What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

Ken Rank · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
Reaching out to someone at the place of their understanding is one thing, comparing the One True G-d to false gods is another, not to mention that he supposedly put these words into the mouth of the son of G-d.

You didn't mention his reference to Euripides play

"And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'…

Uta Ranke-Heinemann, in Putting Away Childish Things, page 163-9, claims there is a parallel in the Bacchae, which is approximately five hundred years older than Acts. Here, Dionysus, the persecuted god, says to King Pentheus, his persecutor: "You disregard my words of warning... and kick against the goads [pros kentra laktizein]” (line 794). Luke retains the plural form of the noun 'kentra' which, while maintaining the meter in the Bacchae, seems out of place in Acts. Not only are these words surprisingly similar, but Acts says Jesus that Jesus quoted a Greek proverb to Paul while speaking Aramaic ("in the Hebrew language"). Even the situations are similar, with Jesus as the persecuted God in Acts and Dionysus the persecuted god in the Bacchae.

He quoted external of Scripture often, I don't see a need to list them all, I was just trying to make a point FOR PAT. There are a number of times where Paul had written things like, "Have you not heard" or "has it not been written" and we have had NO CLUE what he was referencing. Now, because of the DSS, we know exactly what he was referencing and why.

As for Paul comparing YHWH to another "god?" I don't think he did that, in the case of Acts 17 these people didn't even know who they were tying to worship. Paul was showing them the true God, the one they "ignorantly" tried to worship. That isn't comparing the True God to a false one... it is sound reasoning by a man who understood what level of understanding his audience was on and spoke to them on that level.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
But according to Ken's stunning exposition (which certainly changed my mind), the three days and three nights were probably what WE would call three days and two nights.

I would hardly call it that. Case in point

1 Samuel 30

Click to expand...

.12: "He ate and was revived, for he had not eaten any food or drunk any water for three days and three nights. 13 David asked him, "To whom do you belong, and where do you come from?" He said, "I am an Egyptian, the slave of an Amalekite. My master abandoned me when I became ill three days ago. " In this case "for three days and three nights' somehow was fulfilled when his master left him 'three days ago'.

I don't see how this proved or disproves his point. The man had no food or water for three day and three nights. The reason being is that he became ill and his master abandoned him three days prior. When only day is used it can mean three 24 hours periods or two 24hour periods and at least 12 hours of the 'third day', however in this case it is defined previously by saying three days and three nights to mean 72 hours.

Gen 42.16: "And he put them all in custody for three days. 18 On the third day, Joseph said to them, "Do this and you will live, for I fear God" and they are released ON that day (from the context of verses 25-26). In this case the 'for three days' meant only 'into the third day'

This is ambiguous as well, they were in custody for three days, again two 24 hour periods and a partial of the next day. So this would not be 72 hours. But Yeshua defined his time period as three days AND three nights.

At that time they divided up the 24 hour day into 2 twelves, these periods were divided depending on the hours of light in a day. By including 'and nights' it clearly shows the whole 24 hour period. HE even gave a witness to this by citing Jonah.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Respectfully, it is not. There are 5 or 6 more examples of "3 days and nights" or "3 days" (or "7 days") being used idiomatically. ANY part of a day counts as a day... Yeshua died at 3:00PM I think on a Thursday but no matter, that left only 3 hours in the day and that counts as "Day 1." To the Western mind? No... but to the Hebraic mind it does. WE, us Westerners... we like to be exact but God isn't as exact as we might think. For example...

We have standardized time and measurement but the Scripture is not exact like that. In this case, Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days.... that is only 72 hours to the Westerner who needs to be exact. But to the Hebrew who in that day and time used that phrase idiomatically, it meant any part of 3 consecutive days.

I say all this and also say... believe what you want on this. I am not trying to push you into seeing things as I do. Just throwing out another perspective to be weighed out.

Blessings.
Ken

Snipping out what isn't relevant, no slight intended. And thank you for allowing me to believe what I want on this.

