What do u think about Singapore and it way of disciplining ?

[TheyCallMeDave]

In Singapore, some things are simply not allowed in public that have an immoral message to it. For greater crimes such as vandalism, caning by an expert martial arts Person is carried out swiftly and effectively. The detterant effect seems to be working well in that society.

If this type of punishment were implemented in a different society / different country were there is rampant crime occuring....do you believe it might be enough to make the country somewhat safer and with less moral anarchy ? Im supposing this as a very last ditch effort to return a country to civility and making it a better place to live. THanks.

For further consideration : Offences punishable by caning ---

Singaporean law allows caning to be ordered for over 30 offences, including hostage-taking / kidnapping,[3] robbery, gang robbery with murder, drug abuse, vandalism, rioting, sexual abuse (molest), and unlawful possession of weapons.[4] Caning is also a mandatory punishment for certain offences such as rape, drug trafficking, illegal money-lending,[5] and for visiting foreigners who overstay their visa by more than 90 days (a measure designed to deter illegal immigrant workers).[

 

[Cactus Jack]

I've seen a few videos of it being done. Trust me. Caning is, I think, far better than any form of punishment the US has. Even the hardest of criminals would straighten up.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I've seen a few videos of it being done. Trust me. Caning is, I think, far better than any form of punishment the US has. Even the hardest of criminals would straighten up.

Im just of the mindset , that, extreme moral degradation in a Nation due to the Populace not caring about how to live ...requires extreme implemented measures of justice both as punishment and as a deterrant for other like minded reprobate Minds. The U.S. is a wonderful place in so many ways, its just a shame that it is widely unsafe to bring up families due to the massive amount of socio-paths that reside here ; that, plus the deliberate twisting of freedoms alloted Americans . People just dont care about being considerate, honest, and respectful anymore -- caning it would seem might be the instrument of choice for correcting the Ill Repute for the sake of a more safe and civil society.

 

[ValleyGal]

The UN calls caning "torture." Singapore does not.

Imo, caning is "legal" (in Singapore, for boys/men) but is absolutely no better than physical assault/abuse. As a former child protection worker, I am appalled and sickened by what they do there. I have no knowledge personally, but I think the UN is trying to do something about it.

I have heard chewing gum is against the law in Singapore. Maybe not punishable by caning, but it shows that there is not a lot of freedom. I absolutely can't support caning as an appropriate punishment - and it is not the reason there is low crime rate there. Caning is a form of punishment in countries where there is high crime rate, so other factors need to be considered for their low crime rate.

Caning people is about public shame, not about teaching appropriate social skills such as abiding by the law. People will either become more crafty in hiding their crimes, or they will obey out of fear, not out of respect. It's like trying to teach a child not to hit by spanking them for hitting - only on a much larger scale where the government is the "parent." It's not teaching them anything except that it's okay to hit if you are more powerful than the one you hit.

Absolutely NO justice can be done by caning.

 

[ValleyGal]

I am so sickened by this.....and you guys think this is social justice?

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

The UN calls caning "torture." Singapore does not.

Imo, caning is "legal" (in Singapore, for boys/men) but is absolutely no better than physical assault/abuse. As a former child protection worker, I am appalled and sickened by what they do there. I have no knowledge personally, but I think the UN is trying to do something about it.

I have heard chewing gum is against the law in Singapore. Maybe not punishable by caning, but it shows that there is not a lot of freedom. I absolutely can't support caning as an appropriate punishment - and it is not the reason there is low crime rate there. Caning is a form of punishment in countries where there is high crime rate, so other factors need to be considered for their low crime rate.

Caning people is about public shame, not about teaching appropriate social skills such as abiding by the law. People will either become more crafty in hiding their crimes, or they will obey out of fear, not out of respect. It's like trying to teach a child not to hit by spanking them for hitting - only on a much larger scale where the government is the "parent." It's not teaching them anything except that it's okay to hit if you are more powerful than the one you hit.

Absolutely NO justice can be done by caning.

Thank you for weighing in, and you are entitled to your opinion. Many disagree with your analysis including myself.

