What do you see masturbating as? Sin? Sorry about all the topics you must have!

[Dannager]

It is certainly learned behaviour in boys and men.

What about girls and women? And how would you know?

Innately they know it is wrong, but ungodly reasoning supplants the voice of God in them.

Innately they know it is wrong? I've never once even gotten the inkling of a notion that it's somehow wrong, except from those trying to push their religious views on others.

Never. There is nothing natural about it. You purvey a lie to weak men.

So when animals do it, it's not natural? Could you define natural for me, then? Because I have a really hard time considering anything that animals do in the wild to be somehow "unnatural".

Unless you are an anomalous, huge and incognizant fetus, you do not fit the description of such behaviour being in any way natural.

Ah, so you acknowledge that it is natural for a fetus? And an animal? And an infant? And thus is not a learned behavior? And is not contingent upon sinful thought?

My belief "system" is not fragile in the least.

It's made of glass, Floatingaxe. You're padding it with rhetoric and dodging blows, because if you let anything hit home and actually register, those beliefs would shatter into a million pieces, likely taking your faith with them. That's because your faith rests upon this glass foundation.

I belief god;s word about it and I hold to it. God has never let anyone down who believes in Him, and He will not ever let me down concerning this toipic either.

God lets people down all the time, but you console each other by saying it's "all part of God's plan". You don't need to defend God here. He's not under attack. Your beliefs are.

It is a sin, plainly. God wants your full devotion nand for you to have control over yourself. Masturbation is a major problem with self-control.

No, excessive masturbation is a problem with self-control, just like excessive eating is a problem with self-control. Masturbation in moderation is considered by all professional medical and psychiatric groups to be normal and healthy.

 

[Dannager]

Not siding either way anymore, not worth it. However, I just want to say that something being "natural" does not mean it is not "sinful". As a matter of fact, Scripture teaches are very nature is sinful, and that's why any man in Christ is a new creation and the old must pass away. Again, I don't care to be involved in this back and forth any longer, just throwing out there that being "natural" does not justify it as not being "sinful". You don't have to teach an infant to sin, to throw tantrums, to lie or bend the truth, to take things that aren't theirs or anything else; it's "natural", it's self-serving because at our core we are all that, but it's still sinful.

Much love in Christ.

I can certainly agree with that. I have no problem debating whether or not masturbation is sinful. But when someone decides that, to protect their religious views, they're going to take the ridiculous position that it's somehow unnatural, I have a problem.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I can certainly agree with that. I have no problem debating whether or not masturbation is sinful. But when someone decides that, to protect their religious views, they're going to take the ridiculous position that it's somehow unnatural, I have a problem.

Yes, I see you are rife with problems!

It's unnatural to call it natural! Your belief "system" is dodgy at best.

 

[Dannager]

Yes, I see you are rife with problems!

It's unnatural to call it natural! Your belief "system" is dodgy at best.

Please respond to my post, Floatingaxe. Personal attacks will not win over anyone.

Also, note that this is font size five. You have avoided the same question four times now, and have recently decided that instead of addressing the debate you're going to screw with my posts and use them to insult me.

Exhibit a modicum of maturity, please.

 

[KerrMetric]

It's unnatural to call it natural! Your belief "system" is dodgy at best.

That's about all you bring to the table isn't it? Make the inference that someone else is a lesser Christian than you. Like that's possible.

 

[Jedi]

Oh, this old discussion. I'm still waiting from someone - anyone - to show me a single verse or passage in scripture that condemns masturbation either explicitly or by principle. Odd how this seems to be such a daunting task for those who so adamantly claim masturbation is inherently sinful. You'd think they would have something to back up their condemnations.

It's unnatural to call it natural!

According to what authority? Scripture (if so, where)? You (if so, why are you an authority to be considered)? Considering masturbation is so widespread and exhibited even by some animals, it would seem quite "natural" (in the sense of "how things occur if left to themselves"). Personally, I think this is a moot point, as whether or not something is natural has no bearing on its moral excellence. My problem with people condemning masturbation as inherently sinful is that they have shown no basis for such condemnation and any act is morally innocent until proven guilty.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

It seems that this whole discussion is revolving around the question: "is masturbation natural, or not?"

Well, let's examine the two sides of the argument:

Argument for 'natural':

1. Animals and infants do it. (Never heard of this, but I'll assume it's correct for now).
2. Therefore, it's not a learned behavior, but a natural one.
3. We don't call other natural behaviors sinful.
4. So masturbation is not sinful.

Arguments against 'natural':

1. BloodwashedPilgrim made a great point that natural doesn't always equal good. After all, our nature is fallen! Bad tree, bad fruit.

