What do you believe about sin?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

satan has no chance against God; he is a fallen angel and very much part of the created universe, and no part of that which is created can compare with he who created everything.

Therefore it is a safe conclusion that if God allows satan to remain active and alive, it is at God's choice, not because he is not strong enough. And there can be no other motive for this than mercy.

BRILLIANT!!! EXCELLENT!!! NOW we are getting somewhere.

 

[Catherineanne]

BRILLIANT!!! EXCELLENT!!! NOW we are getting somewhere.

Perhaps we can reach better understanding by keeping away from your personal struggle, and mine, and by talking in general terms?

I hope so.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

The trouble with the theology of sin is that it assumes that we are separated from God by it. In reality, Christ bought everyone the chance to get intimate with God, regardless of sin - continual, habitul, consensual, whatever!

Motive is everything. Live with yerself as you are now, as God does, accepting behaviours that may need modifying or rejecting later on. Life being a journey. The issue is not what actions are right or wrong, but am I living truthfully?

Well it is for me. This doesnt mean we can do whatever we want and just say "well at least i'm honest", but there is truth to that too. It's a fine line, realising God accepts us and seeking to improve.

Lack of sin is impossible and does not improve our standing with God. Truth does.

 

[amadeus2]

This brought to mind a vision of heaven.

A place full of fundamentalists, which other fundamentalists take one look at, and dive in, saying, wow, this really is heaven. With a big band at the front, and a really impressive sound system and AV system. And with the most humungous Bible in the world, which it is mandatory for any speaker to hold and wave in the air. When their arms get tired, the next speaker has to take over, but the Bible must never be put down.

Meanwhile the rest of us peep through the door and think, those poor benighted souls, that really looks like hell to me, and wander away to the Elysian Fields, where there are sun loungers, and Pimms, and apple trees always in blossom. And optional rhubarb pie.

And as we wander away, the fundamentalists say, poor souls, headed away from us, our band and our thumping great Bible, and therefore by definition away from God, and towards hell.

Not realising that wherever we wander, it is never away from God. Always with him.

Several years ago after I began to read the Bible regularly, I tried to carry one (Bible) with me wherever I went. In part I was embarrassed because of what people would think, but in part I was ashamed because I was embarrassed.

I still read the Bible daily, but I know that if God's Word is not in my heart it is dead for me anyway. I guess that is what sin is...being dead inside instead of having His Word alive in me. Oh, I know that there is much more to it than that, but that is an important part of it. Without some of His Word alive within us, how can we possibly not sin?

 

[amadeus2]

There is also the question of what is authoritative when it comes to sin. The Bible? Church traditions? Our consciences? Some combination of the above?

God is the only authority, but He is all of those you mentioned. We need help to see Him clearly however.

 

[amadeus2]

So if all sin is equal, do you think that someone who told a little white lie that he never repented (e.g. he told his mum that he liked her new hairdo because he didn't want to hurt her feelings) is not forgiven by God, but a mass murderer who did repent is? While it is obvious that the latter was a greater sinner than the former?

I don't know. I've heard lots of people say that all sin is equal in God's eyes, and I don't doubt that that is biblical, but I don't buy it. A little white lie can be a good thing (if it's about something as silly as appearances - honesty does more harm than good in that department - do you tell everyone you see how ugly they are? I don't.), but murder isn't. And I don't think you need the same amount of remorse for telling little white lies as for killing people, in order to get God's forgiveness. That would be silly IMO.

But I guess that's why I'm catholic. I see degrees in sin, and I see purgatory as a solution for the problem of admitting people to heaven who died in venial sin (e.g. who never repented telling little white lies). Fundamentalist protestants would send them to hell I guess.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

How God views our transgressions is directly dependent upon how much we have been given by Him.

Someone with a lot of natural intelligence and education is held responsible for how he has used those gifts just like someone has received some of the more spiritual gifts mentioned in scripture. But...the judgement on this is complex. This why God alone (who alone is qualified) makes the final decision.

 

[amadeus2]

How much remorse does the murderer need to feel for it to be enough for God? How do you know when something is enough? How can you ever really make up for killing another human?

Do you think any murderers can go to heaven?

Someone close to me has killed someone and has asked me all of these questions. He thinks the most depraved individual will enter heaven long before he will and is eaten alive by remorse.

I think it's probably harder for us to forgive other people for the things they've done than it is for God to forgive us. If God's not bigger than us in that regard, we're in a lot of trouble.

Remember that King David in effect murdered Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba. Yet David remained very special with God because once his error was pointed out he did not attempt to justify himself or to shift the blame to someone else. He accepted the responsibility and the judgment from God that went with it.

 

[amadeus2]

Then why does the Bible focus on repentence so much? If God forgives just anyone when they don't even repent? Sure, I try to forgive people who have hurt me and don't feel sorry for it - it is my greatest struggle in life, but I try. All the time. But I do think that repentance is necessary. And forgiving someone for something very serious that they don't feel sorry for is easier said than done.

