What Do You Think About A.A. Allen? This May Surprise You!

[habeas]

Pickled octopus demon? Mmm..yum! You are making me hungry!

 

[JimB]

Pickled octopus demon? Mmm..yum! You are making me hungry!

Sounds like Fear Factor, huh? Still, that octopus-demon would have been easier to swallow than Allen’s doctrine of ‘commanding’ God to heal sick people (based on Isaiah 45.11, see #60 above), IMO.

BTW, since we (I) am on the subject, what do you think Isaiah 45.11 means? It says, “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.”

Allen taught that this verse gives us the right to order/direct/command God to provide for our needs – healing, finances (always finances, of course), desires, etc. - that the verse gives us permission to order God to do our bidding. Do you think Allen had a good point? Some still think he did (see here). If not, what do you think the verse means?

~Jim

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You know, you may have led a very sheltered life, Oscarr. I have seldom heard a good word about A.A.A. (may God have mercy on his soul). Like I said in previous posts, I think he is one of the most tragic public figures to ever engage in 'ministry' (so called).

But I do agree with you that I am personally uncomfortable with threads that mention names. Still, would your counseling course say that it is ‘permissible’ to talk about methods (as in schemes, deception) and/or duplicity and dishonesty in the ministry? Or are these off limits, too.

If we talk about fraud, there is a lot of it attached to the ‘ministry’ in question.

~Jim

I think that it is not only permissible but vital that we do teach people in counseling courses about the difference between a God directed honest ministry and one where all the negative attributes that we have been dealing with on this thread are present. Christian counsellors have a full time job these days putting back together the shipwrecked lives that are produced through big name ministries that have got off the rails.

But if you read the writings of A A Allen, you will find them very sound and scripture based. These books were undoubtedly produced during the authentic part of his early ministry. I think that if we can separate those works from the inappropriate bits of his later ministry, I think we have some really great Bible teaching on healing and deliverance.

Also, the type of ministry Allen had in casting out of demons would have made him a prime target for the enemy, and being a finite man, could well have fallen through the attacks and deceptions that the devil would have used to neutralise his ministry.

I received his Miracle magazine for a number of years through the late 1960s and the early 1970s. I did notice the 'demons' that were lying on the stage after deliverances, and had comprehensive doubts about that. I also was put off by the constant appeals for money. Actually, that was the reason why I stopped getting his magazine, because it contained so many begging advertisements that they outweighed the ministry parts of it.

The account of his death included him lying in his hotel room surrounded by empty bottles and his pockets full of money from his last crusade. Like many itinerate preachers, and salesmen for that matter, he lived out of a suitcase and in one hotel room after another. It is easy to see that he drank to try and ease the loneliness he obviously felt at many times.

This brings up the question.. When a man gets to a point where he is the top dog, who ministers to him? if he gets to a point where he is esteemed to such a high degree that no one feels qualified to minister to him, there is no one to give him the ministry that he needs. He rises above correction and guidance, and that is a very dangerous place for any minister, great or small.

So yes, Allen is a tragic case, and would be a lesson to us all not to rise up so high in our own estimations and in the estimations of others that we insulate ourselves from our brothers and sisters when it comes to guidance and correction.

I wonder if Allen realised that he had got himself up a gum tree with his ministry, and it was too difficult to go back the way he came? Pretty stressful keeping up a pretense when you know that you are pretending and too frightened of the consequences of honestly stating that you are past it.

Look at Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart. The former defrauded thousands of people, and the latter used the offering money to spend on expensive prostitutes. Christian counsellors would have had to work hard to restore the faith of the thousands of vulnerable Christians who would have been devastated and disillusioned by the antics of those two.

So, yes. I would include the attributes of honest and false ministries in any counselling course I would run.

I think we might be tending toward ... might I say it... Agreeability?

O A

 

[paladin0260]

PA, I couldn't help but notice that you are a little on the defensive side. My advice to you would be to be a little more patient with others opinions, especially when you are attacking someone. I would also say you might want to work on your tact. I understand that you are trying to make others aware of fraudulent christianity, but their major concern is that, by doing it in this fashion, you are prepetuating the very problem you are trying to fix. Paul said that whether Christ be preached in truth, or by contention, He is still preached. God is able to prophesy through donkeys and make rocks lead in praise and worship, He can work though people like Mr. Allen just the same. Mr. Allen will and has answered for his actions as will we all some day.

