What do you believe and why?

dogs4thewin · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
Any sin against an infinite God would receive an infinite punishment without forgiveness. Consider someone who steals from you and never apologizes, he would forever be guilty in your eyes. Then if he never received punishment for his crime you would scream injustice. You wouldn't if he apologized. Crime never forgives itself, a criminal is always a criminal if he himself doesn't repent and change. We cannot put our own level of punishment on sin, wrong is wrong. God does view sin on a different level its just the punishment is the same. I would be more willing to help a murderer who has truly found his own guilt then a thief who never realizes that he has done wrong.

ANY sin? Even those that are not sins for everyone as our pastor was explaining in church last week Sunday before last now ( as in not yesterday) something can be an idol for one person but not for another.

Yes I am still interested enough in Christianity to attend church most weeks.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
Why would you take that and ignore the rest of what I said? The answer is clearly in the rest.

Where in the rest?

We know of a God who loves us and is very much involved with our lives. He died on the cross for us so that His perfect justice would be fulfilled. You speak of a God that holds us with no regard, which further makes me question your prior Christian standings.

It helps to remember that I am no longer a Christian.

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

dogs4thewin said:
ANY sin? Even hose that are not sins for everyone as our pastor was explaining in church last week Sunday before last now ( as in not yesterday) something can be an idol for one person but not for another.

Yes I am still interested enough in Christianity to attend church most weeks.

I just had this conversation with someone. Most Christians are raised in a home with a Jesus picture, so when they pray that picture is the image they are praying to. This is idolatry and they would know better if they read their bible. The best way to prevent sin is to read the message God has given us.

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Where in the rest?

It helps to remember that I am no longer a Christian.

That is clear through your avoidance of the meat of the message and your scavenging on the skin. How could a Christian as you described yourself, continue the ignorant misunderstandings of what the bible says? The first basic knowledge of hell is the justice and forgiveness the death of Christ provides. Now instead of understanding that and respecting valid Christians who hold this belief, you perpetuate lies and propaganda that is thrown in our faces over a subject that many do not know. I would kindly ask that this part of our civil discussion is abandoned due to pot shots and weak secular debate techniques.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
That is clear through your avoidance of the meat of the message and your scavenging on the skin.

I didn't see any meat to your message. I may have been mistaken though. My question focused specifically on how the actions of a mere mortal could adversely affect the wellbeing of an omnipotent and omniscient being. Did your post address that question?

How could a Christian as you described yourself, continue the ignorant misunderstandings of what the bible says?

You are aware of the fact that not all Christians agree with your interpretation of the Bible? Clearly, even if you had met me when I was a Christian, there are many things we still would have disagreed on.

The first basic knowledge of hell is the justice and forgiveness the death of Christ provides. Now instead of understanding that and respecting valid Christians who hold this belief, you perpetuate lies and propaganda that is thrown in our faces over a subject that many do not know. I would kindly ask that this part of our civil discussion is abandoned due to pot shots and weak secular debate techniques.

What lies are you referring to specifically? I asked you a question. Is there something inherently deceptive in the question?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
I didn't see any meat to your message. I may have been mistaken though. My question focused specifically on how the actions of a mere mortal could adversely affect the wellbeing of an omnipotent and omniscient being. Did your post address that question?

You are aware of the fact that not all Christians agree with your interpretation of the Bible? Clearly, even if you had met me when I was a Christian, there are many things we still would have disagreed on.

What lies are you referring to specifically? I asked you a question. Is there something inherently deceptive in the question?

There is no different interpretation of the bible. The bible says so as well, that is a very large misunderstanding
that needs to be destroyed. Our sin affects God as He is our father. My childrens mistakes affects me greatly.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
There is no different interpretation of the bible. The bible says so as well, that is a very large misunderstanding
that needs to be destroyed.

Of course there are different interpretations of the Bible. Why do you think there are so many diverse denominations?

Our sin affects God as He is our father. My childrens mistakes affects me greatly.

How does it affect him? Can his wellbeing be adversely affected by what human beings do?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Of course there are different interpretations of the Bible. Why do you think there are so many diverse denominations?

How does it affect him? Can his wellbeing be adversely affected by what human beings do?

Different denominations are the direct works of Satan. As to how we affect our Lord, I'm assuming you do not have children.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
Different denominations are the direct works of Satan.

So yours is the only true interpretation? The One True Religion? Hmmm... where have I heard that before?

As to how we affect our Lord, I'm assuming you do not have children.

We are talking specifically about causing harm; enough harm to merit eternal torment as a punishment. Are human beings capable of harming a deity?

TillICollapse · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
My childrens mistakes affects me greatly.

Would you ever consider sending your own children off to eternal torment with pain and suffering without end ?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
So yours is the only true interpretation? The One True Religion? Hmmm... where have I heard that before?