Heres a few thoughts to your post above ---

a. The UN doesnt have to maintain civility in a particular Country ; thats up to each Countrys Judicial System . The low crime rate in Singapore is testimony to that they dont mess around with reprobate Minds and if you want to feel entitled to live any way you feel like, there will be consequences. People as a result will be far more respectful and considerate as a result. It is a noble thing when the punishment fits the crime committed -- God also believes so when he said 'an eye for an eye' .

b. Im pleased to see you have compassion being a Social Worker, however, that should not trump justice for the guilty. And if it comes with some shame for the Person, then perhaps the Person will WANT TO change their immoral uncivil ways.

c. Dont you think that here in America, there is abuse in our Prisons ? There is. Wouldnt you call it abusive to lock up a person for life in a 7x14' cell with just a cheap bed, toilet, sink .. and oftentimes in complete isolation ?

d. The reason why Singapores society works is because unlike America, they dont take advantage of thier freedoms and feel entitled to bend them to conform to their personal inconsiderate and immoral proclivities. Perhaps chewing gum is against the law because of people not disposing of the gum properly afterward (?) . I know that you can be fined for not flushing the Urinal for the next guy ahead of you ... and i think thats an effective way to teach consideration and respect.

e. The main reason for the low crime rate there is because People know that their Judicial System isnt a joke and they take drastic improprieites seriously for the good of society. It isnt a problem whatsoever for the People who are upright Citizens -- its only problematic for those who want to forget whats right from wrong. It would be the same for America if it adopted some Singaporian justice as well. The problem here is , people dont care about staying on the good side of the Law.

f. Sure, caning is about public shame ; so is Americas Judicial System by having a Perpetrators name splashed all over the Mass Media for crime(s) committed to which theyve been found guilty of. And the shame remains after they come out of Prison. For those that recieve capital punishment, the shame stays with that Person by being permanently recorded in books and magazines . Shame SHOULD go along with a Person who commits heinous crimes , for, it is very shameful for inflicting harm or death on an innocent person. Dont you think our compassion should fully go to the Victim and their surviving Family , rather than the shameful Guilty ?

g. Its being proved in Singapore , that, caning IS providing justice and a deterrant to greater and growing crime. Its under control there ; its not under control here in the U.S. when law abiding People have to purchase a gun to protect themselves and family due to living in an unsafe Country no matter what part of the nation you choose to live.

h. If public caning were brought to America and televised, in addition to Adultery being a civil crime whereby the Violator is made to walk around with a big 'A' on his/her shirt...it would be a very healthy start to reforming of a devastating immoral Land . America doesnt want to live in accordance to Gods merciful and loving moral mandates or even acknowledge his Soveriegnty and Majesty... so its time American Society gets something that they DO understand and will have a positive impact on how to behave. Again, the law abiding American has nothing to fear and things would remain unchanged for them .

 

[ValleyGal]

• The “eye for an eye” thing is an OT thing. We do not live under OT law. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That is not to say we should not seek justice. But physical torture is not justice.

• Compassion does not trump justice. The two can work quite well together. Rather than simply punishing for a crime without looking at the whole person in context, it is nothing more than addressing one behaviour without looking at why they behave the way they do, and then seeking to address underlying causes. Let’s say a man steals a wallet simply for the sake of showing off to his friends or getting some adrenaline rush from it. Now let’s say another man steals a wallet because he lost his job, social services has run out, and it’s time to pay the rent or his family will be living in the car there’s no insurance on. Would you mete out the same punishment for each, or would you take compassion on one and address the social issues behind them?

• I don’t know what your prisons are like in the US. I don’t even know what Canadian men’s prisons are like. But I have been visiting a female inmate at one of our federal prisons every week for the last five years. While some of the corrections officers can be on ignorant little power trips, this woman says no one is treated inhumanely.

• The Singapore government is not trying to teach morals and respect. They are trying to dictate what you can and can’t do….they take away the liberty that men in your country fought for you to have. They don’t have those same liberties. Are you saying you do not want your freedoms and liberties? The freedom to raise your own children and teach them what YOU think is respectful rather than what the government dictates is respectful?