Anyway, I don't think you are looking at this in all the details. The way Yeshua put it doesn't leave any room for Hebraic or Western or Roman thought.

Let's look at this closer.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now here it shows exactly what he meant.

You are going by his death at 3 pm, the ninth hour. At that time of year around the equinox the daylight and night hours are almost the same.

But you must read it again, Yeshua wasn't saying from his death it would be three days, he was specific about how long he would be in the grave. Big difference. So you can't be counting that little bit of time before sundown when they first had to

Walk all the way from Golgatha into the city and to the Palace to get an audience with Pilate in the 'traffic' of the city during Passover.
Then go back to Golgatha and have the body taken down, Brought to the cave
Quick preparation because the Sabbath was dawning and then to have the stone rolled closed.

So as you can see it was about him being in the grave, or 'heart of the earth' and when days and nights are used together it means a full 24 hour period.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
He quoted external of Scripture often, I don't see a need to list them all, I was just trying to make a point FOR PAT. There are a number of times where Paul had written things like, "Have you not heard" or "has it not been written" and we have had NO CLUE what he was referencing. Now, because of the DSS, we know exactly what he was referencing and why.

As for Paul comparing YHWH to another "god?" I don't think he did that, in the case of Acts 17 these people didn't even know who they were tying to worship. Paul was showing them the true God, the one they "ignorantly" tried to worship. That isn't comparing the True God to a false one... it is sound reasoning by a man who understood what level of understanding his audience was on and spoke to them on that level.

Actually I was making reference to the Dionysis comment in the play, not in Acts 17. We must take into account that Luke a Greek wrote these things and many don't jive with what Paul says in his own letters, but I digress. Sorry for butting in on your post to PAT.

Ken Rank · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
I don't see how this proved or disproves his point.

I don't desire to debate you or anyone else. You seem a little combative today, looking for something to argue over, perhaps? ( I say this still not knowing you... you just might be one of those "matter of fact" types and I need to get used to it.) You're welcome to believe whatever you want, I am really fine with that! I will just add this....

It is well accepted and has been for a very long time that "3 days and nights" or "3 days" is an IDIOM that would include ANY PART of 3 days or 3 days and nights, in succession. And it's use is evident in Scripture....

Esther 4:16: "Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish."

Esther 5:1: On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

Even here, in Acts 10 we read that Luke recorded how an angel appeared to Cornelius at “about the ninth hour of the day” (approximately 3:00 p.m.; Acts 10:3). “The next day” (10:9) Peter received a vision from God and welcomed visitors sent by Cornelius. “On the next day” (10:23) Peter and the servants of Cornelius departed for Caesarea. “And the following day they entered Caesarea” where Peter taught Cornelius and his household the Gospel (10:24). At one point during Peter’s visit, Cornelius spoke about his encounter with the angel of God. Notice carefully how he began the rehearsal of the event. He stated: “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour…” (10:30, NASB). Although the event actually had occurred only 72 hours (or three literal days) earlier, Cornelius spoke of it as taking place “four days ago to this hour.”

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken, do you have a handy reference for this? I've heard of bits of this but not as you've described.

Ken Rank said:
Not really sis, I actually have been blessed to have some gaps filled. If you care....

At the time of Yeshua, there were two schools of Pharisaical thought, not one. The first was Beit (School of) Shamai, the other Beit Hillel. Shamai had a slogan, "Letter of the Law." Hillel did too, "Spirit of the Law." Hillel died in 10AD, at the time the head of the Sanhedrin and probably in the Temple when Yeshua, at 12, taught there. Incidentally, Paul's teacher, Gamaliel, was Hillel's grandson. We then now know the source of Paul speaking about "spirit of" and "letter of." It was common understanding in that day.