 

[habeas]

Sounds like Fear Factor, huh? Still, that octopus-demon would have been easier to swallow than Allen’s doctrine of ‘commanding’ God to heal sick people (based on Isaiah 45.11, see #60 above), IMO.

BTW, since we (I) am on the subject, what do you think Isaiah 45.11 means? It says, “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.”

Allen taught that this verse gives us the right to order/direct/command God to provide for our needs – healing, finances (always finances, of course), desires, etc. - that the verse gives us permission to order God to do our bidding. Do you think Allen had a good point? Some still think he did (see here). If not, what do you think the verse means?

~Jim

I think when we consider this together with what Jesus taught and how he prayed, the answer is fairly clear.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

and the Lord's prayer: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"

If we have the holy spirit in us and we pray for things not after our flesh but for things which are absolutely in accordance with God's will, we are to command God, the way deliverance minister will command spirits to leave, etc in the name of Jesus. We command God to do that which is His will by faith. If we are not sure of His will, then we'd better preface our prayer, with "if it be thy will."

Now, if I command God to make a Mercedes appear in my driveway to satisfy my fleshly desires, then I am out of His Will. He never promised me the desires of my flesh. I believe that verse is speaking to the child of God to command that God's will be done in a particular situation.

It appears that the Lord wants us to "command" or demand His will to be done to show our faith in Him before he will act in certain situations. He desires faith and interaction with his children.

 

[JimB]

I think when we consider this together with what Jesus taught and how he prayed, the answer is fairly clear.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

and the Lord's prayer: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"

If we have the holy spirit in us and we pray for things not after our flesh but for things which are absolutely in accordance with God's will, we are to command God, the way deliverance minister will command spirits to leave, etc in the name of Jesus. We command God to do that which is His will by faith. If we are not sure of His will, then we'd better preface our prayer, with "if it be thy will."

Now, if I command God to make a Mercedes appear in my driveway to satisfy my fleshly desires, then I am out of His Will. He never promised me the desires of my flesh. I believe that verse is speaking to the child of God to command that God's will be done in a particular situation.

It appears that the Lord wants us to "command" or demand His will to be done to show our faith in Him before he will act in certain situations. He desires faith and interaction with his children.

Actually, I do have an interpretation of Isaiah 45.11 (as I bet you already guessed ). In the KJV, the one Allen used, the phrase “command ye me” is a declarative/exclamatory statement (there were not punctuation marks in the original language, so the context had to determine whether the text was declarative, exclamatory, imperative, or interrogatory). The KJV interpreters saw it as declarative/exclamatory when they translated it “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.”

But modern translations see the sentence as interrogatory:

NIV: This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?”

AMP:Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Would you question Me about things to come concerning My children, and concerning the work of My hands [would you] command Me?

NLT: This is what the LORD, the Creator and Holy One of Israel, says: "Do you question what I do? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?

CEV: I am the LORD, the Creator, the holy God of Israel. Do you dare question me about my own nation or about what I have done?

~Jim

 

[JimB]

One has to wonder what God thought when he saw the diminutive little 5’7” evangelist issuing him orders to heal someone or exorcize a demon in his shrill high-pitched voice. I wonder if the Lord actually said, “Yes, sir!” and obedyed orders.

~Jim

 

[akasmom]

I just saw this thread for the first time now, this morning. You know what's weird? I posted on habeas' thread about abusing spiritual gifts

there is also an issue that when starting on this, habeas was looking for the Word of God, and had faith to hear from Him, and to bless the one she saw as His minister. God honored that, because he always honors His Word and your faith. That's why you get preachers who are not walking perfectly, but miracles happen anyway, because we carry this treasure in earthen vessels but it is His treasure nonetheless.

When I was posting last night, I turned to my husband and said "who was that preacher that had the terrible drinking problem but people used to get saved and healed at his meetings anyway?" He said "A.A. Allen" but when I wrote his name as an example, I felt like the Lord was saying don't put specific people in there, you can make the point without mentioning names. Am I the only one that gets this sort of check?

 

[habeas]

Actually, I do have an interpretation of Isaiah 45.11 (as I bet you already guessed ). In the KJV, the one Allen used, the phrase “command ye me” is a declarative/exclamatory statement (there were not punctuation marks in the original language, so the context had to determine whether the text was declarative, exclamatory, imperative, or interrogatory). The KJV interpreters saw it as declarative/exclamatory when they translated it “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.”