• If Singapore wants to treat what’s right from wrong, they do not have a good sense of it. What’s so wrong about chewing gum? It is not immoral to leave a toilet unflushed (not nice or sanitary, but certainly not immoral).

• Publicly naming someone in the West is not about public shame. It’s about warning the public about someone they need to recognize as dangerous. Caning is about shaming, and it destroys a person’s spirit.

• Where are you getting your “proof” from? The Singapore government? If so, then it’s not really proof. In fact, if you are looking for proof of programs that work, Canadian studies have shown that the more funding that goes into social programs, the less people need those programs, and this takes pressure off the justice system. As for guns, that is more about cultural mindset, stemming from colonization. In Canada, we don’t have that mindset. Ever wonder why?

• Do you think Singapore does caning simply to enforce God’s moral mandates? I don’t. Most of America is not Christian and really don’t care about God’s moral mandates. Who are we to force God’s principles onto people who do not confess that he is their God? It is not up to us to judge the world. The world will live and be judged according to its own standards. We who claim to be believers will be judged by God’s – but out of his loving compassion for us, he sent Jesus to pay our sin debt for us, so even though we are guilty, in Christ, we are holy.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

To be honest, getting away with only a caning for some of these things is ridiculously lenient, tantamount to not punishing at all.
I mean...murder someone, get 6 of the best, and you're free to go? That's injust on so many levels it defies words :S

However, if it's caning followed by prison for life/CP, then no problem...

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

• The “eye for an eye” thing is an OT thing. We do not live under OT law. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That is not to say we should not seek justice. But physical torture is not justice.

You can't have it both ways.
Either: "Turn the other cheek" means "We should do away with all kinds of a justice system", or it is useless as an argument in how Caesar should set up his laws.



Now, in reality, it means: "In your personal affairs, do not hold grudges.", but I went with your thinking

• I don’t know what your prisons are like in the US. I don’t even know what Canadian men’s prisons are like. But I have been visiting a female inmate at one of our federal prisons every week for the last five years. While some of the corrections officers can be on ignorant little power trips, this woman says no one is treated inhumanely.

So....you cannot trust Singapore's government to bring correct information, but you CAN make a sweeping generalization based on one single person's anecdotal experience?

• The Singapore government is not trying to teach morals and respect. They are trying to dictate what you can and can’t do….they take away the liberty that men in your country fought for you to have. They don’t have those same liberties. Are you saying you do not want your freedoms and liberties? The freedom to raise your own children and teach them what YOU think is respectful rather than what the government dictates is respectful?

A government makes laws that forbid certain behavior?
youdontsay.jpg
All governments make laws to regulate society for the benefit of all. If you're saying that government shouldn't "dictate what you can and can't do", then you have to support anarchy: The total absence of government, so it's every man/woman for themselves.

• If Singapore wants to treat what’s right from wrong, they do not have a good sense of it. What’s so wrong about chewing gum? It is not immoral to leave a toilet unflushed (not nice or sanitary, but certainly not immoral).

[/quote]

They don't have a good sense of it......according to some Westerners who grew up as children and grandchildren of the 60s and 70s, where the term "morality" became a negative one in the West.....
A reasonable argument could be made, that since leaving toilets unflushed is unsanitary, it constitutes a health risk. Especially in a place as crowded as Singapore is! If you want to learn something about how disease can spread in overcrowded cities, I'm sure that mid-14th century Europe would like to tell you.....or rather: What's left of mid-14th century Europe....

• Where are you getting your “proof” from? The Singapore government? If so, then it’s not really proof. In fact, if you are looking for proof of programs that work, Canadian studies have shown that the more funding that goes into social programs, the less people need those programs, and this takes pressure off the justice system. As for guns, that is more about cultural mindset, stemming from colonization. In Canada, we don’t have that mindset. Ever wonder why?

So...Singapore's government isn't reliable but "Canadian studies" are?
How's that for selective bias?

