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What do you call this dispensation?

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timlamb

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Do you call it The Church age or the age of Grace, or both. I am not sure about defining this as the age of grace as all are saved through grace from the beginning.

One more question. In this age, are we chosen of God, or do we choose Him? I have heard some good scripture and arguements both ways. Personally, I think free will is so important to having a heart for God that I have trouble with any predestination ideas.

Lets get some good dispensational discussion going and make this thread honest again.:clap:
 

s0journ3r

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Do you call it The Church age or the age of Grace, or both. I am not sure about defining this as the age of grace as all are saved through grace from the beginning.

One more question. In this age, are we chosen of God, or do we choose Him? I have heard some good scripture and arguements both ways. Personally, I think free will is so important to having a heart for God that I have trouble with any predestination ideas.

Lets get some good dispensational discussion going and make this thread honest again.:clap:

I would really like to understand dispensationalism a lot better than I do. I know there's different kinds. Who here is a dispensationalist and what kind are you? What caused you to adopt your version of dispensationalism?

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Do you call it The Church age or the age of Grace, or both. I am not sure about defining this as the age of grace as all are saved through grace from the beginning.

The present dispensation can be called either the church age or the age of grace. Most dispensationalists call it the dispensation of grace. The name is not that important, what matters more is recognizing the beginning (Acts 2) and end of the present dispensation.

Dispensationalists believe salvation has always been by grace through faith. Grace has always been present in God's relationship with mankind, from Adam onward. So the dispensations are not different ways of salvation.

The present dispensation is called "grace" not because of the absence of grace in previous dispensations, but because more has been revealed. The Messiah is now known and a new body created, the church, with both Jews and Gentiles as co-heirs.

One more question. In this age, are we chosen of God, or do we choose Him? I have heard some good scripture and arguements both ways. Personally, I think free will is so important to having a heart for God that I have trouble with any predestination ideas.

The question regarding free will/predestination (or Calvinism/Arminianism) is "outside" dispensationalism - that is, dispensationalists take a variety of views. There are Calvinist dispensationalists and Arminian dispensationalists, and those who choose to take neither side.

IMO both are true. God has chosen us and we have chosen him.

Lets get some good dispensational discussion going and make this thread honest again.:clap:

I'm more than happy to engage in a straightforward and honest discussion.


LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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I would really like to understand dispensationalism a lot better than I do. I know there's different kinds. Who here is a dispensationalist and what kind are you? What caused you to adopt your version of dispensationalism?

I'm a dispensationalist, a progressive dispensationalist to be more exact.

Dispensationalism can be sliced many different ways. Theologically, there are the mainstream dispensationalists, which consist of traditional and progressive varieties. There are two additional minority groups, classical dispensationalists and what is referred to as ultradispensationalists. Ultras include the variety of Mid-Acts views (9-13) and the rare Acts 28 view. The mainstream and ultra camps rarely have anything to do with one another: each has separate churches, schools, etc.

I have been a dispensationalist since the mid-1970s. I was a traditional dispensationalist until 1992. That year, while I was in seminary, I listened to Bock and Blaising explain the progressive dispensationalist view. I've been a progressive dispensationalist ever since.


LDG
 
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timlamb

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I would really like to understand dispensationalism a lot better than I do. I know there's different kinds. Who here is a dispensationalist and what kind are you? What caused you to adopt your version of dispensationalism?

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner
I had the privilage of hearing Pastor Paul Van Noy lecture on his modle of the dispensations. Since I was mostly ignorant of the idea I can't say I learned much. But what I've seen leads me to the conclussion dispensationalism is good for teaching, biblical context, and viewing the progression of the relationship between man and God, but it should in no way be involved in personal beliefs or tied to faith. Inside or outside of dispensations "Mere" Christianity remains the same.
 
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timlamb

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The present dispensation can be called either the church age or the age of grace. Most dispensationalists call it the dispensation of grace. The name is not that important, what matters more is recognizing the beginning (Acts 2) and end of the present dispensation.

Dispensationalists believe salvation has always been by grace through faith. Grace has always been present in God's relationship with mankind, from Adam onward. So the dispensations are not different ways of salvation.

The present dispensation is called "grace" not because of the absence of grace in previous dispensations, but because more has been revealed. The Messiah is now known and a new body created, the church, with both Jews and Gentiles as co-heirs.