But modern translations see the sentence as interrogatory:

NIV: This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?”

AMP:Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Would you question Me about things to come concerning My children, and concerning the work of My hands [would you] command Me?

NLT: This is what the LORD, the Creator and Holy One of Israel, says: "Do you question what I do? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?

CEV: I am the LORD, the Creator, the holy God of Israel. Do you dare question me about my own nation or about what I have done?

~Jim

Hmm.. Well, I only have the KJV. I don't want to get into a translation debate (don't have the credentials anyway), but Jesus said in the KJV Mark 11:22-24:

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

I think the other translations line up similarly. Anyway, again, considering these verses in conjunction with the "Thy will" verses cited, supra, there is a definitely a "commandment" aspect of our interaction with God taught by Jesus in the NT which mirrors Isaiah 45:11 in OT. There are other examples of this in NT, of which I'm sure you are aware. Of course, Jesus was using the mountain as an example, but was not literally suggesting that anyone should command that particular mountain to be cast into the sea (or suggesting that God's will was for the mountain to be so moved at that time).

I find myself praying sometimes in "commandment" mode, e.g., Lord, take this burden off of me! (sometimes,His answer is, "No," not now...or no, this is to humble you.., or simply, "No!" - I don't mean that I hear this aloud, rather in my spirit I sense this). I'm not convinced that God's will is for us to be in perfect physical health here on this earth. Paul might have gotten the "big head" without the thorn in his flesh.

But...back to commanding or demanding: Can you imagine a deliverance ministry in which the minister prayed, "Lord, if it be Thy Will, and only if it be thy Will, Lord, please cast this evil spirit out of Mr. Smith? Thank you for hearing my prayer." This is not effective.

 

[Svt4Him]

Another care group type thread where everyone brings out their guns to shoot others because it's just so encouraging. He's dead and I wasn't there when it happened. Personally I think it's gossip to say what was or wasn't going on, and what does the Bible say about gossip?

 

[9-iron]

Well I for one appreciate ProAmerican!! I don't fully agree with his way of thinking, but he sure does make you stop and think about these people. Nothing wrong with taking a look into the credibility and integrity of those on the P/C forefront. Of course, what turns one into a 'H-Hunter' is the fact we don't allow for human weakness or error!! Even Billy Graham has had some 'human error' moments during his ministry.

 

[habeas]

I just found something very disturbing, and I don't think I want to talk about A.A. Allen.

 

[habeas]

BTW, HAPPY B-DAY Jim! (sorry I don't have any fancy smilies!)

 

[Svt4Him]

Well I for one appreciate ProAmerican!! I don't fully agree with his way of thinking, but he sure does make you stop and think about these people. Nothing wrong with taking a look into the credibility and integrity of those on the P/C forefront. Of course, what turns one into a 'H-Hunter' is the fact we don't allow for human weakness or error!! Even Billy Graham has had some 'human error' moments during his ministry.

Nothing wrong with gossip? Or how about we all take a look at your sins, is that what God wants us to do? And I thought we were suppose to encourage each other, and I was pretty sure I never read that love keeps a pretty long list of wrongs, and is quick to believe the worst. Could just be me.

 

[Heinrich]

I know very little about AA Alen.
I read a book about him. (well one chapter actually) He seemed to have made some very big mistakes. But I think He also did alot of good things.
Remember that Satan always loves to twist truth afterwards.

Find me a great preacher that has got a few "scams" around him/her?
I can by searching only a little make Smith Wiggleworth looked like the biggest nut case the world has ever seen... but that doesn't make it true.

Never be quick to judge.
And who said that thing about "God saved/healed people despite of him rather than because of him"
I think it's just as valid to say "God can use any of us despite our weaknesses"
That is the Glory of God.

cheers

 

[JimB]

Heinrich, Satan didn’t twist the truth “afterward”. I followed Allen (from a distance) throughout the late 60s and he had already sold out to sleaze. Sorry, but I was there. You weren’t even a gleam in someone’s eye yet, so I would not lecture those of us who were there.

As for Wigglesworth …? Well, suffice to say, he had clay feet just like everyone else. And much of what we know about him is legend mixed with fact and its hard to separate the two.