• Do you think Singapore does caning simply to enforce God’s moral mandates? I don’t. Most of America is not Christian and really don’t care about God’s moral mandates. Who are we to force God’s principles onto people who do not confess that he is their God? It is not up to us to judge the world. The world will live and be judged according to its own standards. We who claim to be believers will be judged by God’s – but out of his loving compassion for us, he sent Jesus to pay our sin debt for us, so even though we are guilty, in Christ, we are holy.

Bolding mine.
False, and heretical. When Jesus comes again as judge, He will not say to the unbelievers "Oh, whatever you believed, was fine - if you think you're a good person, you probably were..."


Finally: I don't give a fiddlestick about what "the UN" calls anything. Its opinion is utterly irrelevant.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Shame is a good deterrent to crime. I would venture to say that public humiliation is an even better deterrent as some have no sense of shame but all fear embarrassment and most criminals would be much more chastened by being humiliated publicly than by spending time in jail. What drives many criminals to crime is the status it affords them within their communities. Change that status from one of gaining respect to one of gaining derision and you have a real deterrent and the possibility of rehabilitation.

 

[ValleyGal]

You can't have it both ways.
Either: "Turn the other cheek" means "We should do away with all kinds of a justice system", or it is useless as an argument in how Caesar should set up his laws.



Now, in reality, it means: "In your personal affairs, do not hold grudges.", but I went with your thinking

My point was that the eye for eye does not hold water, since we do not live under the OT law. Of course we should seek justice, and it can go hand in hand with compassion, forgiveness. Forgiveness and compassion do not mean letting someone off the hook from experiencing consequences to their behaviour.

So....you cannot trust Singapore's government to bring correct information, but you CAN make a sweeping generalization based on one single person's anecdotal experience?

I'm saying that with countries like Singapore, they will say anything to justify their inhumane torture. I'm not saying Canada is completely honest either. In fact, our research often shows the opposite of what the government does. For example, studies show that people who commit one single murder are less likely to commit another murder when they are released, but those who are in for B & E, assault, or drug dealing (etc) are at huge risk for recidivism. Yet when the government gets "tough on crime", it is usually the murderers they get tougher on. Why? For the sake of appeasing the public and in order to win the next election. Studies show that being "tough on crime" only increases pressure on our judicial and corrections systems and sets up inmates to fail, increasing recidivism. Yet we get tough on crime anyway, again to appease the public and win the next election. But even when we get tough on crime, we don't publicly shame or beat the bad out of our people. There is humane enforcement of consequences to action rather than beating bad out and fear in (which does not work; it only serves to feed into hatred and bitterness towards authorities and possibly public rebellion/revolt.

A government makes laws that forbid certain behavior?
youdontsay.jpg
All governments make laws to regulate society for the benefit of all. If you're saying that government shouldn't "dictate what you can and can't do", then you have to support anarchy: The total absence of government, so it's every man/woman for themselves.

Yes, government makes laws, but I'm not sure it's to benefit all. I believe policies are made to keep the low low, and the rich richer and the upper crust the upper crust. We need government, but they are there for their own agenda, not for the people's agenda. And when people break laws, they should still be treated as human beings. Consequences can be imposed without breaking a person's spirit or undignifying them.

• If Singapore wants to treat what’s right from wrong, they do not have a good sense of it. What’s so wrong about chewing gum? It is not immoral to leave a toilet unflushed (not nice or sanitary, but certainly not immoral).

They don't have a good sense of it......according to some Westerners who grew up as children and grandchildren of the 60s and 70s, where the term "morality" became a negative one in the West.....
A reasonable argument could be made, that since leaving toilets unflushed is unsanitary, it constitutes a health risk. Especially in a place as crowded as Singapore is! If you want to learn something about how disease can spread in overcrowded cities, I'm sure that mid-14th century Europe would like to tell you.....or rather: What's left of mid-14th century Europe....[/quote]

Public health risks can be addressed by health programs. Not by public torture.

So...Singapore's government isn't reliable but "Canadian studies" are?
How's that for selective bias?

