What do you believe in?

[cubinity]

When Jesus knocked on my door, it was His choice to do so, not mine.
When I chose to answer, that was my choice, which He allowed me to make.
The good He brought in was His to bring, not mine to take.
When He gave it to me, I received it with thanksgiving.
In receiving the good Jesus brought into my life, my destiny was changed forever.
The old was dead, and the new was born.
This is the story the Bible gives me, and it is the one I believe.
It is a story about both destiny and free-will.
It is a story about the choices God made, and the choices I made as well.

 

[Jake255]

When Jesus knocked on my door, it was His choice to do so, not mine.
When I chose to answer, that was my choice, which He allowed me to make.
The good He brought in was His to bring, not mine to take.
When He gave it to me, I received it with thanksgiving.
In receiving the good Jesus brought into my life, my destiny was changed forever.
The old was dead, and the new was born.
This is the story the Bible gives me, and it is the one I believe.
It is a story about both destiny and free-will.
It is a story about the choices God made, and the choices I made as well.

wow, dude, that's awesome!

 

[98cwitr]

Jesus doesn't knock on doors, you knock on His...Jesus never says "I'll come to you" for He has already done so, it is us that come must come to Him. But how can one come to Christ...well...it's all in John 6.

Matthew 3:14
Matthew 11:28
Matthew 19:14
John 5:40
John 6:37
John 6:44
John 6:65 <---great point made here!
John 7:37

Here's my take. "They," referring to those who do not believe, were destined to stumble, and the audience, referring to those who do believe, once also stumbled according to that destiny, and thus one can conclude that we were all destined to stumble, but that the destiny of some, namely those who believe, has changed, just as they have changed, into new creations. Thus, their destiny now differs from the destiny of those who do not believe.

That, however, says nothing about free-will.

For we can see destiny as an inevitable and unchangeable, but in doing so we render God, the all-mighty, incapable of changing the inevitable. I too see destiny as inevitable from our limited control, but not unchangeable when God, who is capable, gives us a new destiny.

I see this author communicating that in our freedom, God has changed our destiny, and is yet to change the destiny of those who currently do not believe.

It is not a condemnation of them, but a present distinction between "they" and the identified audience.

Thus, I am not redefining destiny to believe in free-will, but identifying a supernatural factor that is greater than even my own destiny: God.

You're essentially saying that God changes His mind about our fate. Is that right?

If God changes the "inevitable", it was never really inevitable.

 

[cubinity]

wow, dude, that's awesome!

thanks.
I'm glad to see us together on another thread.
I really like the way you think!
Keep up the posting (but make sure to get out and enjoy real life, too).

 

[GrayAngel]

Yes. We are free to do whatever we want. Should we? No, of course not.. But, are we allowed to? Yes. It is still our choice.

No, we are not allowed to. Our faith saves us, but faith without works is dead. If we claim to love God, but continue to live as the world, then we're lairs.

The two ideas presented here don't really work together.
1. If we are selected to work, we will work. - (a statement of definite certainty, free of choice)
2. We still need to evangelize. - (a statement about behaving a certain way, as if we have a choice)

They work perfectly together. Just like a saved person doesn't live a sinful lifestyle, a predestined servant of God will evangelize. We were commanded to do so, by Jesus. Whether we do or not has nothing to do with free choice. Either we were chosen to serve, or we weren't.

First, I don't get how this is an argument that free-will is an excuse for laziness, as I don't see laziness as a variable in the argument.

Christians who don't evangelize are lazy. Essentially what you were implying was that predestination means that we have an excuse to sit back and let God do all the work. But God uses us to act in the world.

Second, this discussion isn't about whether it is us or whether it is God who saves, but whether or not we have a choice in the matter. I believe those are two very distinct issues, don't you?

The two are more connected than you think. According to free will, we choose salvation. God puts salvation on the table, but whether or not we're saved is our choice. With predestination, God elected us, and it was God's choice to save us.