The question regarding free will/predestination (or Calvinism/Arminianism) is "outside" dispensationalism - that is, dispensationalists take a variety of views. There are Calvinist dispensationalists and Arminian dispensationalists, and those who choose to take neither side.

IMO both are true. God has chosen us and we have chosen him.



I'm more than happy to engage in a straightforward and honest discussion.


LDG
Would you call this a good allegory?
The Bridegroom has proposed, the feast is being prepared. The Bride need only accept and then prepare for the celibration.

Not origional I know. Just restated to emphasize the asking and accepting of the union.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I would really like to understand dispensationalism a lot better than I do. I know there's different kinds. Who here is a dispensationalist and what kind are you? What caused you to adopt your version of dispensationalism?

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner
I don't know what I am in the class of, as I just got saved by a miracle when my sis [Southern Baptist preacher's wife] interceded in intercessory prayer for my soul and the LORD answerd her prayer of travail and gave me New Birth in Him -though we did not converse on the matter and she lived 2500 miles from me -and no one had internet or cheap telephones to freely talk, or to often talk together; we poor folk communicated by letters back then, sent by US Postal services.

Then I took up the Book immediately, and began to learn of Him, reading Luke, first- and I think the whole New Testament the first month or so -it seems like, anyway. I expected that was what all Believers did do, as sis had long before given me a Bible [before I moved away from where she was] with almost the complete book of Hebrews underlined, and had asked me to read it, and made sure I heard from her lips that we are to follow the Word of God over the word of men, when we come to Him -she stressed that to me because I had married a nominal Christian in a traditional Church and had considered joining for family "unity" -though neither my husband nor I were born again nor did we obey the least things in the Word that Jesus told us to do.
He did attend the weekly 'time of Church service' and yet had no heart for Jesus except to take His name in vain -but he prayed "prayers" -not with his heart. We were just two lost sinners, but he was made a wet sinner in his youth, before his heart was converted.


I did have a fundamentalist Baptist Background as a child, or youth. However, the preacher of the Rescue Mission we attended was "filled with the Holy Ghost" -as they said back then- and spoke in tongues! -but the Fundamentalist Baptist Church denomination he pastored doesn't believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today! which I was not aware of when I was a child -nor aware of when the LORD saved me, many years later, so I expected to receive the same as I read about in the Word, and the former pastor of my childhood did also receive which I had heard -without knowing there was controversy on the matter.

And then, His preaching on the soon return of Jesus Christ and the need to be born again was absolutely anointed by the Holy Spirit to my heart -and I did believe -and I "got saved" almost every Sunday, all over again! but no one told me how to live it between times, though our family was 'Church going" in the Bible belt 'south'.

I fell away as a teen -long after mom had stopped taking us to that church, after dad was committed to the VA hospital as 'shell shocked' from WW2, and she returned to the "Pentecostal" denomination of her own youth, which was so dead after that preacher who was so alive, in the first Church, that I got bored and drifted away -all the way down...down...down,
....
When the LORD saved my sis and called her hubby to preach after he also was saved, she had no idea of my own background with the LORD, for that happened after she married, but began when I was about 8 years old [when mom had started that first Church because a friend at work had asked her to go -and we all went, even dad], and that happened long before sis was 'saved' -and no one spoke of those things together.

The LORD placed me in a specific local Chruch at that time by divine guidance -but He had already taught me [long story] before I had walked away from Him that Jesus is the Only Way [in answer to specific prayer to Him about it] -not a denomination.

My favorite preacher of the last century was Dr Martyn Lloyd -Jones, an anointed preacher who also believed as I did on the Spirit and who did not believe in demonstrations as the way, but in living a life unto Him.
He also happened to be Reformed, and I am not and do not believe the Reformed doctrine, but the man preached only Jesus Christ and Him crucified and not 'Calvin", ever, under the anointing of the Spirit, to preach.
What I believe, I believe -not just- because I have always been in the Word since the LORD saved me, but because He has opened my understanding about the Message of the redemption in Christ, and even more in these last years as my family has all grown and gone and I have the time to really dig with delight for the treasures in the Word.

