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What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

ContraMundum

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How do these present a problem to your way of thinking, Lulav?

To my mind, these are all saying the same basic thing- sometime after the Sabbath, when it was the first day of the week, probably around dawn when there was still darkness around, Mary M and co. went to the tomb. They don't actually contradict each other at all. John doesn't say exactly how dark it was, Luke says it's early dawn, and Matthew in his typical Hebraic way seems to saying "as it began to dawn toward the first of the week" in the same manner as the Mishna says "on the light, (or night) of day x" to mean "dawn" (and that portion is better translated as "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths")

All saying the same thing, really. Just in different ways and they appear to me to be complimentary, not contradictory.
 
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Ken Rank

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I remember reading somewhere, but I can't promise I can find this, that "as it began to dawn" could mean the coming of sunrise, the break in light, but also could be used as the point where what is left of the time of darkness is less then more... meaning, beyond the halfway point. I have personally taken the collection of accounts to mean as the dawn began but before light.
 
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ContraMundum

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Further proof that God isn't all that fussed about appearing to be hyper-Jewish. Hyper-Jewing each other is more of a modern thing, really.
 
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pat34lee

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Of "Biblical accuracy?" Yes... however... that takes us into two realms, interpretation and textual criticism.

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about changes or questionable translations here. I'm talking about areas where there is no doubt what was said: IOW, facts.

Every person named in the Scriptures lived. Every place named existed. The flood happened.

When it said that Jonah was swallowed by a fish, not a whale, that means it was a fish. Anything inconsistent is in our understanding, not in the Scriptures.
 
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pat34lee

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1 Samuel 30.12:

That is a proper use of three days. 72 hours or 3 days / 3 nights.

Gen 42.16: "And he put them all in custody for three days. 18 On the third day,

Again not proving anything. No 3 days / 3 nights. There are times for specificity, times for generalities. The same for the rest. You could use the verse that a day is as a thousand years, but that doesn't mean he was in the tomb for three thousand years.
 
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pat34lee

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It's either/or. The old month stops when the new one starts. There is no choice.


There were standards then too. Most tools in the US are checked to standards traceable back to the national standard. Back then, the Egyptians had standards for the measures they used. The Hebrews would have used these until they created their own standards in their own land.
 
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pat34lee

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I have no problem when they arrived at the tomb. It doesn't say, "as they got there, Jesus rose." He was gone already.
 
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Ken Rank

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I understand but let me share a thought. In our culture we would classify a whale as a mammal, the same group to which we belong. However, the bible would classify it as a fish because it falls into the category that includes all sea creatures, not land animals. So it can be BOTH a fish and a whale and be correct thus the debate is a moot point. So whose "facts" do we adhere to? If we adhere to the "fact" that 3 days and nights are 72 hours, do we apply that to Yeshua's statement or do we allow in the "fact" that in that day and in that area of the world, it was a cultural idiom that 3 days and nights could be any part of three consecutive days and nights and didn't need to come anywhere near 72 hours?

This is where "rightly dividing the word" really comes in. But that is a topic I don't have time for right now. Blessings!
 
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Ken Rank

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I have no problem when they arrived at the tomb. It doesn't say, "as they got there, Jesus rose." He was gone already.

It does say, it was beginning to dawn, the light was a mix and the tomb was already empty.
 
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Ken Rank

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No, sorry... you are making an assumption without a fact to back it. I am not trying to cause strife, I just know they were not exact like that, didn't have those standards in place, and I gave examples to show Scripture is not as exact which is all that matters here. WE can want this or that but Scripture is not as exact. The Hebrew did not use Egyptians measurement standards until they created their own. In fact, when they got into the land they didn't use standards. We didn't divide the foot into inches until a few hundreds years ago.
 
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Ken Rank

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It's either/or. The old month stops when the new one starts. There is no choice.

You're being stubborn, friend. We all have a bias but to grow we have to reach a point where out bias can take a back seat and we can allow the chips to fall where they may. Sundown is the end of the day... nobody debates that. And the new moon can be high enough and thick enough once or twice a year to be seen before the sun is gone. Now, I don't have an issue with this... NO ISSUE at all... I am just using this as an example that we need to move away from teachings like, "Yeshua had to be dead 72 hours to the second or he isn't messiah" which is a teaching I have heard by a guy with a fairly large following. That is nonsense... it isn't scholarship and it isn't biblical. It is Greek influences Western thought forced into a Hebraism.


Again... just to reiterate, you cannot supply a time period source of information that shows the Israelites taking Egyptians units of measurement out of Egypt. You are just trying to justify your belief without any factual backing. Sorry... just calling it like it is. Blessings to you!
 