Also, most proponents of free will say that God calls everyone. If God offers salvation to everyone, but every is not saved, then that makes it our choice that saves us.

 

[98cwitr]

Evangelism is still necessary since we are vessels for God's Word...see Acts 12-13

 

[GrayAngel]

Predestination is different because the doctrine states you can not lose your salvation. It also causes people to be puffed up (in my experience, I am not saying you personally are) that they are "God's chosen". It also absolves a person from making a decision to accept Him, because a person can and do reject Him too. There are many active things we must do as a Christian, not saying you don't do them, but the predestiners I've ran into throw half the Bible out and they don't do what it says because "they are saved". It also throws out the santification process.

We can not save anyone, we simply witness to others and God does the rest.

I do not believe in solely predestination and I also serve through His Body in our community, many people serve and believe as I do.

The things you've described are true of most Christians in general. It has nothing to do with the belief in predestination. Christians will always be "puffed up," unless their hearts are right with God.

What you said, that we cannot save anyone. Is true. This the heart of predestination. God uses us to save people, but we do not have the power to save anyone. This also means that we cannot give up on anyone. We never know, God might save even the one's we'd be least likely to expect.

 

[cubinity]

No, we are not allowed to. Our faith saves us, but faith without works is dead. If we claim to love God, but continue to live as the world, then we're lairs.

Yes, we are allowed to be liars. How else do you explain so many of them?

They work perfectly together. Just like a saved person doesn't live a sinful lifestyle, a predestined servant of God will evangelize. We were commanded to do so, by Jesus. Whether we do or not has nothing to do with free choice. Either we were chosen to serve, or we weren't.

So, we don't choose to serve?
Then, there is no meaning in say we need to serve.
For what we need to automatic, and thus we do not need instruction on it.
So, no, they don't work perfectly together.
One cancels the other out.
Either it is voluntary, and thus there is meaning in saying we need to, or it is automatic, and thus meaningless to say we need to.

Christians who don't evangelize are lazy. Essentially what you were implying was that predestination means that we have an excuse to sit back and let God do all the work. But God uses us to act in the world.

I was implying no such thing.
What you glean is a matter of your particular way of decoding my words, and does not speak of my intentions at all.
Predestination as you are using it in saying we don't have a choice illustrates a reality in which there is no need to share information, as it cannot affect any of our behaviors, as we are not the ones making any choices about our behaviors anyway.
In identifying we make choices, I am communicating the very reason we share information.
Education and knowledge are meaningless to those who do not make any decisions.

The two are more connected than you think. According to free will, we choose salvation. God puts salvation on the table, but whether or not we're saved is our choice. With predestination, God elected us, and it was God's choice to save us.

Also, most proponents of free will say that God calls everyone. If God offers salvation to everyone, but every is not saved, then that makes it our choice that saves us.

No, our choice doesn't save us.

Our choice is whether or not we will accept the salvation, not whether or not it happens.

Think of it in one way. I am hanging on the side of a ledge. I cannot pull myself up. I really want to, but I simply can't do it. I choose to be off the ledge, but I can't make it happen. You come along, and you reach out your hand in an offer to pull me up. You do not force yourself upon me. You do not grab my wrists and yank me up. You simply put your hand within my reach and communicate that from your position, and within your strength, you can get me off that ledge. Now, you have given me a choice. If I keep trying on my own, I won't succeed. If I reject your help, I won't succeed. If I let go, I won't succeed. But, if I choose to take your hand, it will not devoid the fact that it was you, your position, and your strength, that pulled me off that ledge. It might have been my choice to take your hand, but it was still you that made the difference.

No?

 

[cubinity]

Evangelism is still necessary since we are vessels for God's Word...see Acts 12-13

Necessary and compulsory, or necessary and voluntary?

 

[98cwitr]

Necessary and compulsory, or necessary and voluntary?

One of many fruits of the Spirit thus evidence of one that is saved. Would to love for you to clarify on my comments in #63 though.

