What do you believe in?

[cubinity]

Hi, Question, does it really matter in the scope of things. We are to witness to all because we don't know who will or won't. We are to let his light shine through us, we are bought with a price. It makes for nice debate and it can be a good evening with dueling verses to compare, but in the end it will all be decided in Heaven. Wonder if there are coffee shops to sit around and discuss things.
Worship with like minded people, praise with all.

It matters when one is trying to evangelize to the lost that there is a choice to be made, and another teaches that there is no such choice, and that their unbelief is just evidence that they weren't chosen by God.

I mean, seriously, what is a person on the outside supposed to do with that?

 

[GrayAngel]

Free Will all the way-knowing what's going to happen is not the same thing as pre-destination. My daughter (given a choice) will choose the red balloon over the yellow one every time, I know what she will do, but I don't choose for her.

You didn't create your daughter, knowing every action she would take as a result. But God did. And not only that, He created the world, and every other human, angel, demon, and animal. How could God create something with such intricate and purposeful detail and claim that He didn't create their actions as much as He created the hairs on their heads?

 

[s1mp13m4n]

I do not mean to sound dumb, but can you describe the two terms? I do not understand what you are asking but I go to a Baptist church.

 

[GrayAngel]

I do not mean to sound dumb, but can you describe the two terms? I do not understand what you are asking but I go to a Baptist church.

Free will: We make our own choices, creating our own destinies. Salvation is something we earn from making a choice to believe in God. If our faith is lost, our salvation is lost.

Predestination: God formed destiny as His plan for creation, and we have no power to conflict with His plans. God hand selected who would be saved from the beginning, and salvation cannot be lost, as God had already preordained who would fall.

Essentially, the difference is their the answer to this question: Who is in control of my life?

 

[GrayAngel]

It matters when one is trying to evangelize to the lost that there is a choice to be made, and another teaches that there is no such choice, and that their unbelief is just evidence that they weren't chosen by God.

I mean, seriously, what is a person on the outside supposed to do with that?

Are you going to let what unbelievers think dictate what you believe? They also don't like to hear that there's a Hell. Should we throw that out too?

 

[cubinity]

Predestination: God formed destiny as His plan for creation, and we have no power to conflict with His plans. God hand selected who would be saved from the beginning, and salvation cannot be lost, as God had already preordained who would fall.

And also salvation cannot be found, as God has already preordained who would rise.

Thus, what is the point of a Gospel at all, since no choice man can make upon hearing it has any effect whatsoever?

 

[cubinity]

Are you going to let what unbelievers think dictate what you believe? They also don't like to hear that there's a Hell. Should we throw that out too?

I am a believer, and I am sharing what I believe. What does "what unbelievers think" have anything to do with anything I've shared?

 

[s1mp13m4n]

Based on what you said above....I believe a little of both. From the little that I know...I was saved by faith in God but salvation can not be lost once you profess Jesus as Lord. I did not earn salvation, it was His gift to me and I chose that gift, thus free will in my choice to accept God. I am in control of my life and I must pick to let God work in me and live through me. This is what I know and believe.

 

[cubinity]

Based on what you said above....I believe a little of both. From the little that I know...I was saved by faith in God but salvation can not be lost once you profess Jesus as Lord. I did not earn salvation, it was His gift to me and I chose that gift, thus free will in my choice to accept God. I am in control of my life and I must pick to let God work in me and live through me. This is what I know and believe.

Jesus knocked, and you opened the door, right?

I mean, you made the choice to open the door that let Jesus in.
It's not as if you can boast of all the good that Jesus brought into your life.
That was all Jesus, not you.
But, you did make the choice to let Him in, right?

 

[s1mp13m4n]

yes I did pick weither I want to believe in Him but He is the one doing the good in me and through me...as I can not heal any one but I can pray for them. I also understand that there is a verse in the Bible that says God picked me for Himself way back before I was born....I did not pick Him....so I think it is both.

 

[cubinity]

yes I did pick weither I want to believe in Him but He is the one doing the good in me and through me...as I can not heal any one but I can pray for them. I also understand that there is a verse in the Bible that says God picked me for Himself way back before I was born....I did not pick Him....so I think it is both.

Right on. It sounds like you get it!

 

[rwbyus]

It matters when one is trying to evangelize to the lost that there is a choice to be made, and another teaches that there is no such choice, and that their unbelief is just evidence that they weren't chosen by God.

I mean, seriously, what is a person on the outside supposed to do with that?

Hi, Precisely, no one even the lost know until they accept, they may reject GOD and Jesus over and over but until they die or accept no one including them will know if they will. GOD will prick thier heart our job is to witness and be an example. Unbelief is a state before salvation or death not evidence and no human knows until then which it will be, so we must treat everyone as though they are/could/might/will.
Just rejoice when someone is saved.
Sit down with a cup of your favorite beverage and discuss and debate with a glad heart. Fellowship and let GOD warm your heart, but don't get hung up. Let GOD, The Holy Spirit and Jesus do thier stuff and let us do ours. We are to be a reflection of Thier light, it is after all Thier light that the lost should see.

