What Do Feminists Want From Relationships?

[McScribe]

Feminists say they want more equality. I'd like a picture of this. For example, in a world of this feminist equality how exactly do you:

1. Date. How do you ask someone out? How do you know when it is okay to be flirtatious? How do you express attraction? How do you do these things without it being sexual harassment?

2. Have children. Are children really just the woman's? What do they expect from men when it comes to raising children?

3. Expect to resolve differences and disagreements in a way that is fair for both parties in a marriage?

You see these questions are important. They cannot just be determined on an individual basis. Not when there can be serious legal consequences. It's not enough to determine what is wrong, we also have to know what is good.

 

[Sailor_A]

Feminists say they want more equality. I'd like a picture of this. For example, in a world of this feminist equality how exactly do you:

1. Date. How do you ask someone out? How do you know when it is okay to be flirtatious? How do you express attraction? How do you do these things without it being sexual harassment?

2. Have children. Are children really just the woman's? What do they expect from men when it comes to raising children?

3. Expect to resolve differences and disagreements in a way that is fair for both parties in a marriage?

You see these questions are important. They cannot just be determined on an individual basis. Not when there can be serious legal consequences. It's not enough to determine what is wrong, we also have to know what is good.

You should know that not all feminists are the same. I don't go by any particular doctrine. I believe God loves both men and women and so believe both men and women should be respected and allowed to use their talents . I don't believe in forcing people into roles because they are of a particular gender.

1. I only like my husband to ask me out on dates . It's ok to be flirtatious with him. Use your imagination. In professional places I avoid making sexual advances with others...?

2. I don't have any children yet. It takes both mother and father to make the child and we are responsible for them till they reach maturity. I really would want my husband to take an active part in child-rearing should we have them. If we both can not love and provide for a child raising them in God then we ought not to have them.

3. Usually defer them to the one with the greatest subject knowledge. Both parties must feel like their opinion is respected in the marriage but ultimately we both want the best not to win. As long as it does not go against biblical beliefs I often defer to him. So far nothing we couldn't solve this way has come up.

Um ok...

 

[Conservativation]

Actually all feminists are the same at the core of things, there are some differences on the margins. Not that any feminist would ever admit it, even in the face of unequivocal black and white evidence, but there is one thing that is true about every feminist.....in a given scenario....whatever favors the woman is what the feminist sees as the best thing.

Otherwise, I challenge you, list me 3 policy positions, ideas, opinions of feminists that seek to level the playing field in an area where women currently have the upper hand by advocating FOR men.....see, that would overtly prove they are for equality. In fact tell me just one OBJECTIVE idea of feminism where men benefit, meaning not that men come out on top.....just where men BENEFIT. I said objective because the pat feminist answer is that men will benefit from all of feminism....if thats the case it should be very simple to plop down one specific example.

The other thing is, feminists cannot describe a world where they can say, done, mission accomplished, much like the last vestiges of race baiting advocators who gin up racial acrimony under the banner of eliminating racism, feminists will NEVER be done because its an organism that thrives on victim status. The organism has the will to live now, and will not go away.

Also, why say something like "I dont believe in forcing people into roles based on gender"

Please list me 2 examples in the U.S. of how someone is forced into a role....please be mindful the meaning of the word forced, and give me the example.

Your answer to number 1 makes no sense. he was OBVIOUSLY asking about single people, this tricky kind of answer is a "skill" feminists mastered. Avoiding the question.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I think feminists tend to want to be assertive and successful professionally and in their personal relationships. In doing this they sacrifice the power they have as a demure woman. Its like trading a sniper rifle for a hand grenade. Not much of a deal for them, but it is what they are taught to do these days so many of them do it.

 

[McScribe]

You should know that not all feminists are the same. I don't go by any particular doctrine. I believe God loves both men and women and so believe both men and women should be respected and allowed to use their talents . I don't believe in forcing people into roles because they are of a particular gender.

1. I only like my husband to ask me out on dates . It's ok to be flirtatious with him. Use your imagination. In professional places I avoid making sexual advances with others...?

2. I don't have any children yet. It takes both mother and father to make the child and we are responsible for them till they reach maturity. I really would want my husband to take an active part in child-rearing should we have them. If we both can not love and provide for a child raising them in God then we ought not to have them.

