What do MJ's believe about election to salvation?

[theseed]

Koilias, That is very interesting. I have noticed that Revelation seems to work backwards, based on Genesis, the first 10 chapters. The Councel of Nicea as I understand it, almost reject Revelation. The the pattarns that you have pointed out though, convince me even more that they had the same writer

 

[koilias]

Koilias, That is very interesting. I have noticed that Revelation seems to work backwards, based on Genesis, the first 10 chapters. The Councel of Nicea as I understand it, almost reject Revelation. The the pattarns that you have pointed out though, convince me even more that they had the same writer

"Working backwards" as you put it, is exactly what Revelation does. The world is "uncreated" and then a new world is created. I never noticed that it was working backwards from the first 10 chapters...sounds very interesting, care to give a brief synopsis?

I see the "working backwards" in the ordering of the weeks themselves, playing with the Creation Week chronology. The "Weeks" in Revelation are patterned thus (in relation to the Creation Week):

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven churches--follow the Creation Week exactly.

1-2-3 6-5-4 7 The seven seals--the second group is reversed.

3-2-1 4-5-6 7 The seven trumpets--the first group is reversed.

4-5-6 1-2-3 7 The seven characters (ch. 12-15)--the groups themselves are switched.

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven bowls of wrath--the Creation Week order is restored (but the heavens are not judged--only the earth and sea are judged, following the command given in Rev. 12:12 to spare the heavens).

6-5-4 3-2-1 The judgment of Babylon (ch. 17 & 18)--the Creation days are completely reversed.

and 7 The new bride is presented, the millenial reign and final judgment (ch. 19 & 20). Old earth and old heavens disappear.

New Creation (ch. 21 & 22).

 

[theseed]

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven bowls of wrath--the Creation Week order is restored (but the heavens are not judged--only the earth and sea are judged, following the command given in Rev. 12:12 to spare the heavens).

This corrosponds to the flooding and the days of Noah, where the wickedness was exceedingly great. And some say the rapture corrosponds to Enoch. I've not studied it in depth my self. But I hope to go back and read and compare it to creation week.

 

[koilias]

This corrosponds to the flooding and the days of Noah, where the wickedness was exceedingly great. And some say the rapture corrosponds to Enoch. I've not studied it in depth my self. But I hope to go back and read and compare it to creation week.

Very interesting.

This makes me think that the tribulation need not come. If we repent, HaShem will repent and remember His covenant with the earth. Hmm...but lest I continue to utter heresy amidst the trib crowd, I better shut up.

 

[INOrder]

Hi Koilias,

you mentioned that the book of john goes according to passover festivities.
Which would in fact make his book more of a Haggadah.

I disagree and I propose that his book was built to the Festival cycle of Torah reading.
There is an ancient cTorah reading cycle that was held in Jerusalem and is held today within some sefardic communities and some conservative communities.
When the yearly cycle of babylonia now held by the Ashkenazim and three year cylce interfere with the festival reading, the other reading cycles must give way for the festival reading cycle.
I believe that his book is presented in this manner, not just for pesach.
maybe we can discuss this more in legnth if you disagree.

bye

 

[koilias]

Hi Koilias,

you mentioned that the book of john goes according to passover festivities.
Which would in fact make his book more of a Haggadah.

I disagree and I propose that his book was built to the Festival cycle of Torah reading.
There is an ancient cTorah reading cycle that was held in Jerusalem and is held today within some sefardic communities and some conservative communities.
When the yearly cycle of babylonia now held by the Ashkenazim and three year cylce interfere with the festival reading, the other reading cycles must give way for the festival reading cycle.
I believe that his book is presented in this manner, not just for pesach.
maybe we can discuss this more in legnth if you disagree.

bye

Sounds quite interesting, please elaborate!

I don't know much about that festival reading cycle, what parts does it usually contain?...How would that explain the elements of Sod in the gospel in relation to this practice?

The only thing that makes me question this is the fact that Passover is a central theme of Yohannan's book, at least for chapters 12-20, which are part of the lectionary cycle leading up to the Passover, according to my friend's theory....Although Hanukkah and Sukkot are mentioned once in the earlier section of the gospel.

 

[koilias]

Oh yeah, one thing that attaches Yohannan's gospel to the Passover, according to several scholars, is the elements in it that relate to the Song of Songs. Which pointedly attach it more directly with Passover lectionary practices. But you probably know much more about this than me.

 

[theseed]

I agree, if all came to HaShem through HaMoshiak, there would be not need for a trib, but I don't believe this will happen. I believe that it is a matter of prophecy yet to be fullfilled. You may also not that some of Revelation alludes to Daniel.

Personally, I want to be there when those 2 Jews ressurect after 3 1/2 days of of celebration, during the middle of the tribulation.

I'm not a pure dispansationalist, but I find it intriging how many major events in Israel's history have happened on HaShem's holidays.