As I said earlier, our government does not create policies based on research. When I consider research, I consider the source. Generally, Canadian studies are relatively trustworthy, but should also still be subject to peer review and cross-referenced with other studies. Singapore, just like Canada, will do all they can to justify why they do what they do, and not publish materials that do not support their own agenda.

Bolding mine.
False, and heretical. When Jesus comes again as judge, He will not say to the unbelievers "Oh, whatever you believed, was fine - if you think you're a good person, you probably were..."

What I am saying is that as believers, we are not to judge the world according to God's standards. It's not up to us to impose standards of a God they do not choose to be subject to. They will eventually have to answer for that. Not us. We are called to share the gospel and we are called to live in obedience to God's principles, backing up our testimony of the Lord Jesus without hypocrisy. We are not to force our standards on the ungodly.

Finally: I don't give a fiddlestick about what "the UN" calls anything. Its opinion is utterly irrelevant.

As a member of the UN, Singapore should be using the UN's definition of torture. It is totally relevant.

 

[ValleyGal]

Let me ask you all a question. Would you publicly shame your own child for touching something they have been told not to touch? Would you call all the neighbours over to watch while you whip them if they spat their gum out on the counter rather than in the garbage can or did not flush the toilet?

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

My point was that the eye for eye does not hold water, since we do not live under the OT law. Of course we should seek justice, and it can go hand in hand with compassion, forgiveness. Forgiveness and compassion do not mean letting someone off the hook from experiencing consequences to their behaviour.

No matter how many times you want to repeat it, it doesn't make it true.
If you want to bring Jesus into this, and use His words about turning the other cheek, in a debate about justice systems, your only logical position, is to do away with justice systems and prisons entirely. You cannot logically make this half-baked effort to have your cake and eat it.
As Kierkegaard said (although in a totally different context that has nothing at all to do with this): Either-or

There is humane enforcement of consequences to action rather than beating bad out and fear in (which does not work; it only serves to feed into hatred and bitterness towards authorities and possibly public rebellion/revolt.

I already forgot the rest of your rant above, that's how little sense it made...
However, saying that judicial caning will lead to "public rebellion/revolt" is......well.....downright ludicrous. In fact, let's ask ourselves where scenes like that has taken place during the past several years. Is it in Singapore....or in Europe and America? I wouldn't call those scenes "public", because they were only supported by a fraction of "We want what we want, and we want it for free!!!"-rioters.

In fact, your own argument backfires, as it seems that public order is better in Singapore than in the West.

Yes, government makes laws, but I'm not sure it's to benefit all. I believe policies are made to keep the low low, and the rich richer and the upper crust the upper crust.

All with the co-operation of space-aliens who plan to invade us!!!!

Public health risks can be addressed by health programs. Not by public torture.

So...you're saying that Singapore should take its chances, stop doing what works, and start on Western-style "Please honey, if you'd be so kind, remember this, ok? But it's totally ok if you don't...."-campaigns?
I hope Singapores politicians have better sense than to take that advice.

As I said earlier, our government does not create policies based on research. When I consider research, I consider the source. Generally, Canadian studies are relatively trustworthy,

As opposed to Singapore's because of....what? Your own prejudices against Asians?

As a member of the UN, Singapore should be using the UN's definition of torture. It is totally relevant.

No country, fortunately, bends its knees to the whims of the UN without reservation, and in all things. Why should Singapore be different?

Let me ask you all a question. Would you publicly shame your own child for touching something they have been told not to touch? Would you call all the neighbours over to watch while you whip them if they spat their gum out on the counter rather than in the garbage can or did not flush the toilet?

If you think of your child as a criminal, you shouldn't be raising children. Period.
Comparing the intimacy and relations within a family with how society at large works, just speaks about desperation. It doesn't a sensible argument make.

 

[ValleyGal]

in a debate about justice systems

I was unaware this is a debate board. I thought it was

Social Justice A new forum to discuss Christianity and social justice - impacting our communities and society.

as cited at the top of the board.

If you want debate without Jesus, go ahead. I will take my leave - and I did not even finish reading your post. I am not interested in debate. I am even less interested in debate without bringing Jesus into it.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

I was unaware this is a debate board. I thought it was



as cited at the top of the board.