3. Usually defer them to the one with the greatest subject knowledge. Both parties must feel like their opinion is respected in the marriage but ultimately we both want the best not to win. As long as it does not go against biblical beliefs I often defer to him. So far nothing we couldn't solve this way has come up.

Um ok...

Forgive me but in a way these responses are part of the confusion for me. You see when a feminist who has a good relationship with her husband talks about that good relationship...mutual respect, loving tenderness...that is simply a good relationship. But it doesn't really explain how to pursue or establish one.

So my questions remain. And saying "all feminists are different" is also unhelpful. Properly all Christians are different but can answer the main questions about ethics fairly quickly. However generally the template for a loving Christian marriage can be found in say Ephesians 5, right? But generally courtship follows the rules of the society Christians live in. So the 60s and 50s are over, we don't have arranged marriages anymore. What are we left with? Internet dating?

 

[hijklmnop]

Feminists say they want more equality. I'd like a picture of this. For example, in a world of this feminist equality how exactly do you:

1. Date. How do you ask someone out? How do you know when it is okay to be flirtatious? How do you express attraction? How do you do these things without it being sexual harassment?


2. Have children. Are children really just the woman's? What do they expect from men when it comes to raising children?

3. Expect to resolve differences and disagreements in a way that is fair for both parties in a marriage?


You see these questions are important. They cannot just be determined on an individual basis. Not when there can be serious legal consequences. It's not enough to determine what is wrong, we also have to know what is good.

1. If you want to ask someone out, ask someone out! Gender shouldn't matter.

It's okay to be flirtatious when you and the person you're approaching are both single, and if you try once and get an uninterested or "leave me alone" vibe, respectfully take the hint and back off.

You can flirt/ask someone out without it being sexual harassment when you don't do it at work or when in a balance of power situation (teacher/student, doctor/patient for example), and when you back off as soon as you get a negative signal.

Seriously, it's not that complicated. Just be respectful!

2. I've never seen anyone on here say or even imply that children are just the woman's. Of course they aren't just the woman's. I expect an equal partnership from my husband when it comes to raising the children. As in, we both discuss and strive to agree on what's best for the kids, and work together to make that happen. We may do different things sometimes according to our differing strengths/abilities, but our dedication to raising the kids to the best of our abilities is equal.

3. By regularly discussing each of our needs/desires and working together to do our best to meet each other's needs and meet in the middle when necessary.

 

[McScribe]

It's actually irritating when you get this "it's not that complicated" attitude. Like you should just KNOW somehow. Respect is something that is socially demonstrated by particular actions. And what exactly is a leave me alone vibe?

 

[hijklmnop]

It's actually irritating when you get this "it's not that complicated" attitude. Like you should just KNOW somehow. Respect is something that is socially demonstrated by particular actions. And what exactly is a leave me alone vibe?

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. That IS obnoxious.

i don't know how to describe a "leave me alone" vibe, I just know I'm really good at giving it. Haha! I guess it's just not reciprocating the flirtation...giving quick, short answers, avoiding eye contact, mentioning a significant other. Etc....

 

[McScribe]

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. That IS obnoxious.

i don't know how to describe a "leave me alone" vibe, I just know I'm really good at giving it. Haha! I guess it's just not reciprocating the flirtation...giving quick, short answers, avoiding eye contact, mentioning a significant other. Etc....

When I used to lead youth group I encouraged the young women to be direct when they would mention some guy who wouldnt leave them alone. To clarify if they didn't want to go out they should just say so. That it's okay to say no. Because honestly, sometimes the signals are hard to read. Some other woman says "Joan really likes you" and you say "Who?!" it needs more than a vibe.

To clarify further sometimes it can be really obscure. Like someone speaks to a supervisor who then says "She says you were hitting on her." and so you realize that you should be careful about what woman you say something complimentary to. (I'm talking something like those are nice shoes or I like your hairdo)

Thanks for the apology btw.

 

[Sailor_A]

Actually all feminists are the same at the core of things, there are some differences on the margins. Not that any feminist would ever admit it, even in the face of unequivocal black and white evidence, but there is one thing that is true about every feminist.....in a given scenario....whatever favors the woman is what the feminist sees as the best thing.

