What do you make of...

[Bernergirl]

...Genesis 6:2 and 6:4? I was doing some study from my NLT youth study bible and came upon the phrase "sons of God." That confused me a tad as Christ is the only begotten Son according to the Nicene Creed. (Could "begotten" be the keyword here?) At first I had thought it was just a means of reference to human men, but the context of the NLT passage suggested otherwise in referring to the "human women" that the sons took as wives. I looked in my KJV and it didn't exactly clear things up for me... I looked at other versions on e-Sword and the God's Word translation says that the sons of God took "other human women" as wives, suggesting - according to that translation - that my original hypothesis was correct. The Contemporary English Version called them, rather than "sons of God," "supernatural beings" (suggesting angels in my mind). I'm thinking that "begotten" would be the keyword, but I can't find any dictionary definitions from the era of the inception of the Nicene Creed that would define just exactly what was meant.

I know the Nicene Creed is extra-Biblical, so you don't have to point that out. I'm just looking for thoughts, preferrably Scripturally based thoughts.

 

[Nazaroo]

The text is a racial slur. A certain faction of Israelites held that inter-racial marriage was forbidden. This is a doctrine regarding 'tribal purity' which quickly deteriorates into basic racism. Many of the words 'stranger' like "mamzer" refer to racial half-breeds or the progeny of 'forbidden' inter-racial marriages.

This way of thinking was done away with through the New Covenant open to all peoples and granting equal status to all, Israelite, Judean, 'Gentile', slave or free, male or female.

 

[pplmpeacock]

...Genesis 2:4 and 2:6? I was doing some study from my NLT youth study bible and came upon the phrase "sons of God." ....

Ok i was tring to find this passage and could see this phrase.

Although i did a search on the phrase and realized you my have ment Genisis 6:2 and 6:4. I could be wrong, so let me know.

[bible]Genesis 6:1-8

The Flood

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Footnotes:

1. Genesis 6:3 Or My spirit will not remain in
2. Genesis 6:3 Or corrupt

(Source: BibleGateway.com : NIV)
[/bible]

This particular passage is refering to the angels as 'sons of God'. Angels were allowed to marry (have union with / sex) the women on earth, many of which had children from angelic seed, starting the race of Nephilim or giants, which we do not see again until Numbers 13, when the Israllites decribe the people (decendants of Anak : see Numbers 13:33) who live in the promise land to Moses.
This is where the Legends of the 'gods' come from (greek mythology) like Hercules.

 

[Bernergirl]

Oops... sorry, I was tired when I posted that. Yes, I meant 6:2 & 6:4. I'll edit the post.

Thank you both for your information.

God bless!

 

[OObi]

The text is a racial slur. A certain faction of Israelites held that inter-racial marriage was forbidden. This is a doctrine regarding 'tribal purity' which quickly deteriorates into basic racism. Many of the words 'stranger' like "mamzer" refer to racial half-breeds or the progeny of 'forbidden' inter-racial marriages.

This way of thinking was done away with through the New Covenant open to all peoples and granting equal status to all, Israelite, Judean, 'Gentile', slave or free, male or female.

Where did you hear that????

 

[Cribstyl]

This month I've been studying the same passages of scriptures. (KJV)

In addition to what notable scholars and even other bible versions say.

Here are some strong opposing facts to fallen angels to consider

"SONS OF GOD" is difficult to figure out only if you delete Gen 5 chapter and put a one way sign on your bible. Actually if we moved the chapter 6 count then we can see a connection in the dialog.

The fact that Moses gives us the family tree from Adam to Noah is strong evidence to consider who are "sons of God" that Moses is speaking about in chapter 6.

If we are allowed to import bible text other than Moses account of creation, Luke's family tree tell us who are sons of God (notice from Noah to Adam)

Luk 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.
.........................................................................
fact..... the dialog of chapter 6 takes place back in the lifetimes given in chapter 5 that only mentions 100% human (MEN) line from Adam.

From chapter 5 everyone named from Adam to Noah lived 750 yrs, and we see that God's judgement is only on humanity (MEN)

First judgement limited especially the seed of Adam to 120yrs. Would that in have any effect of fallen angels?

Notice from the beginning in Gen 1 Moses has fast forwarded in teaching us human history and have not talked about the fallen angels their rebellion in heaven So far even satan is described by Moses as a beast called a serpent.



Before the flood, who would you consider "men of old" men of renown" ?

well...........I have a lot to add but dont want to say too much at once.

God bless you in your study of His word.

Crib

 

[pplmpeacock]

I am posting again, to show more proof, rather than just taking my word for 'sons of God' being reference to Angels, and not Man, i dove into the text, and original context via a hebrew strongs concordance and lexicon.