2. We are educated Christians, not animals or infants. They might not know it's wrong, but if we do, we should not do it. God expects a higher moral standard of us than of animals.

3. Adult humans have the ability to make choices. Many natural behaviors and functions 'just happen', we don't choose them. But people who touch choose to do so. This makes it either a different sort of natural behavior, or not a natural behavior at all.

You might argue that people don't actually choose to touch, but I would disagree. Whenever we are tempted to do something (anything!) there comes a moment when we choose to either give in, or resist, the temptation. It's still a choice. This sets it apart from other 'body functions'.

So which choice is the right one?

Everything that God made has a purpose. Sexual desire was created for marriage between a man and a woman - well that's what I believe. It's a 'natural' thing, and there's nothing wrong with it.
CS Lewis once said that badness is spoiled goodness. It's misused goodness.
So when we take something good and use it for something that it wasn't intended for, it usually becomes something bad.
I would argue that when we take the sexual desire and put it outside of it's proper place, we are corrupting it.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

This is why I believe that masturbation is a sin. It's taking something 'natural' (sexual desire) and putting it outside of its proper place (marriage). There's a reason God made men and women (two sexes, not one)!

Maybe if an animal does it, it's not a sin. But when people knowingly choose to do it, it's wrong. Last time I checked, we all have free will, and are able to make choices.


God bless,

monica

 

[Dannager]

It seems that this whole discussion is revolving around the question: "is masturbation natural, or not?"

Well, let's examine the two sides of the argument:

Argument for 'natural':

1. Animals and infants do it. (Never heard of this, but I'll assume it's correct for now).
2. Therefore, it's not a learned behavior, but a natural one.
3. We don't call other natural behaviors sinful.
4. So masturbation is not sinful.

Arguments against 'natural':

1. BloodwashedPilgrim made a great point that natural doesn't always equal good. After all, our nature is fallen! Bad tree, bad fruit.

2. We are educated Christians, not animals or infants. They might not know it's wrong, but if we do, we should not do it. God expects a higher moral standard of us than of animals.

3. Adult humans have the ability to make choices. Many natural behaviors and functions 'just happen', we don't choose them. But people who touch choose to do so. This makes it either a different sort of natural behavior, or not a natural behavior at all.

You've also missed the point. Bringing up the "natural" argument was not to show that it is not sinful. It was to show that it is natural. Floatingaxe had called it unnatural, and I decided to challenge that. It's clearly natural.

You might argue that people don't actually choose to touch, but I would disagree. Whenever we are tempted to do something (anything!) there comes a moment when we choose to either give in, or resist, the temptation. It's still a choice. This sets it apart from other 'body functions'.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that they aren't making a choice when they touch.

So which choice is the right one?

Either one. Masturbating is fine. Not masturbating is fine (though perhaps not the healthiest thing you can do for yourself).

Everything that God made has a purpose.

A purpose? Hardly. Most things have multiple purposes. Our mouths, for instance, are for eating, breathing and talking! Heck, on a more topic-appropriate note, the male penis serves the dual-purpose of both urination and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

Sexual desire was created for marriage between a man and a woman - well that's what I believe.

Is your belief based on anything beyond how you were raised?

It's a 'natural' thing, and there's nothing wrong with it.

I agree. Nor is there anything wrong with masturbation.

So when we take something good and use it for something that it wasn't intended for, it usually becomes something bad.

Well then it becomes a matter of intent, doesn't it? I believe that God didn't intend for us to avoid masturbation. There's no reason for such an intent. It's healthy and normal, and doesn't harm anyone.

I would argue that when we take the sexual desire and put it outside of it's proper place, we are corrupting it.

I see no reason to consider masturbation to be sexual activity "outside of its proper place".

Do you see where I'm going with this?

I certainly see where you think you're going with this. But you have to demonstrate that masturbation is sinful. And you haven't done that yet. In fact, no one in this thread, or any thread I've ever seen on here has.

This is why I believe that masturbation is a sin. It's taking something 'natural' (sexual desire) and putting it outside of its proper place (marriage).

What reason do you have to assume that marriage is the only place that sexual activity can take place? Especially if it's masturbation?

There's a reason God made men and women (two sexes, not one)!

I imagine a lot of it had to do with the increased survivability of species that use genetic recombination for reproduction.

Maybe if an animal does it, it's not a sin. But when people knowingly choose to do it, it's wrong.

No, it's not.