I believe the Oracles committed to the Jews are indeed the schoolmaster, a Tutor, to instruct the Manner or Way of God's One plan for all men to be made sons of God in the New Man -as we were in Adam and lost in his fall; and I believe the rapture is the first gathering of the first harvest of sons of God, in Christ, to be taken to heaven with Him, in regenerated bodies [the dead and the living, regenerated in bodies], off earth, before the time of the great tribulation, which is when the wrath of God will be poured out on the whole world -and the nation of Israel, below, will be brought as a whole into the New covenant and made sons of God in the New Covenant; which they, as a namesake nation, were to be from the beginning, but refused to be when the "Feast was prepared" and all things ready [Matthew 22].

There will then be a second harvest of sons of God after the thousand years are ended, and then the end, when the heavens and the earth will be regenerated and there will be no more seed of Adam on earth in the regeneration, but those who are regenerated in the New Man's Living Spirit and New Man's bodily image -and no more temple, for God and the Lamb are the temple of it, and the New Jerusalem is the City represented in the Holy of Holies in the pattern given to Israel, as the Oracle, itself, built foursquare.
Heaven will come down to earth and there will be joy forevermore.
I believe all these things are taught in the Oracles, in the law and in the prophets, and that Moses received the pattern of heavenly truth to instruct us [the entire world] about what was to be, and is, and is to be.

And I do not believe that anyone is saved by doctrine, but by Jesus Christ, only; and I do not believe that these things are salvation issues, that is, the pre-trib rapture of the Church and the gifts of the Spirit to the Church.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Would you call this a good allegory?
The Bridegroom has proposed, the feast is being prepared. The Bride need only accept and then prepare for the celibration.

Not origional I know. Just restated to emphasize the asking and accepting of the union.
Yes.
Old man New Man: the "ishyah" is "being prepared" by being called out of the world and into the New Man.
 
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8TarHeel8

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Do you call it The Church age or the age of Grace, or both. I am not sure about defining this as the age of grace as all are saved through grace from the beginning.

One more question. In this age, are we chosen of God, or do we choose Him? I have heard some good scripture and arguements both ways. Personally, I think free will is so important to having a heart for God that I have trouble with any predestination ideas.

Lets get some good dispensational discussion going and make this thread honest again.:clap:

timlamb,

The correct wording is simply found in the Bible itself:

if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NKJV))

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NIV))

if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NASB))

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines the greek word as follows:


Dispensation

oikonomia primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Luke+16:2-4">Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it​
(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?1+Cor+9:17">1_Cor_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");​
(b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Col+1:25">Col_1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"​
(c) in <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Eph+1:10">Eph_1:10; Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1_Tim_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of 1(a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of 1(c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.​
Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
See also : <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/greek.pl?term=oikonomia&topic=0766">oikonomia in other topics​
According to the definition above, a dispensation is not an age but simply the management of a household. It's not unlike the management of a business. Obviously a business has a beginning in time and an ending as well but it would be innacurate to refer to a business as an "age" of anything. That would be similar to refering to the NFL as the "age of the National Football League" as opposed to simply "the National Football League" (I'm into the fall sports season. Can you tell?)​
Conclusion: the correct way of saying it would simply be "the Dispensation of God's grace" with the words stewardship and administration being interchangable with the word "dispensation".​
 
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jeffweeder

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This is the dispensation whereby God can build and fill his house.
God walked with Adam ,in the garden, until sin reared its ugly head, then access was denied.- Spiritual death.:sick:

Jesus, the promise, has redeemed us through his blood, and has opened the doors of heaven, and offers the Spirit back, to all who will believe and recieve it.:clap:

First Adam was a living soul
Jesus, a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT.

All who do not have the Spirit of God in them, are none of his, and the flaming sword cherub still stands in your way

Would you hide behind a tree, if you heard him coming, even now?:confused:

I wondered upon waking up, knowing i was in the garden, then hearing those footsteps of God coming toward you. I saw myself tiptoeing through the tulips, heading for the nearest cave. :D

Then after some prompting, i saw myself running into his open arms, him wiping away my tears.:hug:
 
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timlamb

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timlamb,

The correct wording is simply found in the Bible itself:

if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NKJV))

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NIV))

if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you (Eph 3:2 (NASB))

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines the greek word as follows:


Dispensation

oikonomia primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Luke+16:2-4">Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it​
(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?1+Cor+9:17">1_Cor_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");​
(b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Col+1:25">Col_1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"​
(c) in <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Eph+1:10">Eph_1:10; Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1_Tim_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of 1(a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of 1(c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.​
Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
See also : <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/greek.pl?term=oikonomia&topic=0766">oikonomia in other topics​
According to the definition above, a dispensation is not an age but simply the management of a household. It's not unlike the management of a business. Obviously a business has a beginning in time and an ending as well but it would be innacurate to refer to a business as an "age" of anything. That would be similar to refering to the NFL as the "age of the National Football League" as opposed to simply "the National Football League" (I'm into the fall sports season. Can you tell?)​
Conclusion: the correct way of saying it would simply be "the Dispensation of God's grace" with the words stewardship and administration being interchangable with the word "dispensation".​
Not that I want to argue, but just for the sake of arguement, ask any elderly person about passing ages. The age of the mom & pop grocery made way for the age of the super walmart.

Grace has been available all through the old testement, so did the Death and resurrection change the way Grace was dispenced, or just complete the process of salvation planned from the start. (Not making lite, just organising thoughts). I guess what I am asking, is, is grace the change in Man-God relations in this age, or is it the Church, the Body of Christ? The story of Grace isn't about today it is about the attonement, but in the process it opened the knowledge of the love of God to all generations since. But the Church began with Peter and opened the Christian age that changes the world still today.

I hope this explains my question. Christs sacrifice difines the Christian faith, but the church I think defines today.

Please, no arguements over this, Grace is the all important thing, but is that an event or an age? Not a vital question, just wondering about opinions. Keep it simple please!
 
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timlamb

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This is the dispensation whereby God can build and fill his house.
God walked with Adam ,in the garden, until sin reared its ugly head, then access was denied.- Spiritual death.:sick:

Jesus, the promise, has redeemed us through his blood, and has opened the doors of heaven, and offers the Spirit back, to all who will believe and recieve it.:clap:

First Adam was a living soul
Jesus, a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT.

All who do not have the Spirit of God in them, are none of his, and the flaming sword cherub still stands in your way

Would you hide behind a tree, if you heard him coming, even now?:confused:

I wondered upon waking up, knowing i was in the garden, then hearing those footsteps of God coming toward you. I saw myself tiptoeing through the tulips, heading for the nearest cave. :D

Then after some prompting, i saw myself running into his open arms, him wiping away my tears.:hug:
Always enjoy your commentary JeffW. That is the word in a nutshell.
 
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jeffweeder

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This forum really demands that you search the word hard. This place is a great motivation for study, although my Family is getting sick of take away food( i'm the cook), as ive been at it all day-again. Weird how you switch on and off,-i sat here yesterday and couldnt string two words together, but today was better---
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Not that I want to argue, but just for the sake of arguement, ask any elderly person about passing ages. The age of the mom & pop grocery made way for the age of the super walmart.

Grace has been available all through the old testement, so did the Death and resurrection change the way Grace was dispenced, or just complete the process of salvation planned from the start. (Not making lite, just organising thoughts). I guess what I am asking, is, is grace the change in Man-God relations in this age, or is it the Church, the Body of Christ? The story of Grace isn't about today it is about the attonement, but in the process it opened the knowledge of the love of God to all generations since. But the Church began with Peter and opened the Christian age that changes the world still today.

I hope this explains my question. Christs sacrifice difines the Christian faith, but the church I think defines today.

Please, no arguements over this, Grace is the all important thing, but is that an event or an age? Not a vital question, just wondering about opinions. Keep it simple please!
:idea:
okay -I think I know what I am and how to describe it, :)-I'm a "last days" Believer!

The biblical word for the times we live in are "the last days".
The "last days" began when the promised Messiah became human flesh.
Then, after these last days, there will be a 'last day'.
Then, after the Last Day, there will be an end of this present creation and a New First Day, which is the New Beginning of this entire creation which will last forever and forever.

I've believed this for some time, and I have spoken of it, but hadn't thought of it in relation to your question.
The earth has one "week" of seven thousand years and the last is a Sabbath Thousand, when Messiah will reign in Peace and man will be truly blessed.
Job spoke of the "last" day when his Redeemer -God- would stand on the earth and he, Job, would see Him with His own eyes -after his flesh and skin were destroyed, Job knew he would be resurrected.

When Jesus came in flesh at the beginning of the fifth "day" of thousand years of earth's creation, that marked the 'last days" of the 'week" beginning.

We are soon to be in the very last day of one thousand years -and that is why the urgency for souls to repent and be born again, for when He returns, He's making a clean sweep of all the wicked unrepentent who remain alive, casting them into the lake of fire and then those who are alive and blessed of Him will enter the thousand year reign on earth, and will repopulate the earth with the last crop of souls born who may also be born again into the kingdom of God by the New Birth -and no devil to hinder them, either.

But the Last Day begins with a very dark night, during which the earth will be ruled by a very wicked ruler for a very short period of time and his kingdom will be utterly destroyed by the LORD Jesus at His return -and all the demons will be totally removed from earth and cast intot he lake of fire at Jesus' return.

And the nice thing is that all born again Believers who are truly living for the LORD will be taken off the earth -to heaven, as perfected sons of God in regenerated bodies, at the beginning of that 'Last Day's dark night, which is called the rapture, but I call it the "laqach", cause that is the Old Testament word which so thouroughly describes it- and first, the earth will cast out the dead bodies of every single person who belongs to the LORD [who died in faith from the beginning of the earth, from Abel, on] in their regenerated version, and they will all be called to gather at the heavenly temple's door by two trumpets sounding twice, to call them to assemble together before the LORD at the door.
That will be a first harvest of earth's sons of God, which is the fruit Jesus came to be "husbandman" to produce from earth for the Father's glory to fill.

It is all typed in the oracles committed to the Jews, and the priests holy garments made for "beauty and for glory" pattern the regenerated in Spirit and in body perfected "sons" of God, dressed to enter the Holy of Holies and celebrate their consecration week.
Leviticus chapter 8 'types' the celebration behind the shut temple doors of the fully dressed 'priests' and the consecration celebration feast is of one week -seven days- which is seven years back on earth!

Called by the two trumpets sounding twice together is typed in Numbers 10;1-7.
The call is foretold in Psalm 50 -"gather My people together to me -from heaven above and earth beneath," so I can vindicate them.
The 'dead' in body Saints come with Him in the air from heaven and get their regenerated bodies which are 'cast out of their graves'. -the whole world will know, as the graves will be opened, just as they were when Jesus gathered those "first of firstfruits" of earth's first harvest of sons of God in perfected bodies after He rose from the dead, as The Firstfruits, Himself, to take with Him when He ascended on First of Firstfruits -the Resurrection Day.


Psalm 75:2,3, in Hebrew says they are "laqach" and then the earth and all its inhabitants are "dissolved" -as in great distress.
Next -an upside down, jumping about in it's orbit, earth, with sixteen hour days, so that all flesh will not burn up in the heat of the sun and moon, which will shine seven times brighter on men.
Tsunamis and earthquakes, every island disappearing, fires, plagues, pestilences, famine, war, and so on and so forth, while for the first three and a half years of that time, Elijah and Moses will be preaching "Jesus Christ" as Messiah and Mercy Seat and soon coming King, in the streets of Jerusalem...and there's more -want my Scriptures?
 
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timlamb

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okay -I think I know what I am and how to describe it, :)-I'm a "last days" Believer!

The biblical word for the times we live in are "the last days".
The "last days" began when the promised Messiah became human flesh.
Then, after these last days, there will be a 'last day'.
Then, after the Last Day, there will be an end of this present creation and a New First Day, which is the New Beginning of this entire creation which will last forever and forever.

I've believed this for some time, and I have spoken of it, but hadn't thought of it in relation to your question.
The earth has one "week" of seven thousand years and the last is a Sabbath Thousand, when Messiah will reign in Peace and man will be truly blessed.
Job spoke of the "last" day when his Redeemer -God- would stand on the earth and he, Job, would see Him with His own eyes -after his flesh and skin were destroyed, Job knew he would be resurrected.

When Jesus came in flesh at the beginning of the fifth "day" of thousand years of earth's creation, that marked the 'last days" of the 'week" beginning.

