relying on spiritual experiences as the litmus test for truth rather than God's Word. There is of course the converse, that in my Reformed circles, we often fail to worship God with all of our hearts because we have a tendency to divorce our emotions and heart from worship (and wrongly so!) in favor of "cold, intellectual doctrine" (which, if it is biblical and taught, it should never be cold, it should change our lives!).

However, that of course does not mean that all Pentecostals are this way. Its just been my experience. I don't have any experience with anyone from the AoG movement except a Presbyterian friend who left it on account of what she perceived to be spiritual abuses and false doctrine.

It's amusing to think that such respected scholars as Gordon Fee (AG; NT scholar), Craig Keener (Baptist; NT scholar), Ben Witherington (Methodist; NT scholar), and Wayne Grudem (Baptist; Systematic Theologian) are all at least ignorant, and most likely insane. :D
 
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NorrinRadd

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in many other penecostal church it's true

Maybe it's regional. I've been to dozens of Pentecostal churches here in western PA, of various denominations and affiliations, and none have such rules.
 
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mark kennedy

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Dude, seriously -- REALLY need to get out more.

The AOG churches are pretty diverse and it's a large denomination. I fellowshiped with a church in California for a little over a year. I didn't see a lot of difference between them and the Baptists, they certainly had the same attitude regarding water baptism. I've got some significant differences regarding tongues but when the subject came up we got past it pretty quickly. No matter what you think of some of their doctrines they are New Testament Christians with a very active lay ministry. Being something of a Calvinist Wesleyan hybrid myself I had no trouble extending the right hand of fellowship.

The Apostolics are in pretty serious error, they deny the Trinity and require tongues for salvation. When they first arrived on the Pentecostal scene the AOG churches rejected them as a non-christian cult. The Holiness Church when the Pentecostals first started distinguishing themselves doctrinally drew some pretty harsh criticism but that's what happens when church groups split. Other then some pretty serious doctrinal problems in general and the Apostolic antitrinitarian views I think they are benign, good natured and gentle folks. Just wish they knew more about their own theology, they have one of the best around.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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NorrinRadd

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I think perhaps in Post 166 I was concise to the point of being unclear. I've been to numerous Pentecostal churches, including several different AGs. AG churches vary in character and setting. At least two of the ones I visited were relatively "up scale." I'm sure they *also* exist in the "poor, rural" and "recent immigrant" areas, as the poster to whom I replied suggested, but around here they are certainly not limited to such.

It was a long-time stereotype that Pentecostalism was mostly the province of the poor and uneducated, but that's been largely incorrect for 30 years or more.
 
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NorrinRadd

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I know an AoG Pastor. He's a nice man, and the people I know who are Pentecostal have a "zeal, but not according to knowledge." The fact of the matter is, as a Lutheran, I confess from the Smalcald Articles: Therefore we ought and must constantly maintain this point, that God does not wish to deal with us otherwise than through the spoken Word and the Sacraments.

Most of my family is Lutheran, and there are things I appreciate about Lutheranism -- not least of which is this.

However I identify much more with Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. I find any system that is formal, liturgical, and sacramental to carry over far too much from the Obsolete Covenant.

The entire Pentecostal teaching is dangerous to me because it's seeking to find God outside of his Word and Sacrament. Rather than know what God clearly says in his Word, the Pentecostal seeks to receive the Spirit so that he can better know God's will.

This is inaccurate. It is *because* we see IN GOD'S WORD that it is our privilege to experience Him directly through the presence of His Spirit that we seek to do so.


Also the teaching of Pentecostalism implies a two-tier system of Christians. Those who are saved, and those who are truly Spirit-filled.

That is somewhat true of traditional Pentecostalism, but even in that construct, the filling of the Spirit is freely available to all, not something that must be earned.

(Admittedly, some Pentecostals have not always been clear on this point, nor have some Evangelicals who see sanctification as a "second work.")