 

[Jedi]

Everything that God made has a purpose. Sexual desire was created for marriage between a man and a woman - well that's what I believe. It's a 'natural' thing, and there's nothing wrong with it.
CS Lewis once said that badness is spoiled goodness. It's misused goodness.
So when we take something good and use it for something that it wasn't intended for, it usually becomes something bad.
I would argue that when we take the sexual desire and put it outside of it's proper place, we are corrupting it.

I agree with you for the most part, except where you venture off to say that anything used outside of its purpose is sinful. This is untrue. A book's purpose is to be read. Does this mean a man who temporarily uses a book as a paperweight has done wrong? Of course not. He has done something outside of the intended purpose of a book but not contrary to it so that its purpose is hindered.

Considering sexuality in the same light, for as long as our sexuality isn't used in such a way as to hinder its function (intimacy and/or procreation between husband and wife), how can we condemn it? It may be an additional use of our sexuality but not a use that hinders its purpose. In fact, masturbation enhances our sex drives, providing for a spicier sex life in marriage. It allows people to explore what they like and don't like so that their sex lives might be better. It could be said, then, that masturbation suppliments our sexuality's intended purpose by enhancing it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

"You've also missed the point. Bringing up the "natural" argument was not to show that it is not sinful. It was to show that it is natural. Floatingaxe had called it unnatural, and I decided to challenge that. It's clearly natural."

Ooh..sorry. I missed that.
Well, I would argue that the sexual desire is natural, but that masturbation is an unnatural corruption of it.

"Either one. Masturbating is fine. Not masturbating is fine (though perhaps not the healthiest thing you can do for yourself)."

What makes it fine? Don't say because it's natural haha

"A purpose? Hardly. Most things have multiple purposes. Our mouths, for instance, are for eating, breathing and talking! Heck, on a more topic-appropriate note, the male penis serves the dual-purpose of both urination and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]."

Fair enough, but that just proves sex, not masturbation.

"Is your belief based on anything beyond how you were raised?"

Well..I wasn't raised in a Christian home.. but "marriage" began with Adam and Eve, and that's in the Bible.

"Well then it becomes a matter of intent, doesn't it? I believe that God didn't intend for us to avoid masturbation. There's no reason for such an intent. It's healthy and normal, and doesn't harm anyone."

I don't know about it being healthy (it can become addictive, I guess, that's not very healthy..)...Normal? That's based on what the majority thinks, and we live in a fallen world. And..'doesn't harm anyone', well that doesn't mean it's not a sin!

"I see no reason to consider masturbation to be sexual activity "outside of its proper place".

What's the purpose of sexual activity?
I imagine it's to have children. And for intimacy between two people...two people, not one.

My question is, why do you believe it's not a sin? What makes it 'normal'?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree with you for the most part, except where you venture off to say that anything used outside of its purpose is sinful. This is untrue. A book's purpose is to be read. Does this mean a man who temporarily uses a book as a paperweight has done wrong? Of course not. He has done something outside of the intended purpose of a book but not contrary to it so that its purpose is hindered.

Considering sexuality in the same light, for as long as our sexuality isn't used in such a way as to hinder its function (intimacy and/or procreation between husband and wife), how can we condemn it? It may be an additional use of our sexuality but not a use that hinders its purpose. In fact, masturbation enhances our sex drives, providing for a spicier sex life in marriage. It allows people to explore what they like and don't like so that their sex lives might be better. It could be said, then, that masturbation suppliments our sexuality's intended purpose by enhancing it.

That's a pretty good argument, but if the person isn't married, it no longer serves this 'second purpose'. Then, it's just self gratification. There's a reason why sex is between two people; it seems that God would rather us love someone else, not just ourselves...

 

[Dannager]

Ooh..sorry. I missed that.
Well, I would argue that the sexual desire is natural, but that masturbation is an unnatural corruption of it.

Why? On what do you base such an argument?

What makes it fine? Don't say because it's natural haha

Haha, no, not only because of that. It's fine because it is healthy, harms no one, and has not been declared sinful. I've never once seen an argument for masturbation being sinful that didn't hinge on someone being raised a certain way, or having a faulty interpretation of scripture. Many times such a view is bolstered by the desire to appear righteous.

Fair enough, but that just proves sex, not masturbation.

No, I'm saying that just because you're only familiar with one purpose for something doesn't mean that other purposes do not exist, and does not mean that those other purposes are somehow wrong. The Bible says nothing on it, and I cannot imagine the God I love condemning something as harmless and healthy as masturbation. God has such bigger fish to fry.

Well..I wasn't raised in a Christian home.. but "marriage" began with Adam and Eve, and that's in the Bible.