We are soon to be in the very last day of one thousand years -and that is why the urgency for souls to repent and be born again, for when He returns, He's making a clean sweep of all the wicked unrepentent who remain alive, casting them into the lake of fire and then those who are alive and blessed of Him will enter the thousand year reign on earth,
and will repopulate the earth with the last crop of souls born who may also be born again
into the kingdom of God by the New Birth -and no devil to hinder them, either.

But the Last Day begins with a very dark night, during which the earth will be ruled by a very wicked ruler for a very short period of time and his kingdom will be utterly destroyed by the LORD Jesus at His return -and all the demons will be totally removed from earth and cast intot he lake of fire at Jesus' return.

And the nice thing is that all born again Believers who are truly living for the LORD will be taken off the earth -to heaven, as perfected sons of God in regenerated bodies, at the beginning of that 'Last Day's dark night, which is called the rapture, but I call it the "laqach", cause that is the Old Testament word which so thouroughly describes it- and first, the earth will cast out the dead bodies of every single person who belongs to the LORD [who died in faith from the beginning of the earth, from Abel, on] in their regenerated version, and they will all be called to gather at the heavenly temple's door by two trumpets sounding twice, to call them to assemble together before the LORD at the door.
That will be a first harvest of earth's sons of God, which is the fruit Jesus came to be "husbandman" to produce from earth for the Father's glory to fill.

It is all typed in the oracles committed to the Jews, and the priests holy garments made for "beauty and for glory" pattern the regenerated in Spirit and in body perfected "sons" of God, dressed to enter the Holy of Holies and celebrate their consecration week.
Leviticus chapter 8 'types' the celebration behind the shut temple doors of the fully dressed 'priests' and the consecration celebration feast is of one week -seven days- which is seven years back on earth!

Called by the two trumpets sounding twice together is typed in Numbers 10;1-7.
The call is foretold in Psalm 50 -"gather My people together to me -from heaven above and earth beneath," so I can vindicate them.
The 'dead' in body Saints come with Him in the air from heaven and get their regenerated bodies which are 'cast out of their graves'. -the whole world will know, as the graves will be opened, just as they were when Jesus gathered those "first of firstfruits" of earth's first harvest of sons of God in perfected bodies after He rose from the dead, as The Firstfruits, Himself, to take with Him when He ascended on First of Firstfruits -the Resurrection Day.


Psalm 75:2,3, in Hebrew says they are "laqach" and then the earth and all its inhabitants are "dissolved" -as in great distress.
Next -an upside down, jumping about in it's orbit, earth, with sixteen hour days, so that all flesh will not burn up in the heat of the sun and moon, which will shine seven times brighter on men.
Tsunamis and earthquakes, every island disappearing, fires, plagues, pestilences, famine, war, and so on and so forth, while for the first three and a half years of that time, Elijah and Moses will be preaching "Jesus Christ" as Messiah and Mercy Seat and soon coming King, in the streets of Jerusalem...and there's more -want my Scriptures?
There are so many interpretations of end times I never disagree on any point that gives praise and honor to God.

But that statement above which I singled out, I have never heard before. Reproduction will continue into the millenium? I think that goes extreemly contrary to the plan of man as we have seen. God could have created man sinless in an ideal inviroment, that will be our future condition. But I see this experiment called man as a seperation of sheep and goats. The breading of a "super race" of sheep would, in my opinion, be something totaly seperate from the existance of todays man and nothing I have seen prophecied. I look forward to your evidence for this belief.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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And these are the Days of the Glad Tidings to all people!
Today the evangel is announced to all, with the invitation to all to come to the Feast Prepared by the Father. -Today is the day of the "Pilgrim's Progress".

Luk 2:7-11 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


Luk 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve [were] with him,

Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

~~~~~~
Mat 13:34 -43 ¶All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

¶Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of
man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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There are so many interpretations of end times I never disagree on any point that gives praise and honor to God.

But that statement above which I singled out, I have never heard before. Reproduction will continue into the millenium? I think that goes extreemly contrary to the plan of man as we have seen. God could have created man sinless in an ideal inviroment, that will be our future condition. But I see this experiment called man as a seperation of sheep and goats. The breading of a "super race" of sheep would, in my opinion, be something totaly seperate from the existance of todays man and nothing I have seen prophecied. I look forward to your evidence for this belief.

and I by no means believe that anyone has to believe what I say I see, but all [who have come to the age of accountability] who are born again, into Christ, are redeemed not by the words of men or by doctrines of men, but by His Name -by believing on Him -which is the 'belief' that brings 'obedience' from our hearts, which is eternal Life.

Adam will continue to multiply until the cutting off of all seed of Adam in the 'eighth' day, which Abrahan received the sign of, which was circumcision of the males on the eighth day. -That is what circumcision is 'representing', and by faith, the born again in Spirit Believers will continue in the New Man's bodily image into which they will be "perfected" at harvest time.

There are two harvests in the Memorial feasts of YHWH, given as oracles to the nation of Israel about His Person and work to redeem all mankind, and the earth, and to regenerate the heavens and the earth for the redeemed sons of God in Christ to inhabit as their dominion forever.

Jesus in His resurrection "perfected" body is the Firstfruits of the first harvest, which harvest is not yet gathered.

He was not 'mortal' in His body when He came in the flesh of the second human creation; and there was no sin or taint of corruption in His flesh -which is why He could be the "perfect" Lamb for ur sacrifice; but on the cross He tasted our death -the spiritual separation from the Father- when He became sin for every 'Adam" person -and the sting of death is sin, so He was stung for us when He became our "serpent on the pol", lifted up so we may look upon [gaz] Him, and be healed.

When He tasted our sin, He "became mortal" for us [but no sin dwelt in His flesh, still, and it could not corrupt in three days and three nights while He was absent from it, for no death reigned in it and death had no power over it, for corruption]; and He departed His body as our "Scapegoat", bearing our sins and iniquities to Sheol, in our place; and when He rose, He rose "perfected" to die no more, and He took that body back up in which He ascended and is glorified as 'Son of Man/Son of God, in, forever.

But when He rose as "Firstfruits from the dead", He also gathered up a 'sheaf" according to the pattern given to Moses, to present in the temple on high at His ascension, and those whom He raised in their bodies of perfection came out of their graves and walked about the city and were seen of many. The graves were opened because they rose bodily to die no more, to fulfill feast of first of firstfruits, according to the oracles.

In the Memorial Feasts, First of Firstfruits is gathered on the eve before the first, first day of the week after Passover, which begins when the sun goes down. When Jesus told Mary not to cling to Him, as He had not yet ascended to the Father, He was going as High Priest of earth, with Himself as The Firfruits and those of the gathered "sheaf" as His presentation to the Father in the temple on high.

Because the Firstfruits were gathered and presented, the full harvest is coming, and the time of that gathering in is when the Church is taken in their bodies of perfection, elementally changed into His likeness. But all who are changed at that time include His righteous who died in faith from the beginning of this creation: from the death of Abel to the death of the last born again Believer just before His coming in the air to get His people -so it is called the ingathering of the Gentiles.

Then, the harvested sons in perfected bodies go in, celebrate their consecration as priests in their "holy garments" [the garments of 'Salvation"] and rule with Him from the heavenly realm [the lowest heaven] over earth, as "perfected" in body sons of God, for the thousand year Sabbath. They do not return to dwell on this earth until it is regenerated; and the regenerated heaven comes down to be united with the regenerated earth after the thousand years, when all seed of Adam is cut off forever from multiplying.

So who multiplies "Adam" during the Millennial reign? -All those who remain alive and are judged by the LORD at His return to reign on His throne of glory who enter into the kingdom as "the Blessed of the LORD" -both the Believing Jews, called the elect, who are passed under His rod when He returns, in the wilderness, when He "laqach's them to the wilderness by angels gathering them from all nations in which any remain, and bringing them to the wilderness at His return -Ezekiel 20:33-44.

They will be Born again in Spirit as we are, now, [who are] -under the New Covenant promised to Abraham in the beginning, at His name change- and they will marry and give in marraige as we do, now [who do]. After the Elect [all living of the seed of Jacob] are gathered and judged, the angels gather all remaining living people of the Gentiles, and separate them as the goats and the sheep, and also bring them to be judged before the LORD on His throne of glory. The sheep enter into the millennial reign as the Blessed of the LORD to populate the earth along with the "Elect", of the nation of Israel who remain alive.
The purged of Israel and the purged goats of the Gentiles will be cast into the everlasting fire at that time and will not ever be brought out for further judgment. also, all the demons will be gathered up and cast into the everlasting fire, where the false prophet and the beast are, before the living remaining are gathered and judged.


The earth will be given a Sabbath Rest of great peace and glory, and all the Gentile nations will celebrate Tabernacles -which is the time of the final harvest, yet to come- by sending male representatives up to Jerusalem to keep that feast during the millennium.
Sinners will die at the age of a hundred, babies will not die; Jerusalem will be filled with children playing in the streets, and the days of His people will be as the days of a tree -but they will not be in regenerated "perfected" bodies until the second and last harvest of sons of God.

The 144,000 froim every tribe of Israel which will be gathered to heaven during that time of Great Tribulation [when it is God's wrath poured out on the nations of the world] are called the firstfruits of the second and last harvest.

At the last harvest, after the heavens and earth are regenerated and heaven unites with earth, there will be no more temple, for God and the Lamb are the temple of it, and all born again Believers will have/ or be, a Memorial Stone in the Eternal Holy of Holies, which is New Jerusalem, which Moses received the pattern of, to copy; and the Secret Place, called The oracle, represented that City which was seen "afar off" by the Saints of old, which they did not inherit and which was not of this earth.
Then the earth will be filled with the sons of God which the Father sought when He made Adam "male and female", "one spirit", and commanded the multiplication of his [Adam's] seed, to be the "sons of God" who would rule the earth as their dominion, by them. Genesis 5:2; Genesis 1:26-28; Malachi 2:15; Luke 3:38.


The whole story is about redemption back, for the Father's glory, but in the New Man who was to come from the beginning and is come and shall come.

The realm of heaven which we who are "laqach" to, is that realm which Adam lost acces and dominion of, in the fall, for that is what we are cut off from forever in Adam, as
sons of God"

The New Man is come as Kinsman to Adam to do the part of Kinsman to His brother, to raise up the seed to their lost inheritance -but in His New Man image, for the Adam is dead in spirit without remedy. "Redeemer" and "Kinsman" is the same Hebrew word.

Everything about the Levitical priesthood was a pattern of heavenly truth. their garments were to be made for "glory and beauty", and they represented our New Spirit and New Body, which we get from JEsus Christ, in which we will be "perfected" sons of God and enter into His temple in heaven and be priests unto Him as Adam was made to be, as "Adam, son of God".

Exd 28:2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
After the thousand year reign, we will return to dwell in our regenerated dominion forever, and then there will be no multiplication of Adam's seed nor any marrying nor any giving in marraige [for all the earth will be filled with the sons He sought in the beginning, and procreation was to produce the seed for God to indwell as His temple on this earth -Malachi 2:15].
and the Father's glory will fill the earth, forever.

And some will "shine as the stars" in the regeneration, in our perfected and glorified bodies -bodies which we don as garments for beauty and for glory indeed!
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I'm sorry, it still sounds like a streach to me. But hey, If I get to spend a thousand years making babies with my wife in perfect bodies, I'll take it.
Oh! Please, please! -No way! -perfected in body sons of God do not marry nor are they given in marraige -but they also do not dwell on the unregenerated earth in houses below!

At the time of the first harvest, you are going to be perfected in body with all the saints of the ages of this earth and dwell in the New Jerusalem above, in the heaven which is over this earth.

Those remaining alive after the judgement of them on earth at His return -after the seven year night before the Dawn of the Last Day, will be born again in Spirit but not in body and will populate the earth for the thousand years.

I edited my post, above, to include a few passages and comments which may add more light.
 
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Dave Taylor

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Do you call it The Church age or the age of Grace, or both. I am not sure about defining this as the age of grace as all are saved through grace from the beginning.

One more question. In this age, are we chosen of God, or do we choose Him? I have heard some good scripture and arguements both ways. Personally, I think free will is so important to having a heart for God that I have trouble with any predestination ideas.

Lets get some good dispensational discussion going and make this thread honest again.:clap:
I call 'this age' the New Testament Harvest Age.

It is the time when the harvestors are reaping the white and readied fields.

It is distinguished from the age to come, which is the eternal age wherein believers have eternal life, and sin, death, and all wickedness have been cast out, and the creation is no longer subject to bondage and corruption.
 
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