Anyway.... about 50 years before the Acts 15 Council, there was a debate between Shamai and Hillel. The subject was Jewish proselytes and what to expect of them. Hillel offered the notion that a proselyte should not be expected to have much understanding at first and that perhaps them refraining from fornication, idols, things strangled and blood (that gives life) was a good start and that they would learn the rest after that. Shamai agreed but added that one should have the ability to recite all 613 commandments and should be circumcised first. Shamai's position was accepted and that was the halacha from that point on. The two men who approach Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:1-2 were from the school of Shamai or adherents to his teachings because they were demanding circumcision as an initial act. When Paul, who again attended Beit Hillel, went back to Jerusalem and they convened that Council, what they did was turn back the clock to Hillel's position word for word. The 4 things were meant to be a starting point and from there they were expected to learn and apply what they learn as they grow.

*As an aside... those who read the NT and come away thinking all Pharisees were rebuked are wrong. In each and every case but once, those being rebuked held letter of the law positions that originated at Beit Shamai.

Meowzltov · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
I would hardly call it that. Case in point

I don't see how this proved or disproves his point. The man had no food or water for three day and three nights. The reason being is that he became ill and his master abandoned him three days prior. When only day is used it can mean three 24 hours periods or two 24hour periods and at least 12 hours of the 'third day', however in this case it is defined previously by saying three days and three nights to mean 72 hours.

This is ambiguous as well, they were in custody for three days, again two 24 hour periods and a martial of the next day. So this would not be 72 hours. But Yeshua defined his time period as three days AND three nights.

At that time they divided up the 24 hour day into 2 twelves, these periods were divided depending on the hours of light in a day. By including 'and nights' it clearly shows the whole 24 hour period. HE even gave a witness to this by citing Jonah.

You are missing the subtleties of the speech which look more obvious to me. For example, if you say "On the third day" and you are counting from the first day, you have 3 days and 2 nights. The only way to have 3 days and 3 nights is to begin counting in the middle of the night, which makes no sense. For example, Jesus was buried during the day. So you begin counting on the day. Rising "on the third day" later, means he would have been dead for 3 days and 2 nights. And that is exactly what you find in the gospels: he was killed on Friday before shabbat, and rose again on Sunday morning.

Ken Rank · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
Ken, do you have a handy reference for this? I've heard of bits of this but not as you've described.

Yes and no. We have purchased a school building for our congregation and as a place for classes, seminars, and conferences. We have everything from the congregational library packed and I really can't get to it for probably a couple of weeks. If you can remind me at some point, send a PM here of look me up on Facebook or something and send a note there... I will start a thread and post it all. That helped me so much understanding what the full debate was about. Really opened my eyes.

Meowzltov · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
But you must read it again, Yeshua wasn't saying from his death it would be three days, he was specific about how long he would be in the grave. Big difference.

Yes it is a big difference, and you are mistaken.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Yes and no. We have purchased a school building for our congregation and as a place for classes, seminars, and conferences. We have everything from the congregational library packed and I really can't get to it for probably a couple of weeks. If you can remind me at some point, send a PM here of look me up on Facebook or something and send a note there... I will start a thread and post it all. That helped me so much understanding what the full debate was about. Really opened my eyes.

Great, thanks!

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
Yes it is a big difference, and you are mistaken.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

How can I be mistaken when He also said

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the
Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. .

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
You are missing the subtleties of the speech which look more obvious to me. For example, if you say "On the third day" and you are counting from the first day, you have 3 days and 2 nights. The only way to have 3 days and 3 nights is to begin counting in the middle of the night, which makes no sense. For example, Jesus was buried during the day. So you begin counting on the day. Rising "on the third day" later, means he would have been dead for 3 days and 2 nights. And that is exactly what you find in the gospels: he was killed on Friday before shabbat, and rose again on Sunday morning.

No not beginning in the middle of the night.