Actually that is news to me. I want what is best for both men and women which is why I also care about father's rights. Actually my husband and I both care about such matters. Things like longer paternity leave and male role models for children in primary school is something we'd both like to advocate but we are young and have not done all that much yet to be honest. I've volunteered for a children's charity over here but not done anything political about my beliefs in women's and men's rights. There is no word as "equalist" so I just use feminist for women's right and when asked about men am for that too. I also don't think men should be typecast.

Otherwise, I challenge you, list me 3 policy positions, ideas, opinions of feminists that seek to level the playing field in an area where women currently have the upper hand by advocating FOR men.....see, that would overtly prove they are for equality.

I told you I don't hold to any particular doctrine. I use my own brain.

In fact tell me just one OBJECTIVE idea of feminism where men benefit, meaning not that men come out on top.....just where men BENEFIT. I said objective because the pat feminist answer is that men will benefit from all of feminism....if thats the case it should be very simple to plop down one specific example.

I think men could benefit from ideas that women are not the only ones who can care for children. They deserve to spend time caring for offspring and bonding with babies. That is something my husband feels strongly about also. He is from Sweden and things are a little different there.

The other thing is, feminists cannot describe a world where they can say, done, mission accomplished, much like the last vestiges of race baiting advocators who gin up racial acrimony under the banner of eliminating racism, feminists will NEVER be done because its an organism that thrives on victim status. The organism has the will to live now, and will not go away.

Projecting much? I am a black female and I do believe racism and sexism may never completely be eliminated but I don't believe in having a thought police. Saying you support equal rights does not mean you feel you are a victim.

Also, why say something like "I dont believe in forcing people into roles based on gender"

Because I believe it . I'm glad I can study physics and go into almost any career I wish and the same with my husband. I'm glad I'm not expected to be a housewife or he the breadwinner. I'm glad society doesn't make it impossible for us to do as we wish.

Please list me 2 examples in the U.S. of how someone is forced into a role....please be mindful the meaning of the word forced, and give me the example.

I'm not American. I don't think anyone is forced in America and nor did I say so. I can say I believe in interracial marriage without having to list 2 examples in my country where people are not allowed to do it.

Your answer to number 1 makes no sense. he was OBVIOUSLY asking about single people, this tricky kind of answer is a "skill" feminists mastered. Avoiding the question.

Then perhaps it should not have been posted on the "married couples" forum? Conservation I have no animosity towards you but I think you have so for me and others you feel disagree with you. If I am incorrect please forgive me.

 

[Sailor_A]

Forgive me but in a way these responses are part of the confusion for me. You see when a feminist who has a good relationship with her husband talks about that good relationship...mutual respect, loving tenderness...that is simply a good relationship. But it doesn't really explain how to pursue or establish one.

I am afraid I am careful with advice. I didn't actively go out and pursue a relationship when I met my husband and I'm sorry I can not be of more help. Maybe what you can take from this is that people who call themselves feminists can have a good relationship. My husband calls himself a feminist also lol.

So my questions remain. And saying "all feminists are different" is also unhelpful.

I'm very sorry, that is not my intention. It was merely my observation.

Properly all Christians are different but can answer the main questions about ethics fairly quickly.

Indeed, however I am careful before speaking on behalf of a whole group many in fact would not view my husband or myself as feminists.

However generally the template for a loving Christian marriage can be found in say Ephesians 5, right? But generally courtship follows the rules of the society Christians live in. So the 60s and 50s are over, we don't have arranged marriages anymore. What are we left with? Internet dating?

What exactly are you asking? Please be specific. I agree with the template for a loving Christian marriage but perhaps not every interpretation. No I wasn't courted as in the 50's or 60's but I doubt I'd have married by husband if it was. I'm not sure I'd want an arranged marriage but neither my parents, grandparents or great grandparents had one. I've heard internet dating works for some.

Personally I met my wonderful husband in a Christian bookstore . I was so shy and a bit of a hermit but determined to go out that day. He took the last copy of the book I wanted and I was just staring at him.

 

[hijklmnop]

I think feminists tend to want to be assertive and successful professionally and in their personal relationships. In doing this they sacrifice the power they have as a demure woman. Its like trading a sniper rifle for a hand grenade. Not much of a deal for them, but it is what they are taught to do these days so many of them do it.