If you want debate without Jesus, go ahead. I will take my leave - and I did not even finish reading your post. I am not interested in debate. I am even less interested in debate without bringing Jesus into it.

Heh...
That's another way to get out of the corner you've painted yourself into...just jump out the window.

 

[Passionate Chicken]

I have friends who are in the military. Singapore isn't moral. Not when someone can buy an 8 year old girl, or younger, for sex for what amounts to the price of a pack of crackers.
All public punishment hows is that Singapore prosecution policies are publicly sadistic. That doesn't make it moral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5N7tMa2phQ

 

[ValleyGal]

Heh...
That's another way to get out of the corner you've painted yourself into...just jump out the window.

Wrong. I do not shy away from respectful debate. But I do obey the rules of the board. This is a place for Christians to discuss social justice and our faith, not to debate sans the very cornerstone of our faith. I can leave the discussion with dignity intact based on RoC rather than tail between my legs because you think I painted myself into a corner.....a faulty belief, given that I have not even read your responses to my post.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Shame is a good deterrent to crime. I would venture to say that public humiliation is an even better deterrent as some have no sense of shame but all fear embarrassment and most criminals would be much more chastened by being humiliated publicly than by spending time in jail. What drives many criminals to crime is the status it affords them within their communities. Change that status from one of gaining respect to one of gaining derision and you have a real deterrent and the possibility of rehabilitation.

Precisely. Thats why back in the day, people put in Stocks in the Town Center with the crime listed above their heads worked well. If the criminal cant find shame in his murderous acts , then a little help from the State needs to be had. Nowadays, a Prisoner doing a life sentence such as the Melendez brother can even get married with ceremony , clergy, and be recognized by the State as a legitimate marriage ... not to mention near front page news on virtually every major U.S. Cities newspaper and on the national nightly TV News and of course a variety of magazines .

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

• The “eye for an eye” thing is an OT thing. We do not live under OT law. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That is not to say we should not seek justice. But physical torture is not justice.

• Compassion does not trump justice. The two can work quite well together. Rather than simply punishing for a crime without looking at the whole person in context, it is nothing more than addressing one behaviour without looking at why they behave the way they do, and then seeking to address underlying causes. Let’s say a man steals a wallet simply for the sake of showing off to his friends or getting some adrenaline rush from it. Now let’s say another man steals a wallet because he lost his job, social services has run out, and it’s time to pay the rent or his family will be living in the car there’s no insurance on. Would you mete out the same punishment for each, or would you take compassion on one and address the social issues behind them?

• I don’t know what your prisons are like in the US. I don’t even know what Canadian men’s prisons are like. But I have been visiting a female inmate at one of our federal prisons every week for the last five years. While some of the corrections officers can be on ignorant little power trips, this woman says no one is treated inhumanely.

• The Singapore government is not trying to teach morals and respect. They are trying to dictate what you can and can’t do….they take away the liberty that men in your country fought for you to have. They don’t have those same liberties. Are you saying you do not want your freedoms and liberties? The freedom to raise your own children and teach them what YOU think is respectful rather than what the government dictates is respectful?

• If Singapore wants to treat what’s right from wrong, they do not have a good sense of it. What’s so wrong about chewing gum? It is not immoral to leave a toilet unflushed (not nice or sanitary, but certainly not immoral).

• Publicly naming someone in the West is not about public shame. It’s about warning the public about someone they need to recognize as dangerous. Caning is about shaming, and it destroys a person’s spirit.

• Where are you getting your “proof” from? The Singapore government? If so, then it’s not really proof. In fact, if you are looking for proof of programs that work, Canadian studies have shown that the more funding that goes into social programs, the less people need those programs, and this takes pressure off the justice system. As for guns, that is more about cultural mindset, stemming from colonization. In Canada, we don’t have that mindset. Ever wonder why?