I'm not saying that marriage is bad or anything. That would be silly. But prior to marriage there is nothing wrong with relieving and enjoying oneself. It does not ruin one's purity or anything like that. In fact, it's very helpful for learning what you respond to. There's nothing more disheartening than finally getting to the point where you're ready to share your virginity with someone and neither of you knowing what you need to enjoy yourselves.

I don't know about it being healthy (it can become addictive, I guess, that's not very healthy..)

All major professional medical and psychiatric organizations consider it healthy and normal. It relieves stress and sexual frustration and has even shown to be beneficial in dealing with certain forms of male cancer. As for it being addictive, anything can be addictive. Food can be addictive. Internet use can be addictive. People make the mistake of attributing non-chemical addiction to an activity rather than the person. An addiction-prone personality is usually to blame in cases like this, and you will often find that even if a certain activity is stopped, that person will simply move onto the next addiction. Addiction-prone personalities are something that can be treated.

...Normal? That's based on what the majority thinks, and we live in a fallen world.

Sure, we do, but I don't think that in this case it's a symptom of our fallen nature. I haven't seen any reason to believe that.

And..'doesn't harm anyone', well that doesn't mean it's not a sin!

No, you're right, but things that do harm others unduly are sins. I'm just ruling out all the conditions that could make it sinful. The big ones are: do you feel personally convicted by it? (I do not.) Is it shown to be sinful by a thoughtful, proper understanding of scriptural morality? (It is not.) Does it violate the ethic of reciprocity (the "Golden Rule")? (It doesn't.)

What's the purpose of sexual activity?

I consider it to have a number of purposes. Procreation, of course, is its primary biological purpose. Pleasure, however, is certainly also one of the purposes of sexual activity. And secondary purposes are not bad things unless they're actually bad. For instance, the primary purpose of the vocal cords is to facilitate speech. But we also use our vocal cords to sing, and singing is a wonderful gift.

I imagine it's to have children. And for intimacy between two people...two people, not one.

Both of those are purposes of sexual activity, but I disagree with "not one" part. I see no reason to believe that enjoying it by yourself is somehow immoral.

My question is, why do you believe it's not a sin?

I believe it is not a sin for the same reason I believe that using a computer is not a sin. It's not covered in the Bible or by anything we know of Christ's morality, and I do not feel personally convicted by it in any way. If you do feel personally convicted by it, it's probably a good idea to avoid it. But do try to ask yourself if that conviction comes from your own personal leanings against it or from God.

What makes it 'normal'?

It's something witnessed in nature, in young children and by all cultures. It is as normal as scratching an itch.

 

[Dannager]

That's a pretty good argument, but if the person isn't married, it no longer serves this 'second purpose'. Then, it's just self gratification. There's a reason why sex is between two people; it seems that God would rather us love someone else, not just ourselves...

I agree, sex is best when shared. But it cannot always be shared, and holding out for such sharing can be unhealthy.

 

[Jedi]

That's a pretty good argument, but if the person isn't married, it no longer serves this 'second purpose'. Then, it's just self gratification. There's a reason why sex is between two people; it seems that God would rather us love someone else, not just ourselves...

Granted, but simply because we do something we enjoy doesn't make that activity bad. Where are we told or for what reason is self-gratification condemned as sinful? Where are we taught "If it feels good, it must be bad?" We are never forbidden from doing things for ourselves simply because we enjoy them. The last time I went to a movie, I went to see what I wanted to see because I wanted to see it. However, this does not mean I am "only" a lover of myself. It just means that I do love myself so that I do what I enjoy. Isn't this what Christ was referring to when He said "Love your neighbor as yourself?" How can we love them as ourselves if we do not love ourselves (and consequently, do things we enjoy simply because we enjoy them)?

Masturbation doesn't become bad when we do it because we enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with doing something for the sheer enjoyment of the activity. Only when there are negative consequences does it become a problem.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That's about all you bring to the table isn't it? Make the inference that someone else is a lesser Christian than you. Like that's possible.

If you read into it that I said you were less than anyone, you are really good at reading what isn't there!

I suppose that is where some of you get facts! Thin air!

 

[Floatingaxe]

God lets people down all the time, but you console each other by saying it's "all part of God's plan". You don't need to defend God here. He's not under attack. Your beliefs are.

God never lets anyone down who is His own and who is continually being sanctified by his or her devoted and obedient walk with Him. It is a relationship! He talks with us and we talk with him. He hears and answers and we also.

I feel that God does need defending here, because you are misrepresenting Him. When you promote a sinful behaviour as good, you are revealing an erroneous belief. My beliefs, while under attack by you, are strong and secure in Jesus Christ. When people who call themselves Christians are so irritated by truth and come unglued as easily as you seem to be at truth, then my logical conclusion is that you need Jesus desperately.