 

[cubinity]

Jesus doesn't knock on doors, you knock on His...Jesus never says "I'll come to you" for He has already done so, it is us that come must come to Him. But how can one come to Christ...well...it's all in John 6.

Matthew 3:14
Matthew 11:28
Matthew 19:14
John 5:40
John 6:37
John 6:44
John 6:65 <---great point made here!
John 7:37





You're essentially saying that God changes His mind about our fate. Is that right?

If God changes the "inevitable", it was never really inevitable.

Sorry. I totally missed this post. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

My first reaction is that you describe us coming to Jesus, but you are insisting that we don't choose to, right? I mean, we just do it compulsively, without wanting or willing ourselves to, right?

I'll look at your suggested verses and tell you what they mean to me. That's all I can really do I guess:

Matthew 3:14 - the context is John doing his thing, and Jesus shows up. John, humbled in the presence of his Savior, makes a statement in conflict with Jesus' pursuit to be baptized by John. I equate this statement by John with Peter's statement in Matt. 16:22. It is a case of someone in Jesus' life missing the point. What you think it has to do with our discussion is lost on me. Sorry.

Matthew 11:28 - Oh, are you using these verses to communicate that Jesus wants us to come to him? Interesting. Isn't that the same reason a person knocks at a door? Because they want you to come to where they are and answer? See Luke 12:35-48

Matthew 19:14 - To this instruction, did his audience reply, "Let them? If it was up to us, we would. But it's up to God, so why are you instructing us to let them. It's God's fault we're in the way."

John 5:40 - how can I refuse when it isn't up to me?

John 6:37 - So what this is saying then is that it is not up to Jesus whether a person refuses him, nor up to the individual, but up to God. Thus, when he accuses his audience of refusing him in John 5:40, he is actually just accusing God of making them refuse him? And you don't see any problem with that way of reading it?

John 6:44 - draw them... Interesting that it doesn't say forces them, or makes them against their will. By saying, "draws them," it is almost as if the person has some choice in the matter.

John 6:65 - enabled them... also interesting. Able and drawn, but not automated to do so...

John 7:37 - yes! Let them! By choice.

Maybe I don't get what you are trying to say, but I do know that the Bible says in Revelations 3:20, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

 

[GrayAngel]

So, we don't choose to serve?
Then, there is no meaning in say we need to serve.
For what we need to automatic, and thus we do not need instruction on it.
So, no, they don't work perfectly together.
One cancels the other out.
Either it is voluntary, and thus there is meaning in saying we need to, or it is automatic, and thus meaningless to say we need to.

You're idea of destiny is skewed. We need food to survive. Whether we eat with our own hands or are fed with a spoon doesn't change that. In the same way, Christians need to serve, but not all of them will.

I was implying no such thing.
What you glean is a matter of your particular way of decoding my words, and does not speak of my intentions at all.
Predestination as you are using it in saying we don't have a choice illustrates a reality in which there is no need to share information, as it cannot affect any of our behaviors, as we are not the ones making any choices about our behaviors anyway.
In identifying we make choices, I am communicating the very reason we share information.
Education and knowledge are meaningless to those who do not make any decisions.

You're simplifying predestination too much. It's not as simple as: we're born, God makes us believe, we die. Our experiences affect us just the same. The difference is that God planned our experiences from the beginning. Education and knowledge are still necessary.

No, our choice doesn't save us.

Our choice is whether or not we will accept the salvation, not whether or not it happens.

Think of it in one way. I am hanging on the side of a ledge. I cannot pull myself up. I really want to, but I simply can't do it. I choose to be off the ledge, but I can't make it happen. You come along, and you reach out your hand in an offer to pull me up. You do not force yourself upon me. You do not grab my wrists and yank me up. You simply put your hand within my reach and communicate that from your position, and within your strength, you can get me off that ledge. Now, you have given me a choice. If I keep trying on my own, I won't succeed. If I reject your help, I won't succeed. If I let go, I won't succeed. But, if I choose to take your hand, it will not devoid the fact that it was you, your position, and your strength, that pulled me off that ledge. It might have been my choice to take your hand, but it was still you that made the difference.