Anyone who has ever read Corrie Ten Boom will recall the German guard she met after WWII in Germany who had become a Christian. She remembered him as one of the worst offenders among the German guards in the concentration where she was persecuted and where her dear natural sister died. She wanted do forgive him, but when it came time to shake his hand she was unable to move her arm. But...she was praying. God moved that arm and she was able to forgive him in spite of the horrors she had witnessed and suffered because of him in that camp.

 

[amadeus2]

I think you lost me.

What is gumbo? Okra I think I know; a weird kind of vegetable, sometimes called ladies fingers? But gumbo is all Greek to me.

Go to the Red Lobster restaurant in the United States and order some theirs to get just a small clue. Done right, it is irresistible.

 

[amadeus2]

My own view of this is that it is the other way round. Sin separates us from God because God in his mercy chooses not to look at it, not because we are tarnished by it.

God tells Moses that no man can look on God and live. This is not because God is sadistic, it is because God's love and holiness are so powerful that they will burn up anything they look upon which is not equally loving and holy. So in our natural state God does not turn his face full upon us, because to do so would destroy us.

It is only when, through Christ, we become as perfect and holy as he is, that God can look at us face to face, and we can, in turn, look at him. The unequal exchange is not just about mortality, but it is also about holiness. Christ exchanges his Divine perfection for our human imperfection (not of behaviour but of existence), and offers us his own perfection.

Sin is, therefore, nothing to do with what we do, and everything to do with who we are in relation to God. In which case it is meaningless to say, God I pray to you, I focus my life on finding your will and following it, and yet I am a sinner. The two do not go together. We can say that we have sinned and gone astray, and ask forgiveness for this, but God does not see that sin, and is not interested in it. He is interested in how much we reflect the life and example of his son in what we do.




I disagree with this. Fundies may be many things, most of them barking mad, but they are not hypocrites, imo. But they do have a tendency to notionally enter heaven with the most fiendish of sins, and then close the door behind them to a very narrow gap indeed.

Our God is a consuming fire, but His mercy is immeasurable.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The trouble with the theology of sin is that it assumes that we are separated from God by it. In reality, Christ bought everyone the chance to get intimate with God, regardless of sin - continual, habitul, consensual, whatever!

Motive is everything. Live with yerself as you are now, as God does, accepting behaviours that may need modifying or rejecting later on. Life being a journey. The issue is not what actions are right or wrong, but am I living truthfully?

Well it is for me. This doesnt mean we can do whatever we want and just say "well at least i'm honest", but there is truth to that too. It's a fine line, realising God accepts us and seeking to improve.

Lack of sin is impossible and does not improve our standing with God. Truth does.

As I have absolutely no consciousness of sin whatsoever, your post is a great comfort to me.
By most people's standards, that would make me lost forever.
You give me hope.

 

[icedtea]

It is not because of mercy, but free will. God lets us choose whom to follow, Him or satan.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our conscience shows us our sins.
If we have no conscience, we cannot repent of our sins.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

i disagree. free will does not save anyone. Christ's mercy saves them
we all exist because of God's mercy and no other reason

Lamentations 3:21-23:
21 Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:
22 Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed,
for His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
​

If that is only the hope of the Habitation, the hope of the daimonizomai then it is My hope, and good enough for Us.

i have neither need nor use for conscience in the human sense.
mine when it was active was like a raging volcano burning me continually with pointless lava spews
it did more to drive me apart from God than drive me to Him.
in fact, in the end, it drove me insane.
that was when i broke open into we and they took up inside.

you hope in what you treasure if you will. i will continue to place my trust in God's mercy, for unto me, conscience hath played the tyrant, and volition the fickle harlot, fleeting and illusory.

 

[icedtea]

What does the bible say about conscience?

 

[holo]

I believe the same about sin as Adam did, before he fell. It wasn't really an issue for them.

People always try to offer me the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I've learned to decline it, even though it looks tempting.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

What does the bible say about conscience?

that's a very good question, but the only answer i am interested in is one with a proper analysis of the original languages, because the codified concept of "conscience" is, i understand, of relatively late derivation (compared to when the books in the Bible were written). i believe i heard somewhere that the words translated conscience originally simply meant heart or mind, but i don't recall clearly.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I believe the same about sin as Adam did, before he fell. It wasn't really an issue for them.

People always try to offer me the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I've learned to decline it, even though it looks tempting.

you totally rock. you just said the upright of my averse.

 

[Catherineanne]

Our God is a consuming fire, but His mercy is immeasurable.

Almost.

Our God's love is a consuming fire, and his mercy is immeasurable.

See what a difference such a small change can make?

Christ's death is not called the Passion for nothing.

 

[Fantine]

We are all on a journey towards wholeness, called to lead a life of loving service and to eternal life with Jesus.

Sin is proof that our journey isn't in a straight line. It is first and foremost a failure to love.

And, as with most other failures, it is our response to it, and what we learn from it, that determines our future success.

Did we learn from our sins?

More importantly, can our sins make us more compassionate and understanding to others?

When we look at the New Testament, we see that God can use sinners in powerful ways. We were led into sin for a reason, and our lives can still be a beautiful tapestry.

 

[Charlamagne1]

Can anyone deny that America has become a wickedly sinful place and needs to repent?



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