Yeshua died on the cross at 3 pm, as I've shown by the time they went to Pilate, worked their way through the crowds choking Jerusalem and got an audience with him and then permission ( remember he had to ask for confirmation that he was already dead which probably meant sending someone out to the men in charge of the crucifixions) then to go back to Golgotha, remove the body from the cross (not an easy or quick task I would imagine) then take him to the cave of Josephs'. By the time they actually got him in the tomb it was probably sundown and in Hebrew time as you know the day begining at sundown, so from there you start counting.

He was found to be gone on Sunday morning, but he arose before that.

Ken Rank · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
No not beginning in the middle of the night.

Yeshua died on the cross at 3 pm, as I've shown by the time they went to Pilate, worked their way through the crowds chocking Jerusalem and got an audience with him and then permission ( remember he had to ask for confirmation that he was already dead which probably meant sending someone out to the men in charge of the crucifixions) then to go back to Golgotha, remove the body from the cross (not an easy or quick task I would imagine) then take him to the cave of Josephs'. By the time they actually got him in the tomb it was probably sundown and in Hebrew time as you know the day begining at sundown, so from there you start counting.

He was found to be gone on Sunday morning, but he arose before that.

I agree he raised on what we would call Sunday morning but it would be before sunrise as you stated. Thursday at 3:00PM to before sunrise on Sunday morning is 3 days and nights but not 72 hours. By the way, my post that included Acts 10 and the "4 days" that is really about 72 hours, can you address that? Thanks!

Meowzltov · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
He was found to be gone on Sunday morning, but he arose before that.

So you think he rose in the middle of the night? 2 days and 2 nights? Hmmmm

Check these verses out, fascinating stuff.
Matthew records Christ's resurrection as occurring at the same time as the women visiting:

Matthew 28:1,2 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I agree he raised on what we would call Sunday morning but it would be before sunrise as you stated. Thursday at 3:00PM to before sunrise on Sunday morning is 3 days and nights but not 72 hours. By the way, my post that included Acts 10 and the "4 days" that is really about 72 hours, can you address that? Thanks!

You keep reiterating 3pm but that is not what Yeshua said to count the time from! He said in the grave or belly of the earth for three days and three nights.

From Mark
And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.......................And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour..............................And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost......................................

....................And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

From Mark in another place to determine his usage of 'even' 32 And at even, when the sun did set

Crucified on Wednesday
Put in the grave at the end of Wednesday/beginning of Thursday
All night and day of Thursday - 24 hours
All night and day of Friday - 24 hours
All night and day of Saturday - 24 hours
Arose at the end of Shabbat, probably during 'havdallah time' the extra hour given over to Shabbat.

Meowzltov · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
Arose at the end of Shabbat, probably during 'havdallah time' the extra hour given over to Shabbat.

Mark 16:9 After Jesus rose from the dead early on Sunday morning, the first person who saw him was Mary Magdalene, the woman from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
By the way, my post that included Acts 10 and the "4 days" that is really about 72 hours, can you address that? Thanks!

Gosh, I just came from the Theology forum and reading some of the posts by a self proclaimed quasi knowledgable poster and had deja vu when I saw this. (Open Heart, remind you of anyone? )

Are you speaking of this? You do have to realize that with three of us posting at the same time some posts get missed and this new system (new to us, not you) inserts the posts in a different way and is confusing at times.

Ken Rank said:
Even here, in Acts 10 we read that Luke recorded how an angel appeared to Cornelius at “about the ninth hour of the day” (approximately 3:00 p.m.; Acts 10:3). “The next day” (10:9) Peter received a vision from God and welcomed visitors sent by Cornelius. “On the next day” (10:23) Peter and the servants of Cornelius departed for Caesarea. “And the following day they entered Caesarea” where Peter taught Cornelius and his household the Gospel (10:24). At one point during Peter’s visit, Cornelius spoke about his encounter with the angel of God. Notice carefully how he began the rehearsal of the event. He stated: “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour…” (10:30, NASB). Although the event actually had occurred only 72 hours (or three literal days) earlier, Cornelius spoke of it as taking place “four days ago to this hour.”