I would also point out that any group that has a formal "clergy" has a two-tier Xianity -- arguably more so than many Pentecostal groups.


There's also a heavy emphasis on works performed by the believer (emptying, tarrying, etc.)...

This is largely an archaic perception.


to the point where I can't even tell if Pentecostals believe in Justification by Faith Alone (which they claim).

Their/our view is typical Wesleyan.


Pentecostalism is nothing new though. Even in the Middle Ages through today the pope claims he receives special revelation from God over and above the Word. Methodists receive special knowledge and fuller understanding through prayer and fasting...over and above the Word. As far as the exegesis, you'll notice that in Acts, the Holy Spirit is always given in connection and with Baptism(!).

Only if you define "in connection with baptism" pretty loosely.


God gives his full salvation and gift through Holy Baptism, Holy water Baptism. Not with Baptism in the Spirit (not found in the NT) or in Confirmation (again, not in Acts or the NT).

If you believe "baptism in the Spirit" is not found in the NT, I believe your NT is defective.
 
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thesunisout

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As has been noted, the AG has officially repudiated "Positive Confession," which is arguably the signature doctrine of WoF.

Also, the belief that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved (or even to prove one is saved) is not held by the AG, Foursquare Church, or any major Pentecostal group.

You're right; I am actually a member of an AG church, although I consider myself to be non-denominational. When I wrote that post I was brimming with zeal but did not have the corresponding knowledge to go with it. There are pentecostals who do believe that if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved, but the majority do not hold that view as I now know. I don't agree with all of the AG doctrine, especially concerning women serving as pastors and their view on demonization. In any case, my opinion of denominations in general hasn't changed, but I do see that God uses all of it and that God will call people to specific churches for specific reasons. I am called to this AG church even though I have not, as far as I know, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have prayed for it but as yet I do not believe I have received it.

The churches in my community all work together in different ministries, and despite the denominational differences, we are functioning as a body. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, of course. Even though I don't agree with the concept of denominations, it doesn't mean God can't use them and He is using them here in this community to show them that we as Christians can look past our differences and come together in unity and love. According to John 17, this is the evidence to the world that Jesus is who the bible says He is, that He was sent by the Father to redeem us.
 
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mark kennedy

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I think perhaps in Post 166 I was concise to the point of being unclear. I've been to numerous Pentecostal churches, including several different AGs. AG churches vary in character and setting. At least two of the ones I visited were relatively "up scale." I'm sure they *also* exist in the "poor, rural" and "recent immigrant" areas, as the poster to whom I replied suggested, but around here they are certainly not limited to such.

It was a long-time stereotype that Pentecostalism was mostly the province of the poor and uneducated, but that's been largely incorrect for 30 years or more.

If you can point to two things that distinguish the Pentecostal movement it's that they are diverse (breeching the homogenous barrier) and almost universally fundamentalist. Baptists, the only movement that can rival them in size and diversity is no where near as consistent in their rejection of modernist philosophy.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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NorrinRadd

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If you can point to two things that distinguish the Pentecostal movement it's that they are diverse (breeching the homogenous barrier) and almost universally fundamentalist. Baptists, the only movement that can rival them in size and diversity is no where near as consistent in their rejection of modernist philosophy.

Grace and peace,
Mark

How do you define "fundamentalist" and "modernist philosophy"? (In regard to the former, for example, "fundamentalist" can mean anything from the bare-bones "Five Fundamentals" to the entire mindset of legalism and hyper-literalism.)
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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You're right; I am actually a member of an AG church, although I consider myself to be non-denominational. When I wrote that post I was brimming with zeal but did not have the corresponding knowledge to go with it. There are pentecostals who do believe that if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved, but the majority do not hold that view as I now know. I don't agree with all of the AG doctrine, especially concerning women serving as pastors and their view on demonization. In any case, my opinion of denominations in general hasn't changed, but I do see that God uses all of it and that God will call people to specific churches for specific reasons. I am called to this AG church even though I have not, as far as I know, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have prayed for it but as yet I do not believe I have received it.