• Do you think Singapore does caning simply to enforce God’s moral mandates? I don’t. Most of America is not Christian and really don’t care about God’s moral mandates. Who are we to force God’s principles onto people who do not confess that he is their God? It is not up to us to judge the world. The world will live and be judged according to its own standards. We who claim to be believers will be judged by God’s – but out of his loving compassion for us, he sent Jesus to pay our sin debt for us, so even though we are guilty, in Christ, we are holy.

Hi V.G. , Again, thanks for weighing in. In order ---

1. The God of the O.T. is Jesus of the N.T. ... and the N.T. passage you cited is not a blanket case to not punish wrongdoings to humanity . In fact, God himself will punish , physically, many for all of eternity as we know. In light of ALL of N.T. scripture, the cited passage must be taken a balanced non-legalistic interpretation ; we serve a God who says there are consequences to certain freewill decisions made by Man.

2. Im afraid your stealing illustration doesnt hold up since we serve a God whos nature and character is one of purity, morality, and righteousness...therefore, any kind of stealing is never condoned . If we embrace your philosophy with this example, then any Perpetrator should get lienecy for a crime committed because there will be something in his past that his Defense Attorney can point to which 'caused him to commit a heinous act' (IE: No Dad being around, his Mom verbally abused him, all his G/F's put him down, he struggled with depression , or his meal at McDonalds was habitually cold when served) . As for the last Thief in your example, how do you know the Man didnt squander his money on gambling or Porn or had Cadillac tastes on a Ford pocketbook ?

3. We must be very careful how we define 'inhumane treatment' by keeping in mind what the VICTIM endured at the hands of the Prisoner. Most Lifer-prisoners in the U.S. are privy to 3 square meals a day / plenty of reading material / a prison facility Library / routine visits from loved ones / and free medical . Thats a far cry from punishment thats equal to the murderous crime they committed on an innocent Person who deserved to live out their life naturally , not to mention the daily anquish left for family to cope with.

4. Things like liberty and entitlements are for those who want to live within the civil Laws . Is there something bad about a Murderer having to forfiet his liberties for butchering an innocent person to pieces.? HOw would you feel about the issue if it were your precious Daughter who got diced up after being repeatedly raped ?

5. Obviously, Singapore wants to be a Country that breeds consideration and respect for ones fellow Man/Woman/Child . Oftentimes, the depravity of Mankind can be remedied thru rememberance of whats truly right from wrong ; ill bet caning 'victims' dont easily forget unlike the repeat Offenders in the USA that get out of prison.

6. I wonder how the raped/then murdered Victim's Spirit was damaged all the while the acts were being metered out unmercifully (??) hmmmm.....

7. Guns are a necessity here in the U.S. for the law abiding populace to level the playing field with the warped minded Person who doesnt care about anothers life. Its become a dangerous place to live in large part due to lax punishment for the crime committed in addition to too many freedoms and entitlements afforded to people and Groups that take advantage of them for wrong and evil purposes (IE: Freedom of Speech Laws so a $52 billion per year Porn Industry can thrive which in large part fuels sexual abuse particularly toward women, dangerous sexual hedonism and the fallout of murdering preborn developing Human Beings as well as maintaining the current national STD epidemic) .

8. The standard SHOULD be the same for every living being on earth ..that is : The absolute moral standards that are given from a Divine Moral Law Prescriber . Since the 10 Commandments are THE highest form of morals and ethics known to mankind and which serve to reflect the very nature, character, and person of our Creator...its is those objective standards that need to be enforced with appropriate punishment to maintain a civil society. The trouble is, People dont want to be follow ANY set of standards or protocol when it comes to how they should live -- its not that they cant...its that they wont. While its true that eternal judgement will come to Mankind (whether heaven or hell) , God is a God of PRESENT JUSTICE and that means the punishment must fit the willful crime committed after properly going thru a Justice System whos civil standards are for ALL in that Land. If caning in the Land of Singapore is the objective punishment for ALL in that Country, then ALL have the opportunity to avoid that kind of punishment by choosing to live correctly. That is called : Fair Justice for all. But here in America, unfair Justice is a daily atrocity vis-a-vis lenient sentences of punishment ; its not uncommon for a Murderer to serve less than 10 years if his/her Defense Attorney can come up with a good gameplan.