[bible]2 That the sons [anchor="H1121"]H1121[/anchor] of God [anchor="H430"]H430[/anchor]saw H7200 H8799 the daughters [anchor="H1323"]H1323[/anchor] of men [anchor="H120"]H120 [/anchor]that they H2007 were fair H2896; and they took H3947 H8799 them wives [anchor="H802"]H802 [/anchor]of all which they chose H977 H8804.
3 And GOD [anchor="H3068"]H3068 [/anchor]said H559 H8799, My spirit H7307 shall not always H5769 strive H1777 H8799 with man H120, for that he also H1571 is flesh H1320 H7683 H8800: yet his days H3117 shall be an hundred H3967 and twenty H6242 years H8141.
4 There were giants [anchor="H5303"]H5303 [/anchor]in the earth H776 in those days H3117; and also after H310 that H3651, when H834 the sons H1121 of God H430 came in H935 H8799 unto the daughters H1323 of men H120, and they bare H3205 H8804 children to them, the same H1992 became mighty men H1368 which were of old [anchor="H5769"]H5769, [/anchor]men H582 of renown [anchor="H8034"]H8034[/anchor].[/bible]

Sorry for the confussing numbers, these are all links to my strongs, the ones in bold are the ones we will be looking at. I will go in order as they appear in the text above.

[anchor="H1121"]H1121[/anchor] (sons) - Word: OA
Pronounc: bane
Use: Noun Masculine
1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un- righteous men] or sons of God [for angels] )
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

[anchor="H430"]H430 [/anchor](God) - Word: MIDL@
Pronounc: el-o-heem'
Use: Noun Masculine
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

[anchor="H1323"]H1323 [/anchor](daughters) - Word: ZA
Pronounc: bath
1) daughter
1a) daughter, girl, adopted daughter, daughter-in-law, sister, granddaughters, female child, cousin
1a1) as polite address
1a2) as designation of women of a particular place
2) young women, women
1a3) as personification
1a4) daughter-villages
1a5) description of character

[anchor="H120"]H120 [/anchor](men) - Word: MC@
Pronounc: aw-dawm'
Use: Noun Masculine
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley

[anchor="H802"]H802 [/anchor](wives) - Word: DY@
Pronounc: ish-shaw'
Use: Noun Feminine
1) woman, wife, female
1a) woman (opposite of man)
1b) wife (woman married to a man)
1c) female (of animals)
1d) each, every (pronoun)

[anchor="H3068"]H3068 [/anchor](GOD / LORD) - Word: DEDI
Pronounc: yeh-ho-vaw'
Use: Proper Name
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of ad-o-noy' - Lord-title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence

[anchor="H5303"]H5303 [/anchor](giants) - Word: LITP
Pronounc: nef-eel'
Use: Noun Masculine
1) giants, the Nephilim

[anchor="H5769"]H5769 [/anchor](old) - Word: MLER
Pronounc: o-lawm'
Use: Noun Masculine
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

[anchor="H8034"]H8034 [/anchor](renoun) - Word: MY
Pronounc: shame
Use: Noun Masculine
1) name
1a) name
1b) reputation, fame, glory
1c) the Name (as designation of God)
1d) memorial, monument


So, when you research the text, you can plainly see that this is in reffrence to Angels, as in the phrase 'sons of God' el-o-heem' is used as the word God, whereas any other time when GOD is refered to it is used yeh-ho-vaw' or ad-o-noy'

Iteresting fact - yeh-ho-vaw' is the pronuciation of each syllable of the word for the Name of GOD, as it was believed you could never say the name of GOD, or the Hebrew word YHWH. (which by the way, no one knows the true pronuciation for)

 

[Cribstyl]

I am posting again, to show more proof, rather than just taking my word for 'sons of God' being reference to Angels, and not Man, i dove into the text, and original context via a hebrew strongs concordance and lexicon.


So, when you research the text, you can plainly see that this is in reffrence to Angels, as in the phrase 'sons of God' el-o-heem' is used as the word God, whereas any other time when GOD is refered to it is used yeh-ho-vaw' or ad-o-noy'

Is that what you get from this information friend???
that presents more than one option

I agree that it applies to "sons of God" in the book of Job.


Where the chapters are devided in from Gen ch1 to ch2 you need to observe for example Gen 2: 1-3 is about the 7th day, but Chapter 1 is about the first 6 days......My point is that all seven days are one subject and Gen 2:4 begins a new topic. Some people see chapter seperation as topic seperation so we automaticly ignor other context.....that's is why it is so clear that chapter 5 and 6 are a continuing dialog.

Go along with everybody but you still dont know for sure, do you? Well pray about it.


God Bless



Nephilim
\Neph"i*lim\, n. pl. [Heb. n[e^]ph[=i]l[=i]m.] Giants. --Gen. vi. 4. Num. xiii. 33.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Nephilim
(Gen. 6:4; Num. 13:33, R.V.), giants, the Hebrew word left untranslated by the
Revisers, the name of one of the Canaanitish tribes. The Revisers have,
however, translated the Hebrew gibborim, in Gen. 6:4, "mighty men."

Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

The historical narratives of the Hebrews often involve individuals that are described as gibborim (the singular is gibbor). Loosely translated, the gibbor is a "man of might" or "hero," but the two concepts are worlds apart. The heroic represents in its most abstract form a dialectic concept, that is, a concept that contains contradictory ideas. On the one hand, the hero represents the greatest potential of a human being in one or more areas. But on the other hand, because the hero represents the greatest potential of human life, the hero also represents the limitations of human life. Achieving the best that a human can achieve paradoxically also defines a limit of achievement beyond which human beings can't go. So the heroic is most often used in cultural histories and stories not to represent so much a positive view of human capability, but mainly the tragic limitations of human life.

 

[pplmpeacock]

Is that what you get from this information friend???
that presents more than one option

Yes that is what i get out the text, consitering my hebrew strong concordance says "1f) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un- righteous men] or sons of God [for angels] )" It's right there, Yes, we are the children of God, but we are the sons of Adam.

I know what you are saying about chapter 5 being a precurser to chapter 6, but that is to show you that Noah's bloodline was still 'pure' (as pure as it could be), and he was able to trace his lineage back to Adam directly. Noah was a great man, the only man of his generation able to walk with God the way his fathers did before him.

As for the whole angels thing. not only does it translate to this in the bible (through the strongs concordance) but if you look in to any extra-biblical texts such as the book of enoch, jasher, or hebrew mythology for that matter, all of them say it was angels who dessended from heaven, to be with the women of men. (God allowed this the same way he allowed satan to disobey, and unfortuniatly for the angels who did this, it was also thier fall : hence why Nephilim [the race born from angelic seed] directly translates to fallen-ones : along with giants )

It definiatly presents more than one meaning, and im not saying others could not apply here, but then again the word 'flesh' can also traslate out to be "the male organ of generations (as a euphemism)".
So I guess you can take things however you want to, but my studies have lead me to believe, through biblical and extra-biblical studies, that this phase is a refernce to angels.

Im not trying to be a jerk here, im just very sure that this is true.

Look into it, if you're currious as to where you can find and research extra-biblical texts, or Biblical texts in thier original formats, i have sources and i would be glad to share them with anyone, PM me if you are interested.

thanks

 

[justified]

1. Don't ever define a Hebrew word based on a concordance. A concordance is not meant for doing lexical work.

2. sons of God does mean angels in early Judaism, but the equivocation at this point in history is debatable.

 

[AngCath]

As has been posted on already, the phrase "sons of God" does frequently refer to divine beings/angels and some do take that meaning in relation to the flood account. Anyone who's done a study on this knows that that is the interpretation taken by the author of I Enoch.
The second interpretation is simply that those loyal to God and those who've turned away were mixing together thereby polluting worship of YHWH and increasing sin among people.

Either one works (both have there flaws) but the early Christians seemed to believe the first interpretation (refer to I Enoch, Jude, II Peter).

 

[justified]

One passage that should have been mentioned in connection with all of this is Deuteronomy 32:8f. I urge someone to take a look and tell me what they think (hint: you may have to use the footnotes in your bible; 2nd hint: you need a bible written after the 60s).

 

[AngCath]

Deut. 32:8 hits on the ancient Hebrew notion that the nations were placed under the control of a pantheon of divine beings and Israel was under God Himself.
The phrasing of this verse varies greatly depending on the translation as justified mentioned.

 

[justified]

It's not the different translation that matters. It's the different manuscript traditions:

Masoretic Text: sons of Israel
Dead Sea Scrolls 1: Sons of El
Dead Sea Scrolls 2: Sons of the gods
LXX version 1: angels of God

 

[pplmpeacock]

1. Don't ever define a Hebrew word based on a concordance. A concordance is not meant for doing lexical work.

2. sons of God does mean angels in early Judaism, but the equivocation at this point in history is debatable.

Whats wrong with a concordance, it seemed to do okay, and what would you suggest?

i think you are correct in assuming this COULD be a logical fallacy, but if that is the case please show me text in which "sons of God" is used in refrence to human men, rather than the phrase "children of God".

If you agree that 'son of God' meas angels in early Judaism, what is the reason for your disagreement?

 

[pplmpeacock]

Deut. 32:8

KJV - 8. When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

NIV - 8. When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel. [a]Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) sons of God

New Amer. Standard - 8"(A)When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
When He separated the sons of man,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
(B)According to the number of the sons of Israel. Cross references:

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 : Acts 17:26
2. Deuteronomy 32:8 : Num 23:9; Deut 33:28

Amplified Bible - 8. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Israelites.

New Living Trans. - 8. When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of angelic beings.[a]
Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 As in Dead Sea Scrolls, which read of the sons of God, and Greek version, which reads of the angels of god; Masoretic Text reads of the sons of Israel.

English standard - 8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.[b] Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 Or territories
2. Deuteronomy 32:8 Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text Israel

Darby - 8. When the Most High assigned to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
(Source: BibleGateway.com)


Any others? Not sure i get your point, doesn't this reafirm the definition of angels for 'sons of God'? or are you saying that this verse should have been refrenced to help prove the definition?

 

[AngCath]

It's not the different translation that matters. It's the different manuscript traditions:

Masoretic Text: sons of Israel
Dead Sea Scrolls 1: Sons of El
Dead Sea Scrolls 2: Sons of the gods
LXX version 1: angels of God

Even Rabbinic commentary on the Masoretic Text shows that they believe it to be a reference to divine beings.

I too would like to see an example where the phrase "sons of God" refers to people if you could supply one.