Yes, I do want to be assertive and successful personally and professionally. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I have been a lot happier personally since making this shift. I think perhaps you are confusing the positive qualities of assertiveness and confidence with aggressiveness, as it seems some on here think feminism is all about. Historically, women have not been able to possess much power when they are fixated on being "demure" as opposed to assertive and confident. You know that quote about well-behaved women seldom making history? Thank goodness for us that some were able to step out of the box of what is good "feminine" behaviour and stand up for themselves and all women. My daughter is as girly as girly gets, but you bet I encourage her to stand up for herself and others and not be "demure" in the face of injustice.

 

[Conservativation]

Actually that is news to me. I want what is best for both men and women which is why I also care about father's rights. Actually my husband and I both care about such matters. Things like longer paternity leave and male role models for children in primary school is something we'd both like to advocate but we are young and have not done all that much yet to be honest. I've volunteered for a children's charity over here but not done anything political about my beliefs in women's and men's rights. There is no word as "equalist" so I just use feminist for women's right and when asked about men am for that too. I also don't think men should be typecast.


I told you I don't hold to any particular doctrine. I use my own brain.



I think men could benefit from ideas that women are not the only ones who can care for children. They deserve to spend time caring for offspring and bonding with babies. That is something my husband feels strongly about also. He is from Sweden and things are a little different there.



Projecting much? I am a black female and I do believe racism and sexism may never completely be eliminated but I don't believe in having a thought police. Saying you support equal rights does not mean you feel you are a victim.

I don't get the "projecting much" comment. I dont like that when these casual toos outs of pop psychology words are used sarcastically....but thats just me. In this case I have no idea how I could be projecting, you utterly lost me. You bet racism and sexism will never be fully eliminated, and to be honest you sound very reasonable. Im sorry, you may be that exception who can actually carry a conversation. Hat tip your way.



Because I believe it . I'm glad I can study physics and go into almost any career I wish and the same with my husband. I'm glad I'm not expected to be a housewife or he the breadwinner. I'm glad society doesn't make it impossible for us to do as we wish.

Good then the comment above and below beg the question, why state that you dont believe in something when that something is no where in evidence. its like randomly proclaiming a belief in something that's actually already sorted and obvious. That's what i mean about feminism, its got to have something to be against, even if that matter has been dealt with.


I'm not American. I don't think anyone is forced in America and nor did I say so. I can say I believe in interracial marriage without having to list 2 examples in my country where people are not allowed to do it.

You didn't say anyone was forced, you said you dont believe in people being forced. Again, if no one is being forced, why say it? I could make all kinds of statements about inequalities that once did exist according to race for example, I could say "I dont believe in ______________"....what would be the point in my saying so, UNLESS it was to imply that that thing was still in evidence. Its a proclamation of the evident.



Then perhaps it should not have been posted on the "married couples" forum? Conservation I have no animosity towards you but I think you have so for me and others you feel disagree with you. If I am incorrect please forgive me.

Its the fact that its posted in the married Christian section that makes it obvious he was asking about single people. Unless its common that a Christian man asks openly for advice on Christian married men expressing dating interest in people that are not his spouse.

I have no animosity to anyONE. I have a powerful animosity towards feminism in most of its forms. As I said, it appears you are not locked down so tight as to be unable to converse about it.

 

[McScribe]

I would like to say before I go on that I appreciate the civil tone of the responses. I don't expect agreement but I do appreciate civility. It makes it easier to deal with the subject matter instead of the other person as the cause of disagreement.

Sailor A, you and your husband had kind of a happy accident in meeting. So you have no experience personally with dating then?

Part of why I'm starting with basic questions about dating is that when it comes down to it sometimes I encounter violent disagreements here with women claiming to be feminists to the extent that I wonder what the basis of a relationship feminists would approve of is.

 

[Sailor_A]

"I don't get the "projecting much" comment. I dont like that when these casual toos outs of pop psychology words are used sarcastically....but thats just me. In this case I have no idea how I could be projecting, you utterly lost me. You bet racism and sexism will never be fully eliminated, and to be honest you sound very reasonable. Im sorry, you may be that exception who can actually carry a conversation. Hat tip your way. "

Perhaps I used the incorrect phrase. Sorry. I simply met that you assign thoughts and values to me which are not my own but rather your own impression of what you think I think. If that makes any sense at all. In any case I'm sorry for the confusion. I don't really keep up with much psychology even poor psychology. Really it is amazing how many people one can hold a conversation with when one is civil. I don't particularly think I'm an exception black woman who can carry on a converstaion.