The churches in my community all work together in different ministries, and despite the denominational differences, we are functioning as a body. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, of course. Even though I don't agree with the concept of denominations, it doesn't mean God can't use them and He is using them here in this community to show them that we as Christians can look past our differences and come together in unity and love. According to John 17, this is the evidence to the world that Jesus is who the bible says He is, that He was sent by the Father to redeem us.

Former AG member here, and I also always thought of myself as non-denominational. :wave:

I had no major theological disagreements, and I remain charismatic --though in a post-charismatic way (cf. Robby McAlpine) -- but for cultural and political reasons I could no longer identify with American conservative evangelicalism. It was a semi-alien subculture to me to begin with, and the 2012 political season, in the form of Rick Santorum and several ballot measures, brought home to me just how alien it was, prompting my exit to an "emergent" Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian church.
 
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Albion

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How do you define "fundamentalist" and "modernist philosophy"? (In regard to the former, for example, "fundamentalist" can mean anything from the bare-bones "Five Fundamentals" to the entire mindset of legalism and hyper-literalism.)

You're right that Mark Kennedy's description of Protestantism doesn't bear much connection to the facts, but we ought not respond in kind with a propagandistic re-definition of "Fundamentalist" made to mean "the entire mindset of legalism and hyper-literalism."
 
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Bill McEnaney

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I don't know what to think of Pentecostals, but charismatic services frighten me. Imagine how much I worried when a woman laughed while she rolled on the floor during the sermon. A young man seemed offended when I asked whether he felt well when he prostrated then. I kept worrying, "Oh no, if someone dies at this emotionally charged service, no one will notice." Now that the Traditional Latin Mass is the only service I attend, I get to contemplate quietly.
 
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Albion

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I don't know what to think of Pentecostals, but charismatic services frighten me. Imagine how much I worried when a woman laughed while she rolled on the floor during the sermon. A young man seemed offended when I asked whether he felt well when he prostrated then. I kept worrying, "Oh no, if someone dies at this emotionally charged service, no one will notice." Now that the Traditional Latin Mass is the only service I attend, I get to contemplate quietly.

Yep. There are a hundred different worship styles to be found somewhere or other, and I suppose that everyone ought to find one that is the most edifying for him personally.
 
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Bill McEnaney

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Albion, I just wrote about a merely stylistic difference, I pray. Sadly, for me, that's hard to believe when I remember a tape I heard years ago, where Fr. Vincent Miceli interviewed Professor Russell Hittinger. At the miracle service Dr. Hittinger described, Kathryn Kuhlman the faith healer invited a woman to join her on stage because she thought Our Lord had cured that woman's injured back. She complied, Kuhlman told her to run back and forth after she took off her brace. She did, her spine split, and a few days later, she died. No doctor examined her at the service, no one called an ambulance. For all I know, with the right medical treatments, she would have survived.

Charismatic healing services still give me mixed feeling, though, because at a charismatic Mass, I swooned when the priest, another faith healer, put two fingers on my right shoulder. After I floated to the floor, I sobbed for about 20 minutes until some volunteers lifted me into my wheelchair. While another priest took my pulse, I told him, "Father, I'm glad you guided me down because if you hadn't done that, I would have cracked my head open on the concrete floor." "Nobody was in 10 feet of you." "What?" I saw hands on my shoulder blades."

Maybe that event was supernatural, maybe not. All I know is that someone or something there made me stop obsessing about whether Our Lord would cure my Cerebral Palsy. Today I feel content to keep it for the rest of my life because I think he'll use it to help other people.

Be careful, everyone. Sometimes we can mistake purely natural happenings for supernatural ones. So I feel much safer when I my feelings don't get too strong.
 
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Albion

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Albion, I just wrote about a merely stylistic difference
I know.

But within each faith tradition there often are--not always but often--variances in style. If so, they appeal to different people, and that's all to the good.
 
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