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jerry kelso

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The main reason for that rift is that they are both following man-made religions instead of the bible. Protestant Christians may believe that they are no longer part of the Roman Catholic Church, but most of their beliefs come straight from the RCC.

pat34lee,

1. While I believe the Catholic church had much truth of doctrine they mixed their traditions of men with them.

2. Just because the Catholic church had some truth has nothing to do with being a part of the Roman Catholic Church just because Catholic means universal or that they say Peter was the pope of Rome and that is their claim to Apostolic succession. Many Catholic belief don't agree with the jewish teachings of bible so I guess they are no longer a part of Judaism or the bible beliefs at all across the board.

3. Paul said the jewish nation were blinded and Jesus said the cross was the stumbling block to them. The Catholics stumbling block is men's traditions just like the scribes and the pharisees in Jesus day and he called them hypocrites and white washed sepulchers.

4. The jews have the veil over their head as Paul stated in Corinthians because they could not stand to see the glory of the law of Moses go away.

5. Your assessment does not square with scripture or logic scriptural or otherwise. Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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ken,

1. I agree that because of gradual revelation many jews didn't understand of what Calvary was about. Even Peter didn't understand the vision of the clean and unclean and many things that Paul revealed later.
People have to understand the mechanics of the covenant of the Mosaic law and the better promises of the new covenant and how they differ and then they will begin to see the reason for the law of Moses being until the seed should come.

2. The law couldn't save nobody within itself for only Jesus could save and this is why they were perfected when we were because of Calvary.

3. The spiritual and morality of the law is always in effect just like murder. But murder had no written judgement in the antediluvian period but murder was still wrong in their conscience. Adultery was wrong under the law and they were to be stoned but today there is no stoning as a mandatory judgement. It is still wrong but we are not to be subdued as a new creation to the civil law for Timothy said that was now for the disobedient and unlawful. It doesn't do away with the spiritual or moral aspect but the mechanics change.
4. We are not under a blessing and cursing system as the old covenant.

5. The apostles understood the law and Peter said it was a yoke to them and they could not expect the gentiles to be under that even though they still were a jew living like a jew culturally. I have to go but until next time when I have more time I wanted to let you know I enjoy your posting and we'll converse some more. God bless! Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Ken,

1. Not every jew is a jew said Paul because they were not saved.

2. The lost sheep of Israel were those who were not saved.
There is no record that this was to the message of lost tribes or scattered tribes. James spoke to the scattered tribes years later.

3. Israel did reject Christ as a whole nation. Jeremiah 31:31-32 and Hebrews 8:7-13 specify that Israel had to all accept Christ. This is why Paul said the gifts and callings are without repentance and Zechariah said 2/3 will be cutoff and 1/3 will left who will believe and when they believe God will forgive their sins and Isaiah said he will make them a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children.

4. Because of the weakness of the commandment the law was abolished. This is due to the letter of the law because they had to do something to attain something. The law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man in sin Romans 7. There was nothing wrong with the morals of the law or thou shalt not but it couldn't save a person or help a person achieve doing the commandment. The commandment also had the curse of judgement or a blessing system and we do not. The civil law was done away with because it is now for the lawful and disobedient and christians of the new creation are not to be subdued for they are to be controlled by the Spirit. The ceremonial had to be done away with because the blood of bulls and goats was not sufficient to save.
The law was one whole unit and James said if you broke one you have broken all. So the morality of the law doesn't change for sin is always wrong in every age though the mechanics are different. Also, Jesus fulfilled the law but the law was abolished because of it's weakness so their is no violation or contradiction.

5. God told Israel plenty of times to repent and that is why they were always in trouble and that is why the land is referred to as sinning. In a backslidden state Israel could only make destination through repentance and repentance, forgiveness and returning is at the heart of the Torah and harmonizes together.

6. A gentile was a pagan and had no covenant and this is true but so is a jew who does not serve God but it doesn't mean he is not a jew as a race of people or a class of people and this holds true for gentiles. I am not against the feasts either. There is much to be learned and understood from them.

7. The law was forever for the jews but not under the Mosaic ethic for it was just until the seed should come. This doesn't mean when Christ was born that the law ceased for he had to fulfill it first and then it was abolished because of the new covenant had to replace it.

8. The law was the schoolmaster and now is no longer a schoolmaster for the Spirit is to teach us all things.

9. I respectfully disagree about your assessment of what is meant by weakness for the law was holy and good. The reason God has dealt with men in the different ages is for men to understand redemption's plan fully and completely. It is deeper than this but I am running out of time for I have to go to work.
The letter as an acting point was because of the judaizers trying to always get them into judaism customs as a means of salvation. Verse 20 was more about the Noahic laws and the law of Moses was preached in the synagogues is about the gentiles not having to be jews culturally or otherwise.