"Good then the comment above and below beg the question, why state that you dont believe in something when that something is no where in evidence. its like randomly proclaiming a belief in something that's actually already sorted and obvious. That's what i mean about feminism, its got to have something to be against, even if that matter has been dealt with."

I may believe in equal rights but there are others who don't and there are times when it needs defending. Laws are subject to change and simply obeying without undersatnding and reasoning the logic or lack thereof behind them is a dangerous things because when your rights are challenged you can not defend them. Believe it or not but I have had discussions with people who think I should go back to my country of origin despite being born here. People who think I should not have gone to university, should be having babies now, should be married to a different husband because he is white. They have no authority legally but that does not stop me wanting to discuss the ethics of their questions. Does this make sense? I apologise if it does not.

"You didn't say anyone was forced, you said you dont believe in people being forced. Again, if no one is being forced, why say it? I could make all kinds of statements about inequalities that once did exist according to race for example, I could say "I dont believe in ______________"....what would be the point in my saying so, UNLESS it was to imply that that thing was still in evidence. Its a proclamation of the evident."

I said it because I believe it. Maybe because later in my teens I travelled to the middle east with my parents and saw a reality where women truly could be forced into gender roles. Maybe because there are Christian men and women who advocate such things. Maybe because I also thought it was related to the topic at hand.

"Its the fact that its posted in the married Christian section that makes it obvious he was asking about single people. Unless its common that a Christian man asks openly for advice on Christian married men expressing dating interest in people that are not his spouse."

If I truly wanted to find out what single feminists wanted I would ask in the singles forum but maybe that is just me. Asking about people is hardly ever as useful as asking them themselves which I hoped I pointed out somewhat lightheartedly in my answer. I apologise to the op for trying and failing to use my sense of humour.

"I have no animosity to anyONE. I have a powerful animosity towards feminism in most of its forms. As I said, it appears you are not locked down so tight as to be unable to converse about it."

I'm glad to hear that. It might be wise to make sure you know what the person with whom you are discussing actually thinks. For all you know it may not be a form of which you dissaprove. But a discussion forum is there so we can discuss things and see other ideas/opinions. There will be people who think they are just as correct as you are with different ideas. Being civil and reasonable may help one understand the argument more. I hope the same is true for yourself. Tell me, what forms of feminism do you hold animosity to and why?

 

[Sailor_A]

Sailor A, you and your husband had kind of a happy accident in meeting. So you have no experience personally with dating then?

Part of why I'm starting with basic questions about dating is that when it comes down to it sometimes I encounter violent disagreements here with women claiming to be feminists to the extent that I wonder what the basis of a relationship feminists would approve of is.

Well I didn't just marry him then and there. I hadn't dated other guys before mainly because I doubted they truly liked me and I didn't think they truly respected women.

As a feminist, I would approve of a relationship where both husband and wife respect and love the other. He is my equal and we both do what is best for the marriage. What kind of disagreements do you have with feminists about relationships. Maybe if I knew I could offer far more helpful answers.

 

[McScribe]

Well I didn't just marry him then and there. I hadn't dated other guys before mainly because I doubted they truly liked me and I didn't think they truly respected women.

As a feminist, I would approve of a relationship where both husband and wife respect and love the other. He is my equal and we both do what is best for the marriage. What kind of disagreements do you have with feminists about relationships. Maybe if I knew I could offer far more helpful answers.

Touchiness about talking about sex comes up. Like not specific details of course but talking about attitudes and so on...it's as though anything that isn't purely about emotions about the relationship itself is off the table. As though being romantic and hoping for sex with your spouse is like a plot rather than expressing love and devotion through sex.

Another thing that comes up is female displeasure, as though it is a feminist issue rather than a personal one, as though there is never any mutual disagreement but only women trying hard and men screwing up. A woman on here for example has said that she believes that women have been trying in relationships for a long time and now it's men's turn.

 

[Conservativation]

Perhaps I used the incorrect phrase. Sorry. I simply met that you assign thoughts and values to me which are not my own but rather your own impression of what you think I think. If that makes any sense at all. In any case I'm sorry for the confusion. I don't really keep up with much psychology even poor psychology. Really it is amazing how many people one can hold a conversation with when one is civil. I don't particularly think I'm an exception black woman who can carry on a converstaion.