People let Him down continually, by following after what they think is right and not what He thinks is right.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a path before each person that seems right, but it ends in death.

 

[Dmarketto22]

This discussion has gotten so far out of hand like many issues that Paul addresses in his letters. This issue is a picture perfect example of a DEBATABLE MATTER...the reason for this--a raging debate has occured. Please read this and hear it out. Since many have looked and have somewhat failed to find a particular verse that either "Ok's" masturbation or calls it sinful, this is a GRAY area. Paul gives us an excellent place to turn for answers...and its in Romans 14. Hear this out from a post i posted a few pages back yesterday.




The very fact that masturbation is even in question as to whether or not it is a sin goes all of the way back to Romans 14. This passage talks about debatable matters in the church.

Romans 14 begins with the issue of eating meat or being a vegetarian. It addresses that neither position is wrong..............BUT.........it says in verse 5 (ESV) "One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND." It then continues and addresses "clean" and "unclean" food and how no food is unclean now that the new covenant was in place. However verse 23 then concludes it with very convicting words. "BUT WHOEVER HAS DOUBTS IS CONDEMNED IF HE EATS, BECAUSE THE EATING IS NOT FROM FAITH. FOR WHATEVER DOES NOT PROCEED FROM FAITH IS SIN."

This passage is saying that if a person eats what HE THINKS is unclean food, it is sin for him...EVEN THOUGH ALL FOOD IS CLEAN. He is still sinning because his actions come from doubt and not faith.

In other words, If you're doubting about whether something, for instance masturbation, is sin or not and follow through with that action, IT IS SIN as is clearly stated in Romans 14.

Another good place to examine debatable matters is 1 Corinthians 8 where the exact same topic and resolution is addressed, except food sacrificed to idols is used as an example. It says that some believe that eating food sacrificed to idols is wrong while others don't. Paul shows that is is not sinful at all since there is only one God...however some still have doubt as to whether or not it is okay to eat. For those people who do it out of doubt--it is sin. 1 Corinthians 8:13 (ESV) says "Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." You may wonder, "why would it be bad if they ate meat?...there's nothing wrong with it!" Exactly....but they don't know that and are called by Paul the "weaker brother." But if they do it out of doubt....it is sin. That is why he tells us not to make our brothers stumble in matters such as this.

I HOPE THAT THIS HAS GIVEN SOME CLARITY TO THIS DEBATE.
MAY THE HOLY SPIRIT CONTINUE TO MOVE AND CONVICT.
IN CHRIST,
DMARKETTO

 

[Dannager]

God never lets anyone down who is His own and who is continually beiong sanctified by his or her devoted and obedient walk with Him.

So none of those devoted Christian cancer patients who pray continually for God to heal them of their disease and allow them to live a full life with their families who die during the prime of their life were let down? They weren't disappointed that they had to die so young? God gave them exactly what they wanted?

Sure, God never lets anyone down.

Still waiting for you to address my previous post.

 

[mooduck1]

I've said it before. All things are lawful but not all things are benefitial. And, some things are 'benefitial' to one group of people that are not benefitial to others. SOME men would find there sexual desires and urges impossible to control if they did not touch before they were married and, I believe would be at great risk to have that desire mutate into something perverse. Since masturbation it's self is NOT condemned anywhere in the Bible except in one case where someone was commanded by God to conceive children with his wife and Chose to do otherwise, I believe it is safe to say that if your choices are touch once and a while and release those urges so that you can go on and be healthier and more focused on God the rest of your day, then we cannot condemn it - for that person. If on the other hand, God has put on your heart that it is not 'natural' or 'healthy' for YOU then you should abstain, but do not put that burden of your fast on someone else!

When we discuss what is natural or unnatural, the thing that scares me is what we say to our kids who will reach a certain age where they are 'naturally' curious about their bodies etc, and do we really want to put the fear of God or the sense that their bodies are dirty into their minds. I think it's perfectly healthy for a young person to explore those feelings without shame, and harmful if we put shame on them for exploring themselves by themselves. Since it is not expressly forbidden, I have to assume there are circumstances where it would not be condemned.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So none of those devoted Christian cancer patients who pray continually for God to heal them of their disease and allow them to live a full life with their families who die during the prime of their life were let down? They weren't disappointed that they had to die so young? God gave them exactly what they wanted?

Sure, God never lets anyone down.

Still waiting for you to address my previous post.

God never lets anyone down. Why are you judging God? Who are you to criticize Him?