10. I am sorry you misunderstand about being weak but the scripture says that and that was why it was changed. I have already explained that it is not the moral and spiritual aspect that was changed but it was the mechanics of the covenant and the judgements and the system itself of a blessing and cursing that gentiles were never under. Paul stated this and Peter said why put a yoke on them that they could not bear.
I forgive you for saying to keep my mouth shut when it is your misunderstanding of what I meant by weakness of the commandment.

11. I believe we are blessed as being Abraham's seed and because we are set in heavenly and high places. Blessings of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob I have no problem with. The law came because of transgressions and was only till the seed should come.

12. The great commission was a mission for the lost sheep of Israel as recorded in the Kingdom of Heaven message but it was also for the gentiles as well. But it was a different message which was the death, burial, and resurrection message and not the kingdom message for that was left up to the father. It didn't mean they didn't have the mindset of the kingdom because of the signs like on the Day of Pentecost etc. but, it was not the same.

13. We follow the law of the Spirit because of Calvary and the law of the Spirit did away with the law of sin and death that took advantage of the Mosaic law and made them live to the frailty of sin. Read Romans 7 and 8.

14. Lusting wasn't raising the bar, but it did show their sin from the root of their heart to begin with and Jesus wanted them to understand how serious a sin it was. Jesus said if the salt had lost its savor it is no good but to be trodden down under the foot of men. This is not talking about the church of today for the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So the great commission was about the kingdom and not the death,burial, and resurrection for Peter said he wouldn't let anyone kill Christ and Jesus said, get behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God and this was after Israel had rejected him and the message of the kingdom.

I would encourage you not to jump the gun until you know the true history of what was going on. Food for thought. God bless. Jerry kelso
 
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pat34lee

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Moses was taught in the house of the Pharaoh. He knew everything that any educated Egyptian would know, including their standards of weights and measures. The Hebrews knew Egyptian measurements too, having lived there for several generations.

The scriptures are as exact as they need to be. One of the supposed errors in the bible proves this.
http://creation.com/does-the-bible-say-pi-equals-3
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Further proof that God isn't all that fussed about appearing to be hyper-Jewish. Hyper-Jewing each other is more of a modern thing, really.
True...
 
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Meowzltov

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When it said that Jonah was swallowed by a fish, not a whale, that means it was a fish.
It could mean a whale, because mankind at that time in history groups sea mammals differently. They thought a whale WAS a giant fish.
 
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Ken Rank

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The lost sheep of Israel were those who were not saved.

I will only comment on this since we are just speaking from two different places right now. I do appreciate the time you put into your post. The idea of "saved" in today's culture, and salvation in that day, are not a perfect equal match. When we see the word 'saved' we THINK eternal salvation, and while that is part of it, we have stopped there, pitched a tent, and missed the rest of the picture. If you go to Romans 9:27 for example, you will see that "all Israel will be saved." You would consider that to mean eternal salvation, but... he is quoting Isaiah 10:22 which lacks the word "saved" in English AND Hebrew. It is the word teshuvah, actually a form of it, but it means "to return." Salvation includes the idea of eternity but it ALSO includes God fulfilling all of His promises which includes calling Israel back out of the nations where He drove them and bringing them to the land that is their inheritance. This promise begins in Deut. 30:1-6 and continues throughout the words of almost every prophet culminating in some ways for me, in Hosea who tells the whole story through the names of his children. And in chapter 1 verse 11, we see that when the two houses come back together they will appoint for themselves one head.. and a united Israel has not had a king since Solomon... Yeshua will be that king!

So the lost sheep are those not saved... from the nations they were scattered into.
 
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Ken Rank

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It could mean a whale, because mankind at that time in history groups sea mammals differently. They thought a whale WAS a giant fish.

That is a point I have made. God created the LAND creatures and He created the SEA creatures. We, today... classify animals by what and how they breath or whether they are warm blooded or cold... God classified them by whether or not they lived on land or in the sea. So, a whale is classified as a sea creature with the fish. To call what Jonah was in a whale or a fish doesn't matter because both are part of the same class of creature.
 
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Ken Rank

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Pat... Moses was indeed taught in Egypt. But to make your point, you now need to show the biblical evidence that Moses taught the Israelites the Egyptian methods and you can't do that because those things don't exist in Scripture. In fact, when you go through Torah there are many commands that seem to deal with things that would differentiate the Israelite FROM the Egyptian. For example, the command to not mar the sides of the head would seem to stand opposed to the Egyptian practice of cutting lines in the beard which depicted one's social or political standing. When it comes to units of measurement, both from history AND the bible... we find that a foot was the size of a man's foot. A cubit was the size of a man forearm. An inch was the length from the joint in the thumb to the end of the thumb. And since not all people were the same size, you had variations and this does not bother anyone but the western minded person who was raised in a paradigm where things are measured down to the millimeter and beyond. We lean toward exactness, they were the kings of rounding things off.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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