No?

Even in that scenario, salvation was mutual. If a million men were hanging off a ledge and ALL were offered a hand to rescue them, but only one took the hand, then what makes that one man different? If we're all given the same choice, then the only difference between salvation and death is our choice. If it were God's power alone that saved us, then we'd all be saved. It wouldn't be an offered hand, but a forced hand.

But this isn't what's seen with free will. With it's system, our choice is what saves us. We're the ones who hold key to save ourselves.

 

[His_disciple3]

I believe that by His foreknowledge, He predestined those who would use their free-will to call on Him, even though this is what the Bible teaches I didn't see this in the poll, so i didn't vote

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV

 

[cubinity]

You're idea of destiny is skewed. We need food to survive. Whether we eat with our own hands or are fed with a spoon doesn't change that. In the same way, Christians need to serve, but not all of them will.

What do we need to serve for? I think it's a legitimate question, considering the discussion. You said we need food to survive. That is because food gives us energy, and surviving burns energy. What is happening that requires service that we wouldn't have without service?

You're simplifying predestination too much. It's not as simple as: we're born, God makes us believe, we die. Our experiences affect us just the same. The difference is that God planned our experiences from the beginning. Education and knowledge are still necessary.

Affects us how? Is it that God planned, or that God destined? Or, unlike another poster, are planning and destinying the same to you?

Even in that scenario, salvation was mutual. If a million men were hanging off a ledge and ALL were offered a hand to rescue them, but only one took the hand, then what makes that one man different? If we're all given the same choice, then the only difference between salvation and death is our choice. If it were God's power alone that saved us, then we'd all be saved. It wouldn't be an offered hand, but a forced hand.

But this isn't what's seen with free will. With it's system, our choice is what saves us. We're the ones who hold key to save ourselves.

The thing that your argument totally overlooks is that our having a pivotal role in our own salvation is not contrary to the Scriptures. The Scriptures never deny that we have a pivotal role in whether it happens or not. What they do say is that role isn't a boast-worthy one.

The Bible says, in one notorious example, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." - Ephesians 2:8-10

You and I read this and see two totally different things, I'm sure. I'm confident you see in this predestination, and I know I see in it free will. So, the least I can do is explain to you what I see here.

"It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith" - This equates to Jesus pulling me off that ledge because I put my hand in his.

"this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God" - This equates to my not being able to pull myself off the ledge, but God offering me his hand and having the position and strength to pull me up.

"not by works, so that no one can boast" - This equates to me recognizing I couldn't get off that ledge on my own, and giving God alone the credit for saving me.

"We are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works" - This speaks of our design, not what ultimately happens. God designed us, created us, to do good works. That says nothing about what we end up doing.

"which God prepared in advance for us to do" - Again, this speaks of design, not outcome. God designed us, and He prepared good works for us to do. That says nothing about whether or not we do them, and there is no indication that we don't have a choice in whether or not we do them.

What do you think it means? Or, what verses do you have to support that we don't have free-will?

 

[GrayAngel]

I believe that by His foreknowledge, He predestined those who would use their free-will to call on Him, even though this is what the Bible teaches I didn't see this in the poll, so i didn't vote

Would you explain, please? I don't see how the two are compatible. One says that we choose salvation, the other says that God chooses for us.

Do you know what predestination means? Before-destiny. God selected us before the world was even created. But if God chose us, then it wasn't our choice at all.

What you're thinking of is probably foreknowledge, which is distinctly different from predestination.

Also, as for your position in the poll, yours is neither. Neither means that you are not on either side. A medium in between the two is under the category of neither.

 

[Jake255]

You're simplifying predestination too much. It's not as simple as: we're born, God makes us believe, we die. Our experiences affect us just the same. The difference is that God planned our experiences from the beginning. Education and knowledge are still necessary.

I, robot......