I remember one fabled Texas Pentecostal evangelist had fantastic tales grow up in the wake of a very successful ministry. When he was in his 80s he laughed and said he only wished half of what was said about him was true but most of it was just embellished or made-up stories about him.

Sigh.

~Jim

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Heinrich, Satan didn’t twist the truth “afterward”. I followed Allen (from a distance) throughout the late 60s and he had already sold out to sleaze. Sorry, but I was there. You weren’t even a gleam in someone’s eye yet, so I would not lecture those of us who were there.

As for Wigglesworth …? Well, suffice to say, he had clay feet just like everyone else. And much of what we know about him is legend mixed with fact and its hard to separate the two.

I remember one fabled Texas Pentecostal evangelist had fantastic tales grow up in the wake of a very successful ministry. When he was in his 80s he laughed and said he only wished half of what was said about him was true but most of it was just embellished or made-up stories about him.

Sigh.

~Jim

I had the privilege of having a lot of fellowship with the man who was the pianist for Smith Wigglesworth when he did his NZ tours, so I got facts about him that the general public might not have got. This is why I hold him in such high esteem. But he is a rare model. He so believed in divine healing that he refused to have any medical treatment at all. He suffered for years with stones in his bladder, and he refused an operation to get rid of them. He passed them all over a period of time and went through a lot of pain doing that. I guess that he wanted to model what he preached even though it caused him much pain and discomfort.

I can't imagine modern day healing preachers doing that. They would be in the hospital as fast as possible if something went wrong with them.

Well, it's the old chinese whispers syndrome, isn't it? Stories passed from one person to another... by the time it gets down the line it could be quite different from the original.

 

[JimB]

I had the privilege of having a lot of fellowship with the man who was the pianist for Smith Wigglesworth when he did his NZ tours, so I got facts about him that the general public might not have got. This is why I hold him in such high esteem. But he is a rare model. He so believed in divine healing that he refused to have any medical treatment at all. He suffered for years with stones in his bladder, and he refused an operation to get rid of them. He passed them all over a period of time and went through a lot of pain doing that. I guess that he wanted to model what he preached even though it caused him much pain and discomfort.

I can't imagine modern day healing preachers doing that. They would be in the hospital as fast as possible if something went wrong with them.

Well, it's the old chinese whispers syndrome, isn't it? Stories passed from one person to another... by the time it gets down the line it could be quite different from the original.

Hey Oscarr. I really love your posts. Still, I have to say that, despite the legends and reports of Wigglesworth’s faith for his own healing, his daughter who assisted in his meetings, was never healed of her deafness and there is records that Wigglesworth, just like the rest of us, suffered illness, including the three years you mentioned that he suffered with gallstones. Mary Boddy, a friend of Wigglesworth, who laid hands on him for the “baptism in the Holy Spirit” in 1907 spent the last sixteen years of her life as a invalid despite her relationship with the legendary healer.

Please understand, I am not belittling Wigglesworth, I am sure his was a remarkable life with many miracles occurring in his ministry. It’s just that so much of what we know about him is myth that we will never know truth from fiction. We’ll just have to wait until we get to heaven to ask him.

~Jim

 

[9-iron]

Nothing wrong with gossip?

Yes, If ProAmerican was spreading gossip it would be a problem. As of yet, his post haven't contained gossip.

And I thought we were suppose to encourage each other, and I was pretty sure I never read that love keeps a pretty long list of wrongs, and is quick to believe the worst. Could just be me.

Yes and there is nothing wrong with encouraging one another examine material being taught. Love keeps no wrongs, but I can remember the Apostle Paul speaking of 'keeping your nose clean'!!

I don't have a problem giving anyone, especially the 'high-profilers' a little allowance. I am not their judge, however, when an evangelist is surrounded by controversy, I want to know about it. There is a difference in someone drinking vs. someone falling into apostasy.

IF, IF this man was holding a octopus on stage claiming it was a demon, I'm not following the man. I'm also going to be careful with his prior teachings.

 

[Normann]

Thus, when Allen... ...was arrested for drunk driving during a Tennessee revival in 1955..........

.......What do you think?

This part I know for sure first hand, the rest I've not heard until now. Being he died I find now reason to further examine him as God will judge him or reward him- one or the other!

I do know that these days we have many people who claim to be of God and they are not.

I would rather go to hell from the house of a prostitute then to go from a pulpit being a false teacher.

I preach the Gospel in fear (ie. great respect to God).

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann