what do you know about Islam?

[elwill]

That might be so in Arabic. But when translating into English, they choose what English word best conveys the sense of meaning of the original Arabic. And first person means "I" did this, or "I" say this, etc. And it's not about changing from your god saying "I" but "I Muhammed". So again you miss the mark. It is Muhammed speaking!

another little of ignorance about quran
when God speaks about himself in quran he says "we" not "I" .

 

[beamishboy]

elwill, my advise to you.Don't debate with montalban.Because he is a different kind of personality that creats his own facts, wants you to accept them as truth and debate based upon them for weeks and months ..it is simply impossible to talk to that mr.australian..

How can you say that? I'm shocked. I'm really surprised that I can never find any Muslim who can argue effectively some defence of their faith. I've been following Islamic threads and I always see a lot of antagonism when someone as knowledgeable as Montalban brings up argument after argument, each of which is valid and needs a rebuttal. Instead of coming up with a cogent rebuttal, all you do is to attack him personally.

As I have said before, I really know very little about Islam and Muslims. I'd like to know more. Where I'm from the perception of Islam and Muslims is usually on the negative side even when people are too polite to say it. Coupled with my encounter with a near-death experience when my Dad and I escaped death in the Bali bombing incident by Muslim terrorists, what I really want is a balanced argument by Muslims to the points raised by non-Muslims, particularly the knowledgeable ones like Montalban. But all I get is disappointment.

Naturally, I have this niggling thought whether the negative things I hear may have some truth in them. I still have nightmares of the Bali bombing from time to time. I can still see vividly a human head lying next to me, the head was dislodged from the body by the violence of the bomb blast.

I hope you guys can argue like adults. If you can't answer Montalban's points, you can either be silent or you can concede defeat. You should never attack him personally.

 

[elwill]

No. That's just you repeating yourself. The evidence says that Muhammed married a young girl, therefore Moslems can marry young.

i see a large gap here in this argument
are you talking about that we can or not
or talking about that we should or not?

you know what ? we can if it was legal in the soceity
but not God nor our prophet nor the companions nor the scientist of islam nowadays nor any muslims in the world talked about this issue as a mark of faith or as a mark for good muslims

I've dealt with this too. Even if it weren't 'taboo' at that time there's no (according to you) Chrisitan texts on the subject at all therefore there's nothing to say that it SHOULD be allowed to continue on forever either.

good point , it's the same in islam , there's no texts on the subject at all therefore there's nothing to say that it should be allowed to continue on forever either
(remember that we said to you , if it is illegal there is noproblem with muslims to accept it )

Montalban , are you should take Jesus (pbuh) as a good example for your life ?

 

[Montalban]

another little of ignorance about quran
when God speaks about himself in quran he says "we" not "I" .

You're kidding, right? I just said I wasn't talking about al-lah, but Muhammed. I even said "I Muhammed"*

Post after post after post you do your very own re-write of what I say. Why not give it a rest and deal with what I write?

*Here's some examples (which I've used previously)

The very beginning of the Koran states...

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.

6:114
"Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
These too, are the words of Muhammed.

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…
6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .
102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.
103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.
104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

The inclusion of (Muhammad) in brackets is given by the Moslem Koranic site quraan.com - so it is in THEIR interpretation that it is Muhammed speaking in first person.

I can't wait to see Anatolian or Islam_M state that this is an anti-Islamic site. I'd be very much interested to see what your own next re-write will be

 

[elwill]

The rise in the number of Muslims is misleading. This is because in many Muslim countries, a Muslim is NOT ALLOWED to leave the religion.

hi beamishboy , how are you
well , i think you are wrong with your conclusions
how manu muslim countries , the muslims not allowed to leave a relegion
when you find for me the answer we can keep going for discussing your view

beside why you not ask yourself other questions , as if it's unlogic or mystry or bad relegion , why there are much from nonmuslims in the west praise it?
why muslims in nonmuslims country (surely they are free) not apostates in a large numbers as christians does

In my discussion with Muslims in CF, I'm surprised to note that many Muslims are of the personal view that Muslims who become non-Muslims ought to be executed.

i agree with you
there are some muslims believes in that
it isn't common , not all muslims believe in that
it's doubtious issue between scholars of islam

For the record, I have never been a Muslim and never will. So, don't kill me.

it's wonderfull thoughts
from your point of view , my answer is if you wanna to become a muslim , you must think thousand of times before decide that , you must to be sure from the bottom of your heart , we didn't need you to be a muslim for any purpose other than the truth relegion

what do you think relegion stand on this point lisk this is ?
didn't you think that from this point of view , the relegion of islam is strong with its proofs and evidences

can't you imagine , second larger relegion in the world in quantity untill nowdays , killes the apostates of it ? why then all those people praised the islam ?

 

[peaceful soul]

Right..Is this why you use your circular logic like "Muhammed can't be a prophet because he wasn't a prophet"? because of the things what God wanted him to do and that Bible is full of ?

There is no circular logic in what I said.

Is this your attempt to divert the topic like so many Muslims do on a regular basis? My reply had to do with recognizing that some of Mohammad's actions were immoral in the AD 600s if they are classified today as immoral. Muslims argue moral relativism when they try to cover up Mohammad's faults. They always have a reason such as "He and the Ummah were provoked" by non Muslims to behave as they did or some other fault of non Muslims. But, the greatest one is when Mohammad claims that Allah commanded him to do something. Mohammad never claimed to have spoken to Allah.

Islamic history never puts the blame on Mohammad or other Muslims. It is unrealistic to believe that non Muslims are the wrongdoers in all cases. This is part of the problem with Muslims. I can't take your religion seriously if you are not willing to see that your prophet was not the best example of all times or even for his life time. There are other people both present and past that have had higher moral and ethical standards than your prophet. Since you and most of your other Muslims (co-religionists) are so blind to this, you cannot make a subjective statement on the issue.

 

[Montalban]

i agree with you
there are some muslims believes in that
it isn't common , not all muslims believe in that
it's doubtious issue between scholars of islam

I thought it was in the Koran.

Hey what do you think of this guy (newspaper link)

 

[Montalban]

There is no circular logic in what I said.

Is this your attempt to divert the topic like so many Muslims do on a regular basis? My reply had to do with recognizing that some of Mohammad's actions were immoral in the AD 600s if they are classified today as immoral. Muslims argue moral relativism when they try to cover up Mohammad's faults. They always have a reason such as "He and the Ummah were provoked" by non Muslims to behave as they did or some other fault of non Muslims. But, the greatest one is when Mohammad claims that Allah commanded him to do something. Mohammad never claimed to have spoken to Allah.

Islamic history never puts the blame on Mohammad or other Muslims. It is unrealistic to believe that non Muslims are the wrongdoers in all cases. This is part of the problem with Muslims. I can't take your religion seriously if you are not willing to see that your prophet was not the best example of all times or even for his life time. There are other people both present and past that have had higher moral and ethical standards than your prophet. Since you and most of your other Muslims (co-religionists) are so blind to this, you cannot make a subjective statement on the issue.

Moslems start with the premise that their faith is genuine. They believe that their god chose a great man to reveal his will to the world. Given that they believe this, every evil that Muhammed did, will be justified according to them.

Everything from his sexual assault on a child, to his support for mass-murder.

 

[Montalban]

can't you imagine , second larger relegion in the world in quantity untill nowdays , killes the apostates of it ? why then all those people praised the islam ?

What do you mean?

Islam increases for many reasons. One being size of families. In Australia many Moslems have larger families. Other reasons being that to criticise Islam - so as to give people both sides of the story leads to either legal action or threats of or actual violence. Islam is about stiffling debate.

Even here where we're free of violence the ammount of times Moslems (including yourself) divert discussion away from Islam is truly astounding.

Then on top of that you've got a lot of Christian-haters here who try to shout down Christians engaging in discussion with Moslems.

I note that one Baha'i woman who continually avoided my evidence on Hadith on this thread has STILL not addressed it.

 

[peaceful soul]

What do you mean?

Islam increases for many reasons. One being size of families. In Australia many Moslems have larger families. Other reasons being that to criticise Islam - so as to give people both sides of the story leads to either legal action or threats of or actual violence. Islam is about stiffling debate.

Even here where we're free of violence the ammount of times Moslems (including yourself) divert discussion away from Islam is truly astounding.

Then on top of that you've got a lot of Christian-haters here who try to shout down Christians engaging in discussion with Moslems.

I note that one Baha'i woman who continually avoided my evidence on Hadith on this thread has STILL not addressed it.

So true, Montalban.

 

[Montalban]

So true, Montalban.

A few years ago here in Australia a Christian group "Catch the Fire Ministries" had a 'talk' for interested people to learn about Islam.

Moslems sent recent converts (who looked "Australian") along to the meeting. They had also the backing of a state government anti-discrimination person who was also on an Islamic board. They listened to the talk and then put in a formal complaint that they'd be racially villified.

It went to court. Initially the Christians lost, but appealed to a higher court and won.

The fact people in government would choose a side and set up the Christians with spies at the meeting was disgraceful. I'm not saying it was the government, this article has something of the matter.

Islam needs that sort of environment in order to thrive. It needs to bully people - threatening them with violence as 'enemies' of Islam

As noted you can raise the issue of Aisha and the immediate (one might even say knee-jerk) reaction is to labour with a tu quoque -either by retelling an event from the OT or trying to bring up the age of Mary.

 

[elwill]

elwill, my advise to you.Don't debate with montalban.Because he is a different kind of personality that creats his own facts, wants you to accept them as truth and debate based upon them for weeks and months ..it is simply impossible to talk to that mr.australian..

thank you anatolian , i noticed that allready
i just want to know where will we arrive in this discussion .
he not seek the knowledge of islam from view of muslims .
he just make his own conclusions and trying to convince us that we have the same conclusions of his own

 

[elwill]

How can you say that? I'm shocked. I'm really surprised that I can never find any Muslim who can argue effectively some defence of their faith. I've been following Islamic threads and I always see a lot of antagonism when someone as knowledgeable as Montalban brings up argument after argument, each of which is valid and needs a rebuttal. Instead of coming up with a cogent rebuttal, all you do is to attack him personally.

are you read the thread , every post of it , before attaking him ?

As I have said before, I really know very little about Islam and Muslims. I'd like to know more. Where I'm from the perception of Islam and Muslims is usually on the negative side even when people are too polite to say it.

you are wellcome to discuss anything , even if by PM , you are wellcome , anytime

I hope you guys can argue like adults. If you can't answer Montalban's points, you can either be silent or you can concede defeat. You should never attack him personally.

well , i need for you to read the thread , and if there are any questions we didn't reply , please make yourself free to ask us again , and be sure that you will find our response

peace

 

[elwill]

I thought it was in the Koran.

Hey what do you think of this guy (newspaper link)

i challenge you to give me one verse from quran


about your link , well , they not represent all muslims
i said before there are some think that , others dosn't

 

[beamishboy]

A few years ago here in Australia a Christian group "Catch the Fire Ministries" had a 'talk' for interested people to learn about Islam.

Moslems sent recent converts (who looked "Australian") along to the meeting. They had also the backing of a state government anti-discrimination person who was also on an Islamic board. They listened to the talk and then put in a formal complaint that they'd be racially villified.

It went to court. Initially the Christians lost, but appealed to a higher court and won.

The fact people in government would choose a side and set up the Christians with spies at the meeting was disgraceful. I'm not saying it was the government, this article has something of the matter.

Islam needs that sort of environment in order to thrive. It needs to bully people - threatening them with violence as 'enemies' of Islam

As noted you can raise the issue of Aisha and the immediate (one might even say knee-jerk) reaction is to labour with a tu quoque -either by retelling an event from the OT or trying to bring up the age of Mary.

Wow, you make a lot of sense. And there is so much I can learn from what you've posted.

It's true that every time, I hear Muslims getting angry, I get nightmares of the Bali bombing. My parents would turn off the tv whenever there is a Muslim related act of violence (and there are so many of them), the most recent is the bomb blast at the Belgian embassy in Pakistan. They turn off the tv because I get nightmares.

What really haunts me is the picture of the head I saw near me after the blast. The force of the blast caused me to fall on the road. It was merely the wind caused by the explosion and already it was so strong that I fell!!! When my Dad helped me up and checked to see that I was not hit by shrapnels, I saw, to my horror, a head near me. It must have flown out of Raja Restaurant where the explosion happened.

I know there are nice and moderate Muslims who oppose the terrorist acts and violent carnage of humans. I know some Muslims at school but these are different. They're very westernised and they're royalty in their own countries and they even drink alcohol illegally. So they aren't fanatics and they totally oppose acts of terrorism.

But I will need years of counselling before I can erase the association of the Bali bombing with Islam generally. I find it impossible to imagine that Islam can even remotely be a true religion. Elwill talks about evidence. I have never seen a single shred of evidence to recommend Islam as a true religion. The only evidence I see around me on the news all the time and that incident in which I was directly involved and which has traumatised me very badly all point to Islam as the total opposite of what I would consider a viable religion (and I'm not even talking about the higher test of a true religion).

 

[elwill]

You're kidding, right? I just said I wasn't talking about al-lah, but Muhammed. I even said "I Muhammed"*

Post after post after post you do your very own re-write of what I say. Why not give it a rest and deal with what I write?

*Here's some examples (which I've used previously)

The very beginning of the Koran states...

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.

is it because we pray to allah and thank him in these verses ?
allah teach us how to worship him

6:114
"Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
These too, are the words of Muhammed.

really , again incomplete verse , to proof your point
the complete verse in its entire words , allah say
6-11 Say (O Muhammad to them): "Travel in the land and see what was the end of those who rejected truth."
6-12-Say(o Mohammed to them): To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say(o Mohammed): To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
6-13 And to Him belongs whatever dwells in the night and the day; and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
6-14 Say(o Mohammed to them): Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.

so , you erased the first word "say" to proof your point , shame on you

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…

6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .
102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.
103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.

104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

all the verses above refer to God , just the last one is refer to mohammed (pbuh)
your misunderstanding caused of your ignorance about arabic language

The inclusion of (Muhammad) in brackets is given by the Moslem Koranic site quraan.com - so it is in THEIR interpretation that it is Muhammed speaking in first person.

i know that this one is from muslim site , so go ahead and see what muslims think about these verses from islamic sites also

quran is very different from any other book , when you read it , you find it like a movie , if you have knowledge about arabic language you will not need these bracketes to determine whom he and whom we and whom I
that is why you must ask arabs about what verses mean

 

[elwill]

The only evidence I see around me on the news all the time and that incident in which I was directly involved and which has traumatised me very badly all point to Islam as the total opposite of what I would consider a viable religion (and I'm not even talking about the higher test of a true religion).

okey you can make your conclusions from anti_islamic news , and you can make it from asking the muslims themselfs
you are free to depend on whatever you want , but anyway you are wellcome if you need anything from me

hope for you the best

peace

 

[um hamza]

You're kidding, right? I just said I wasn't talking about al-lah, but Muhammed. I even said "I Muhammed"*

Post after post after post you do your very own re-write of what I say. Why not give it a rest and deal with what I write?

*Here's some examples (which I've used previously)

The very beginning of the Koran states...

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.
how do you know what is your prove
6:114
"Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
These too, are the words of Muhammed.
I have 2 versions of quran in English and in those 2 before this verse there is say > again you didn't say the whole verse
114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…
6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .
102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.
103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.
104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.
the meaning tell them it's familiar in arabic and you should first read the explaning the tafseer before you take verses as a prove
The inclusion of (Muhammad) in brackets is given by the Moslem Koranic site quraan.com - so it is in THEIR interpretation that it is Muhammed speaking in first person.

I can't wait to see Anatolian or Islam_M state that this is an anti-Islamic site. I'd be very much interested to see what your own next re-write will be

listen to me i can see that you for about 200 posts argue with my fellow muslims about prophet Muhamed peace be upon him and his marriage from Aisha and I myself told you before it's ok in arab lands even in about 100 year ago it's ok for a 12 or 13 girl to get married but you didn't stop you us to say yes it was wrong what happened
but if we look at western countries theses days we find that in 1994 there was about 12,900 case of delivery from girls between 10 to 14 search for it in google and you will be astonshed
it western countries it's ok to have sex in 10 11 12 years old but in Islam it's a crime to get married from a 9 years old girl from 1400 years ago ????? i wonder

 

[Secundulus]

it western countries it's ok to have sex in 10 11 12 years old but in Islam it's a crime to get married from a 9 years old girl from 1400 years ago ????? i wonder

Do you really believe that? It is a crime for an adult to have sex with children. People go to jail for that.

 

[beamishboy]

okey you can make your conclusions from anti_islamic news , and you can make it from asking the muslims themselfs
you are free to depend on whatever you want , but anyway you are wellcome if you need anything from me

hope for you the best

peace

Hi elwill,

You are very kind.

The therapy and counselling that I've been going for is designed to help me forget the Bali bombing incident. But it's not easy. Any time there is news of another bombing (like the Belgian embassy bombing in Pakistan), I get nightmares again. My nightmares always begin with my Dad and I walking out of Raja Restaurant. That's followed by a VERY loud explosion. The nightmare is very vivid. I feel myself thrown off my feet to the road. I feel actual pain on my chin when I hit the road. I feel pain on the palm of my hands where I had cuts from the abrasion on the road. I can hear my Dad calling out to me hysterically. (He thought I had died from the blast at first). Then I can feel him picking me up and running his hand behind my head and back, to ensure that there are no shrapnels. The Muslim terrorists put in a lot of ball bearings and nails to ensure maximum injury and death to civilians in the restaurant. And then I see the head next to me. That will usually wake me up, screaming.

During the early months when I was undergoing counselling, I was asked by the psychologist what I would wish to see eradicated. I told him I wished there was no Islam. Then there wouldn't be all this killing. He told my Dad that the only thing the terrorists succeeded in doing is to distance people from Islam. He said people like me would never be able to think well of Islam, far less, to convert to the religion. It's been almost three years since the Bali bombing and although I only suffered scratches that have long healed, I cannot hear the Muslim call to prayer without the urge to run away from a danger source. Before the Bali bombing, I went to Istanbul with my parents and I visited the Blue Mosque which is beautiful. Today, I would never visit Turkey or enter a mosque and it's not a conscious thing but I find myself physically unable to do so. I keep telling myself that not all Muslims approve of the Bali bombing and there are many nice muslims like elwill who are non-violent but I just have a terrible phobia that I can't get over. The psychologist thinks we should not push it but he also says that some people just can't get over this phobia.

On the first anniversary of the 7th July London Underground bombing, I was invited to sing in the Memorial Service. They got me because I was a "survivor of Islamic terrorists". At that time, my voice had not yet become unstable like it is now and I sang "I Vow to Thee My Country", our most famous patriotic song and I'm sure I gave Katherine Jenkins a run for her money. Hehe.

I know it's wrong to read negative reports about Muslim terrorists but how positive can reports be after the London Underground bombing followed by the Bali bombing (and that was the second Bali bombing)? How can the reporters sweeten events like these?

If the world thinks badly of Islam generally, moderate Muslims should really get angry with the Muslim terrorists and extremists. You can't blame the rest of the world. Some of us need therapy for years before we can even hear a Muslim prayer without feeling the urge to run away and take cover.