When looking at these 2 doctrines, predestination and free will, we are choosing one at the expense of the other, which is a dichotomous worldview and is not Bibical. We can use scripture to support both views. To take away one from the other would be to take away from God and His word.

If the Bible supports both views to be true, then both views are true.

Yes, God does draw and yes, I acknowledge and receive His gift, they are both required, and both are true.

 

[cubinity]

I, robot......

When looking at these 2 doctrines, predestination and free will, we are choosing one at the expense of the other, which is a dichotomous worldview and is not Bibical. We can use scripture to support both views, and both can not be true. To take away one from the two answers would be to take away from God and His word.

If the Bible supports both views to be true, then both views are true.

Yes, God does draw and yes, I acknowledge and receive His gift, they are both required, and both are true.

 

[Jake255]

Even in that scenario, salvation was mutual. If a million men were hanging off a ledge and ALL were offered a hand to rescue them, but only one took the hand, then what makes that one man different? If we're all given the same choice, then the only difference between salvation and death is our choice. If it were God's power alone that saved us, then we'd all be saved. It wouldn't be an offered hand, but a forced hand.

You got it! We can reject Him, too. God is the only one who can offer the salvation, then we chose.

Grayangel:
But this isn't what's seen with free will. With it's system, our choice is what saves us. We're the ones who hold key to save ourselves.[/quote]
No, God saves us, He simply offers it, not forcing us, we're not robots, then we chose. We wouldn't chose if God had not drawn us first, it is Him doing the prodding.
Were you baptized? Did you proclaim that Jesus was your Savior?

 

[GrayAngel]

What do we need to serve for? I think it's a legitimate question, considering the discussion. You said we need food to survive. That is because food gives us energy, and surviving burns energy. What is happening that requires service that we wouldn't have without service?

We need to eat to live. Similarly, we must hear the gospel if we're going to be saved. Just like an infant is given food, we're given the gospel.

If I don't spread the gospel through my works, then I ensure that no one will be saved through me. I need to do it, but if I do, it's because of God working through me.

Affects us how? Is it that God planned, or that God destined? Or, unlike another poster, are planning and destinying the same to you?

It's both. One without the other would be useless. Destiny without a plan would be chaos. And a plan without a direct hand to direct the course is even worse.

I know we have the Holy Spirit, and the angels, which you would consider to be God's direction. However, God's involvement is much bigger. He reaches inside of our hearts and makes things happen, such as when He hardened the heart of pharaoh. It even says that He did this because He intended to lure the pharaoh to the sea, where He would destroy him.

What I see it saying is that we are saved by our faith, which God gives us. It has nothing to do with ourselves, and so we have no reason to be puffed up about it.

Those of us who are saved were designed by God for the purpose of serving Him. He prepared the way for us, meaning He purposefully made things happen so that we could effectively serve Him.

There was one time a girl from our church was in the mall with some others, and they were trying to decide who they should evangelize to. For no particular reason, they chose one girl who was sitting at a table in the food area. When they tried to talk to her, they found out she was deaf. However, the girl from my church knew how to talk sign language. That was God.

Some other verses:

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice the wording here. He foreknew, and He predestined. He didn't just know who would be saved, it was His decision. Those who He predestined, He called. He does not call anyone else. Those who were called were called according to His purpose, for His plan.

Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. ...

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

He chose us before the world was created. We weren't around before the world was made, so it couldn't have been our choice. We were chosen, in conformity to His will, His plan.

John 12:37-40 - Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”


God hardened the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they would not believe. First of all, this conflicts with the idea that God is calling all of us. Second, it shows that God chose to make people turn from Him.

 

[GrayAngel]

Were you baptized? Did you proclaim that Jesus was your Savior?

Yes. I was baptized twice, not included my dedication as a baby. First time was in a Lutheran church, when they sprinkled me. Second was last year when I joined a Baptist church, because they believed in full water baptism.

As for the notion of God calling all of us, I've addressed that in my previous post, specifically with the verse at the bottom.