We are talking specifically about causing harm; enough harm to merit eternal torment as a punishment. Are human beings capable of harming a deity?

It isn't my interpretation its black and white in the bible. Does a man that stands trial before a judge harm him? Does not a just, compassionate judge mourn for the victim and pity the criminal? Your idea of God is a god that is extremely disconnected from His creation. It actually says more about your own morality then that of Gods.

TillICollapse · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
It isn't my interpretation its black and white in the bible.

According to the first few chapters of Genesis, Adam and Eve:

* Had direct communication with their Creator.
* Had tools given to them directly by the Creator (i.e. each other).
* Had the words of God spoken to them directly, clearly, black and white.
* Still messed up their interpretation.

What is it that makes you think you aren't making the same mistake that's outlined in what I presume are the first few chapters of the very books you are referencing ?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

TillICollapse said:
Would you ever consider sending your own children off to eternal torment with pain and suffering without end ?

If one of my children refused me as his father and caused my other children to sin and harmed them and did not help them, I would punish them, yes. As for eternity, I'm not infinite and my punishment would reflect the time I am here on earth. By your own standards, you should not agree with life in prison no matter the crime, since the actual crime was only for an instant.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
It isn't my interpretation its black and white in the bible.

That's also what the people who disagree with your interpretation of the Bible would say about theirs.

Does a man that stands trial before a judge harm him? Does not a just, compassionate judge mourn for the victim and pity the criminal? Your idea of God is a god that is extremely disconnected from His creation. It actually says more about your own morality then that of Gods.

I don't know of any just and compassionate judge that, moved by pity, would then proceed to sentence a criminal to an eternity of torture. As TillICollapse pointed out, the parental metaphor is even worse. What kind of parent would punish their child with unending torture and then have the audacity to express feelings of love for that poor child?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

TillICollapse said:
According to the first few chapters of Genesis, Adam and Eve:

* Had direct communication with their Creator.
* Had tools given to them directly by the Creator (i.e. each other).
* Had the words of God spoken to them directly, clearly, black and white.
* Still messed up their interpretation.

What is it that makes you think you aren't making the same mistake that's outlined in what I presume are the first few chapters of the very books you are referencing ?

They had a different interpretation? God told them not to, they did even knowing that God told them no and they were scared. That doesn't sound like misinterpretation to me, that sounds like disobedience. It also sounds like you reaching for straws.

TillICollapse · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
If one of my children refused me as his father and caused my other children to sin and harmed them and did not help them, I would punish them, yes. As for eternity, I'm not infinite and my punishment would reflect the time I am here on earth. By your own standards, you should not agree with life in prison no matter the crime, since the actual crime was only for an instant.

Does eternal punishment in your model involve eternal pain ? There is a difference between sitting in a prison cell, verses having never ceasing pain inflicted upon you.

What does eternal punishment look like according to you ?

Archaeopteryx · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
They had a different interpretation? God told them not to, they did even knowing that God told them no and they were scared. That doesn't sound like misinterpretation to me, that sounds like disobedience. It also sounds like you reaching for straws.

How could they know it was wrong to disobey God when knowledge of good and evil was withheld from them?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
That's also what the people who disagree with your interpretation of the Bible would say about theirs.

I don't know of any just and compassionate judge that, moved by pity, would then proceed to sentence a criminal to an eternity of torture. As TillICollapse pointed out, the parental metaphor is even worse. What kind of parent would punish their child with unending torture and then have the audacity to express feelings of love for that poor child?

Wait a minute, so a just and compassionate judge wouldn't give a life sentence only to die, and by secular reasoning, be removed from existence upon death? His eternity is spent in a jail cell only to die.

Its justice, its not a lack of compassion. What is your sense of compassion? Are you actively involved with feeding the poor? Helping the wronged? do you speak of compassion without acts?

ChristCameBackFromTheDead · Feb 2, 2015

TillICollapse said:
Does eternal punishment in your model involve eternal pain ? There is a difference between sitting in a prison cell, verses having never ceasing pain inflicted upon you.

What does eternal punishment look like according to you ?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, sitting in a jail cell is torture, more then a person who has not can comprehend.

TillICollapse · Feb 2, 2015

ChristCameBackFromTheDead said:
They had a different interpretation? God told them not to, they did even knowing that God told them no and they were scared. That doesn't sound like misinterpretation to me, that sounds like disobedience.

Yes it appears they had a different interpretation. The serpent entity told Eve what was meant by what God said, she examined everything (it outlines it) and made a choice. Adam then went along and made his choice as well. I don't see where it says how Adam reasoned his choice, only that he ate along with Eve. Once their "eyes were opened," then they saw they were naked and so they hid. It doesn't say they were scared because of their choice and disobedience, it says they were scared because they saw they were naked.

It also sounds like you reaching for straws.

That may be your opinion.

What do you believe and why?

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