I may believe in equal rights but there are others who don't and there are times when it needs defending. Laws are subject to change and simply obeying without undersatnding and reasoning the logic or lack thereof behind them is a dangerous things because when your rights are challenged you can not defend them. Believe it or not but I have had discussions with people who think I should go back to my country of origin despite being born here. People who think I should not have gone to university, should be having babies now, should be married to a different husband because he is white. They have no authority legally but that does not stop me wanting to discuss the ethics of their questions. Does this make sense? I apologise if it does not.



I said it because I believe it. Maybe because later in my teens I travelled to the middle east with my parents and saw a reality where women truly could be forced into gender roles. Maybe because there are Christian men and women who advocate such things. Maybe because I also thought it was related to the topic at hand.



If I truly wanted to find out what single feminists wanted I would ask in the singles forum but maybe that is just me. Asking about people is hardly ever as useful as asking them themselves which I hoped I pointed out somewhat lightheartedly in my answer. I apologise to the op for trying and failing to use my sense of humour.



I'm glad to hear that. It might be wise to make sure you know what the person with whom you are discussing actually thinks. For all you know it may not be a form of which you dissaprove. But a discussion forum is there so we can discuss things and see other ideas/opinions. There will be people who think they are just as correct as you are with different ideas. Being civil and reasonable may help one understand the argument more. I hope the same is true for yourself. Tell me, what forms of feminism do you hold animosity to and why?

Has nothing to do with being an exceptional black woman, or woman of any color or race. It has to do, as McScribe indicates, with here, if you had some history here (begs the question why we subject ourselves to it) by now, in these 3 exchanges of ideas, we'd be experiencing venom and vitriol OR we'd be off on one of 3 or 4 tangents that they seem wedded to.


Again, do not mistake me for wanting to be right. I can see how that would come across with new and limited exposure, but stick around long enough and you will learn that its not about being right at all. its about the very simple human desire to discuss what is being said about the topic at hand.

All we want is to have our own words reflected back in responses, as you are doing, as we figure this out, as we suggest then modify understandings, and we figure what we meant.....by asking and clarifying. It truly is amazing for me, like a back lit 50's technicolor movie with the "aaahhhhhhhh" music, that someone who I may disagree with is not accusing me of the most outlandish beliefs, assuming the absolute worst, and wrecking any timy chance of having a conversation.

Yea, the middle east, good example, I travel a lot in SE Asia, some there too, I dont know where you or your family are from but maybe there too, absolutely granted, and therefore I afford you a massive amount of leeway and credibility when you raise these important issues.

I wish I could explain more, but I dont want to risk making that what the thread becomes. Id ask maybe that, if you think you have a reasonable idea whats being said here, and please accept at face value it isnt about being right, but simply being heard as intended, then when you see (and you will see, be sure) how it goes, speak up. There are some who think threads go sideways because of simple incivility, but that's too simple, as you will see with a few weeks.

 

[Athene]

Feminists say they want more equality. I'd like a picture of this. For example, in a world of this feminist equality how exactly do you:

1. Date. How do you ask someone out? How do you know when it is okay to be flirtatious? How do you express attraction? How do you do these things without it being sexual harassment?

2. Have children. Are children really just the woman's? What do they expect from men when it comes to raising children?

3. Expect to resolve differences and disagreements in a way that is fair for both parties in a marriage?

You see these questions are important. They cannot just be determined on an individual basis. Not when there can be serious legal consequences. It's not enough to determine what is wrong, we also have to know what is good.

As a rule of thumb, when talking to an unfamiliar woman don't grab her breasts and ask if you can engage in intercourse right there and then.

When you have children, don't sit on the x-box all day and yell your wife to keep the bleeping bleeping kids quiet because you can't hear what your team are telling you and you have to get the mission finished.

When having an argument with your wife, don't crack her one across the face.

hth

 

[McScribe]

As a rule of thumb, when talking to an unfamiliar woman don't grab her breasts and ask if you can engage in intercourse right there and then.

When you have children, don't sit on the x-box all day and yell your wife to keep the bleeping bleeping kids quiet because you can't hear what your team are telling you and you have to get the mission finished.

When having an argument with your wife, don't crack her one across the face.

hth

Dreamer and Sailor: also note the above sarcastic remarks.