 

[cubinity]

Sit down with a cup of your favorite beverage and discuss and debate with a glad heart.

Doing that, now. Mine is a steaming cup of Yuban. Yours?

 

[GrayAngel]

And also salvation cannot be found, as God has already preordained who would rise.

Thus, what is the point of a Gospel at all, since no choice man can make upon hearing it has any effect whatsoever?

Our faith is what saves us. This is the same whether we have free will, or whether we were predestined. But with predestination, God is the author of our faith. The point of the Gospel was for the salvation of those who would be saved.

I am a believer, and I am sharing what I believe. What does "what unbelievers think" have anything to do with anything I've shared?

From what you said, it sounded like you were saying that we shouldn't believe in predestination because unbelievers wouldn't like to hear it.

 

[rwbyus]

Doing that, now. Mine is a steaming cup of Yuban. Yours?

Hi, Silverhook brand coffees, just about any of thier varieties but especially Denali.

 

[cubinity]

Our faith is what saves us. This is the same whether we have free will, or whether we were predestined. But with predestination, God is the author of our faith. The point of the Gospel was for the salvation of those who would be saved.

Is it our faith, or Jesus, that saves us?

From what you said, it sounded like you were saying that we shouldn't believe in predestination because unbelievers wouldn't like to hear it.

I don't know why it sounded like that.
I asked what an unbeliever is expected to do with being told they don't have a choice.

 

[Jake255]

I have a major issue with the predestination doctrine because it absolves all responsibility from the believer, to even obedience. There would be no need to evanglize or go out and be His Body in the world. What would be the purpose of telling us to "be the light of the world", "the city on the hill", if the chosen are already chosen and the lost are already lost?

God first draws us and then we have a decision to make, accept or reject. Our walk is always an active one, starting with the first decision to accept.

 

[GrayAngel]

I have a major issue with the predestination doctrine because it absolves all responsibility from the believer, to even obedience. There would be no need to evanglize or go out and be His Body in the world. What would be the purpose of telling us to "be the light of the world", "the city on the hill", if the chosen are already chosen and the lost are already lost?

God first draws us and then we have a decision to make, accept or reject. Our walk is always an active one, starting with the first decision to accept.

Does being saved mean we're allowed to sin and do what we want? No. Then how is predestination any different?

If we were really selected by God to do His work, then we would do it. We still need to evangelize, because we don't know who God has selected. It's our job to plant the seeds of the Gospel, but then we wait to see if God makes it grow.

You see, I could just as easily make the argument that free will is an excuse for laziness. If it's God who saves, then all we have to do is trust Him. But if it's us, then how could we ever hope to save anyone? How could I influence anyone to make the choice to believe?

In my immediate family, I'm the only one who believes in predestination. I also happen to be the only one who enjoys serving through the church, and I do it whenever the opportunity arises.

 

[cubinity]

Does being saved mean we're allowed to sin and do what we want?

Yes. We are free to do whatever we want. Should we? No, of course not.. But, are we allowed to? Yes. It is still our choice.

Then how is predestination any different?

It's not.

If we were really selected by God to do His work, then we would do it. We still need to evangelize, because we don't know who God has selected. It's our job to plant the seeds of the Gospel, but then we wait to see if God makes it grow.

The two ideas presented here don't really work together.
1. If we are selected to work, we will work. - (a statement of definite certainty, free of choice)
2. We still need to evangelize. - (a statement about behaving a certain way, as if we have a choice)

You see, I could just as easily make the argument that free will is an excuse for laziness. If it's God who saves, then all we have to do is trust Him. But if it's us, then how could we ever hope to save anyone? How could I influence anyone to make the choice to believe?

First, I don't get how this is an argument that free-will is an excuse for laziness, as I don't see laziness as a variable in the argument.

Second, this discussion isn't about whether it is us or whether it is God who saves, but whether or not we have a choice in the matter. I believe those are two very distinct issues, don't you?

 

[Jake255]

Does being saved mean we're allowed to sin and do what we want? No. Then how is predestination any different?

If we were really selected by God to do His work, then we would do it. We still need to evangelize, because we don't know who God has selected. It's our job to plant the seeds of the Gospel, but then we wait to see if God makes it grow.

You see, I could just as easily make the argument that free will is an excuse for laziness. If it's God who saves, then all we have to do is trust Him. But if it's us, then how could we ever hope to save anyone? How could I influence anyone to make the choice to believe?

In my immediate family, I'm the only one who believes in predestination. I also happen to be the only one who enjoys serving through the church, and I do it whenever the opportunity arises.

Predestination is different because the doctrine states you can not lose your salvation. It also causes people to be puffed up (in my experience, I am not saying you personally are) that they are "God's chosen". It also absolves a person from making a decision to accept Him, because a person can and do reject Him too. There are many active things we must do as a Christian, not saying you don't do them, but the predestiners I've ran into throw half the Bible out and they don't do what it says because "they are saved". It also throws out the santification process.

We can not save anyone, we simply witness to others and God does the rest.

I do not believe in solely predestination and I also serve through His Body in our community, many people serve and believe as I do.