What do Catholics think about...

[Hoonbaba]

...this page:

http://www.carm.org/catholic/muslims.htm

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Avila]

Interesting point.... I'm not sure I'd really trust much content from that page, though.... I mean, its link to the catechism checked out, but I believe the page's interpretation is skewed. It seems to focus too much on how the Catholic Church doesn't say that the Muslims have to become Christian in order to be saved. It is saying that there is a tiny glimmer of the Truth in the Muslim faith and that glimmer needs to be recognized. It's not advocating Islam. Other parts of the page try to compare Catholicism with cults - saying "we are just revealing the truth, so Catholics shouldn't get mad at us because of what we say".

 

[Wolseley]

Well, speaking for myself, I'd say that CARM is the last outfit to be accusing anybody else of of "faulty perceptions", since their concepts of Catholicism are more than a tad skewed.

But to answer their argument, I'd say simply that Jews and Muslims both worship the same God that we do.

The Jews call Him Yahweh.

The Muslims call Him Allah.

And we call Him God the Father.

True, we understand that the Father is also one Person of the Trinity, also including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; and true, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all have different perceptions of God; but that doesn't make Him a different God for all three faiths.

Catholics believe that while you may be in a deficient salvational situation as a non-Christian, you can be saved if you truly believe that your perception of God is correct, even if you're not a Christian.

Muslims believe that Christians and Jews, while having a skewed perception of God, are nevertheless "People of the Book" and are entitled to spend eternity in a place of everlasting bliss.

Jews believe that they have a covenant with God; but that God also made a different covenant with the Christians, and yet another one with the Muslims. He's God; who are we to tell Him He can't make as many different types of covenats with as many different types of people as He chooses?

My perception is that the narrow, legalistic concept that says, "You must believe exactly, precisely as I do, or you're eternally damned" is primarily a Fundamentalist phenominon, be it Fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.

Fortunately, God is not a Fundamentalist.

 

[PrinceJeff]

Nor Catholic, Baptist, Church Of Christ, Unitarian, Lutheran, Calvary Chapel, Methodist, and so on and so forth. Void where prohibited by law.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Well, speaking for myself, I'd say that CARM is the last outfit to be accusing anybody else of of "faulty perceptions", since their concepts of Catholicism are more than a tad skewed.

But to answer their argument, I'd say simply that Jews and Muslims both worship the same God that we do.

The Jews call Him Yahweh.

The Muslims call Him Allah.

And we call Him God the Father.

True, we understand that the Father is also one Person of the Trinity, also including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; and true, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all have different perceptions of God; but that doesn't make Him a different God for all three faiths.

Catholics believe that while you may be in a deficient salvational situation as a non-Christian, you can be saved if you truly believe that your perception of God is correct, even if you're not a Christian.

Muslims believe that Christians and Jews, while having a skewed perception of God, are nevertheless "People of the Book" and are entitled to spend eternity in a place of everlasting bliss.

Jews believe that they have a covenant with God; but that God also made a different covenant with the Christians, and yet another one with the Muslims. He's God; who are we to tell Him He can't make as many different types of covenats with as many different types of people as He chooses?

My perception is that the narrow, legalistic concept that says, "You must believe exactly, precisely as I do, or you're eternally damned" is primarily a Fundamentalist phenominon, be it Fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.

Fortunately, God is not a Fundamentalist.

Hi Wolseley,

I honestly find that a bit frightening. I guess it has to do with my fundamentalist upbringing, but I am open to the possibility that God can and will do things however he wants. But it's very clear to me that Jesus is the only way to the father:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Please don't forget, though, that Jews are God's Chosen People. They are STILL Chosen, God doesn't break His promises! (if He did, we'd be in a world of trouble, right?) The ultimate question of the status of the Jews' salvation is left to God. I personally don't go there, except to reinterate, that the Jews are God's Chosen People. A lot of people wish to kick Jews out of the picture with the NT statement that the Old Covenant is gone, the New Covenant has taken its place. My position is that God doesn't break promises, and since He made one with the Jews, then He will take care of it.

I make a lot of enemies by pointing out that Ishmael was ALSO Abraham's son, and therefore, the Arabs are an offshoot of God's Chosen People. Oh, my, you'd think I was preaching heresy on the highest order with that! But God made a special promise to Ishmael after Sarah turned Hagar and her son out to the desert to die. So, my point is that again, it's up to God. I'm not going to condemn Jew or Arab, but leave the entire question for God to decide.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

I am reading Exodus right now and there is NO doubt in my mind that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he has a plan for them.

If you look at the coversation between God and Moses when God was calling Moses to lead - the love and faith the God has for us is incredible. He has heard his peoples cries and is deeply concerned about them - and of course US!

God has a plan for the Muslim, but that his business and not mine.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Please don't forget, though, that Jews are God's Chosen People. They are STILL Chosen, God doesn't break His promises! (if He did, we'd be in a world of trouble, right?) The ultimate question of the status of the Jews' salvation is left to God. I personally don't go there, except to reinterate, that the Jews are God's Chosen People. A lot of people wish to kick Jews out of the picture with the NT statement that the Old Covenant is gone, the New Covenant has taken its place. My position is that God doesn't break promises, and since He made one with the Jews, then He will take care of it.

Hi VOW,

I think you're forgetting something:

I see the book of Revelation as a covenantal change from the Jews to the Christians.

God made a covenant with the Jews, but the Jews screwed up. And Jesus made a lot of prophecies about what would happen upon Jerusalem (Matthew 23-24). He even said that these things would happen in the lifetime of the apostles (Matt 16:27-28, Matt 23:36, 24:34). And we see that all those events happened in the first century, as depicted in Revelation chapters 1-19.

Please consider this:

-----------------
WHO IS "BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES"? SHE IS . . . JERUSALEM


1. SHE FILLS HERSELF WITH THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS AND SAINTS: Rev 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, 24. Cf. Mt 23:37 and Acts 7:52.
2. SHE IS THE "GREAT CITY ... WHERE ALSO THE ... LORD WAS CRUCIFIED" (Rev 11:8) Although Rev 11 clearly is speaking of Jerusalem, is this the "Babylon the Great" of later chapters? Yes, the designation, "great city" is used both in ch. 11 and chs. 17-18 (17:18, 18:10, 16, 19, 21).

3. THE IMAGE OF THE UNFAITHFUL WIFE, THE HARLOT, WAS OFTEN USED OF ISRAEL IN THE OT. Israel is repeatedly called the wife of God (Jer 2:2, 3:14, Is 54:5). But she was an unfaithful wife (Jer 3:20, Hos 1:2, Ez 6:9, Ez 16, Is 50:1) behaving as a prostitute (Jer 3:1-2). In the context of Jerusalem’s designation as a prostitute, Is 1:21 is especially noteworthy: "See how the faithful city has become a harlot."

4. HER ARRAY


a. Dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones and pearls (Rev 17:3-5) - an almost exact description of the high priest’s ephod (Ex 28:5-6, 36)
b. This combination of fabrics and gems also describes the temple tapestry which, according to Josephus, was "Babylonian tapestry in which blue, purple, scarlet and linen were mingled." (Wars 5.5.4)

c. The gold cup she holds (Rev 17:4) is symbolic of the temple’s implements: "The greatest part of the vessels ... were of silver and gold" (Wars 5.4.4.)

d. Josephus’ description of the temple reflects the same opulence: "The outward face of the temple in its front ... was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun's own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow; for, as to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceeding white." (Wars 5.5.6)

The inscription on the prostitute’s forehead is a perverse image of that on the high priest’s: "Holy to the Lord."


5. HER DESTRUCTION:

a. EVEN JERUSALEM’S END RESEMBLES THAT OF AN ADULTEROUS WIFE - DEATH BY STONING: Josephus writes: "The stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5.6.3) This account is reminescent of hailstones, weighing a talent each, that rain down on the "great city" in Rev 16:19-21.
b. In the end, a New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, replacing the old, adulterous bride.
-----------------

And since I believe the last 2 chapters of Revelation were also fulfilled, I look at the bride of Christ as the new covenant Church. Isn't it fascinating how biblical Judaism disappeared completely at the fall of Jerusalem, and the Church appears fully distinct from Judaism in 70AD?

It's very clear to me that the covenant God made with the Church, is only for the Church, and no one else.

Also, here's what I found interesting from the words of St. Paul (concerning Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar):

His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother (Gal 4:24-26)

Notice the mention of 'Jerusalem that is above'? I think this is the same 'New Jerusalem' (Rev 21:1-2), which may be the same thing as the 'heavenly Jerusalem' (Heb 12:22). And then St. Paul adds:

But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (Gal 4:30-31)

In light of all this, I can't see how Jews or Muslims can be part of this covenant, unless they go through Jesus (John 14:6)

-Jason

 

[Wolseley]

I don't find it the slightest bit frightening. I know where I'm at, and I intend to stay there. As for every other religion in the world, my job is to witness to what I believe to be truth, and leave them to God.

It's His job to decide what to do with them anyway, not mine. I am not arrogant enough to stand up and tell God, "You can't let these people into heaven, because it's unscriptural! In case You're not aware of it, God, allow me to draw Your attention to the 14th Chapter of John's Gospel....."

I'm going to say this to God???? I'm going to start telling Him what He can and can't do????

Not me, baby. I'm here to do my job and keep my mouth shut. He's the Boss; let Him handle it.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Wolseley
I don't find it the slightest bit frightening. I know where I'm at, and I intend to stay there. As for every other religion in the world, my job is to witness to what I believe to be truth, and leave them to God.

It's His job to decide what to do with them anyway, not mine. I am not arrogant enough to stand up and tell God, "You can't let these people into heaven, because it's unscriptural! In case You're not aware of it, God, allow me to draw Your attention to the 14th Chapter of John's Gospel....."

I'm going to say this to God???? I'm going to start telling Him what He can and can't do????

Not me, baby. I'm here to do my job and keep my mouth shut. He's the Boss; let Him handle it.

Amen brother! LOL!

I wouldn't say that I believe that God can't bring people into Heaven in some strange way. That would be putting God in a box. But I don't think people from other religions can work their way into heaven and such, considering Muslims believe they must work to receive God's love. That to me doesn't sound like grace at all. But again, I agree with this statement:

I'm going to say this to God???? I'm going to start telling Him what He can and can't do????

=)

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

I'm not one to even TRY to interpret Revelation, LOL. When I was a kid, it scared me spitless.

I will say this: the Jews screwed up time, after time, after time, after time, after time, in the OT. And while God would often smack them with the back of His hand, they were still HIS PEOPLE.

The way I see it, Gentiles (that's us!) are permitted to SHARE in the heritage of being God's Chosen People, through adoption by accepting Jesus. If we are going to "cash in" so to speak, on the heritage, then I am going to definitely acknowledge that the status still exists.

Like I said, it's my interpretation that God made the Jews His Chosen People. That is irrevocable, permanent. No matter how stupid the Jews get, they will always be Chosen. There wasn't a time limit put on Abraham's covenant!

I'm not going to judge, either Jew nor Arab. I'll just trust God to keep His promises!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

I'm not one to even TRY to interpret Revelation, LOL. When I was a kid, it scared me spitless.

No need to fear brother! =) Revelation is a book filled with blessings. It's just that many people think 'doom and gloom' when they hear 'Revelation'

I will say this: the Jews screwed up time, after time, after time, after time, after time, in the OT. And while God would often smack them with the back of His hand, they were still HIS PEOPLE.

The way I see it, Gentiles (that's us!) are permitted to SHARE in the heritage of being God's Chosen People, through adoption by accepting Jesus. If we are going to "cash in" so to speak, on the heritage, then I am going to definitely acknowledge that the status still exists.

Like I said, it's my interpretation that God made the Jews His Chosen People. That is irrevocable, permanent. No matter how stupid the Jews get, they will always be Chosen. There wasn't a time limit put on Abraham's covenant!

I'm not going to judge, either Jew nor Arab. I'll just trust God to keep His promises!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Then how would you look at Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28?

 

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba


No need to fear brother! =)

psssst! VOW's a sister.

 

[AlphaPhi]

Most Catholics I know take a semi-preteriest view of Revelation. I certainly do. I don't expect any "tribulation," "seals," "horns," locusts or other whatnot. And certainly no Rapture.

However, going back to the OP, it bothers me that you are reading information about Catholics at CARM, which is one of the most notorious anti-Catholic hate sites on the Net.

 

[Mandy]

Then how would you look at Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28?

Both verses you gave are referring to those "in" Christ.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

All I have to say is that the JEWS are the Chosen people of God and everyone else was allowed into the Family of God because of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

If people think the JEWS still aren't the chosen people they are fooling themselves. And NO I am not Jewish but I do believe there is no doubt that the Jews are God's chosen people.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Mandy



Both verses you gave are referring to those "in" Christ.

LOL!! I just realized it has nothing to do with what we're talk'n about LOL!!!

forgive me VOW, I didn't realize you weren't a brother

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
All I have to say is that the JEWS are the Chosen people of God and everyone else was allowed into the Family of God because of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

If people think the JEWS still aren't the chosen people they are fooling themselves. And NO I am not Jewish but I do believe there is no doubt that the Jews are God's chosen people.

Hi MissytheButterfly,

Can you share your reason behind it?

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Missy sounds like she is just reiterating what I said: Jews are God's Chosen People, through the promise made to Abraham, and that we SHARE in this heritage through Jesus.

And God doesn't break promises....



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

It sounds as if some are saying that all the Jews have to do to obtain salvation is have a Jewish mother. As far as I'm concerned, all those that are elected for salvation are under the Blood of Christ. From modern day Gentiles all the way back to ancient Hebrews, God's salvation has been one salvation: God's grace through the sacrifice of His Son. The ancient Hebrew's sacrifices were shadows that anticipated Christ. ALL of God's Chosen, no matter the race, have been cleansed through Christ's blood.

I think that what some of you are saying is that some people are regenerated through Christ's sacrifice, but they don't know it. I don't doubt that this could happen, because God chooses his Elect sovereignly. For instance, Scripture states that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb; John was regenerated/converted before birth. So, I suppose, God can regenerate a person before or even without their acknowledgement of their own Election.