OK, let's go through this together.

Cornelius has a vision on, let's say on a Monday at 3pm
At around 4 pm he calls in his servants, explains what he saw and heard and then sends them to Joppa. Now he is in Ceasaria but we aren't sure which one, the difference in the distance could be as much as 60 miles, however we see them arrive the next day.

He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon.....................And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier 8 And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

[URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/10-9.htm']9 <1161> On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:[/URL]

On Tuesday around noon, the servants are coming close to Joppa meanwhile Peter goes up to the roof to pray.
After praying and having his vision while contemplating it

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

So let's say the vision and the men finding the house brought it to around 1pm Tuesday, Peter hears their story and then

23 Then called he them in, and lodged [them]. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

they stayed overnight with Peter and left the next day. Thursday

They must have stayed overnight somewhere because next we read

2 4 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. Friday

[URL='http://biblehub.com/acts/10-30.htm']30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house[/URL]

So I am getting four days here, from Monday at 3pm to Friday when they arrived.

Lulav · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
Mark 16:9 After Jesus rose from the dead early on Sunday morning, the first person who saw him was Mary Magdalene, the woman from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Well like I said before, since none of the gospels match up you can take choice as to what fits your theology.

Matthew 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.

ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων

Luke: But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,… 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.…

John : 1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Ken Rank · Jun 25, 2015

Lulav said:
You keep reiterating 3pm but that is not what Yeshua said to count the time from! He said in the grave or belly of the earth for three days and three nights.

Respectfully, I think you take every word in English literally and as if that was the word spoken at the time. We are 2000 years and 3-4 languages after the fact. Yeshua said, "If you destroy this temple (his body) in three days I will raise it." I have shown multiple examples of "3 days" being used not in the manner we tend to use it. In fact Christian and Jewish scholars for ages have known this is idiomatic. I have shown the bible use the words "4 days" and be speaking of basically 72 hours. If you don't accept those as fact, which is fine you certainly have that right, then we cannot continue discussion (on this) because our definitions do not align in a way that will allow us to communicate in a manner that will allow for a joint conclusion. Not a big deal... nobody said we had to agree on everything.

That said... I do want to point this out and leave it alone...

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

You have taken this to mean his body, we count from the time his body reaches the grave, according to your method of reckoning. But the body is not relevant in that sense, the soul is.

Acts 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.

The above is a quote from Psalm 16:10... his nephesh (soul) in sheol (hades, hell, grave). You're counting from the time his body is buried, but his reference to Jonah, along with Acts 2:27, show we count from the time he passed. "My holy one" is messiah, and his nephesh, not his body, is what is mentioned in the prophesy.

Shalom!
Ken

ContraMundum · Jun 25, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I can't answer for what others think or say on this forum... I haven't been here long, know few people, and tend to stick in just a few boards. You're probably correct as I often see folks swinging with the pendulum too far to one side or the other. I try to be balanced but I also allow the chips to fall where they need to and adjust to the facts, not make them adjust to me. I do agree with your point about other cultures... Paul quotes from a Greek play at least once, perhaps twice. Yet nearly 1/3rd of the "NT" are quotes of inferences from the Tanach... so the weight of context remains Hebrew. That also said, God did promise to speak to His people in other languages (Isaiah 28:11) and so I have no issue with that thought either. Of course He would speak to His people in every nation and every tongue... He scattered His people to these places. I lay off rabbinic opinion (will consider it if it is a worthy one) but our groups and those we associate with are not your average Hebrew Roots/Messianic congregation(s). Maybe one day you can come for a visit. Gotta run...have some work to do.

Thanks for the invite!

What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

Well-Known Member

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Well-Known Member

Y'shua is His Name

Freylekher Yid

Well-Known Member

Freylekher Yid

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Well-Known Member

Freylekher Yid

Y'shua is His Name

Freylekher Yid

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Well-Known Member

Messianic Jewish Christian

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency