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What Do Calvinists have to Say about Cornelius?

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DeaconDean

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Bless you MM. You're discovered one truth already! That Paul, being ignorant of the law, still had sin. He was innocent in the sense of not knowing that he had sinned. So, do you think he had a guilty conscience? That his soul was dead? It WASN'T .. he says so himself! Then he heard the law, sin revived (the same sin he had before, covetousness, happened again only this time he was aware of sin), and he died (his soul felt guilt and his conscience was cut off from God, Paul having chosen to sin in the face of God's commandment.).

Showing once again, that you have not studied.

Who was Paul?

Saul, later called Paul was a Pharisee. Matter of fact, Paul was a Pharisee.

"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;" -Phil. 3:5

Paul knew the Law better than anybody except the Lord who wrote it.

"I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day." -Acts 22:3

Paul was not ignorant!

Basically, yes. Do you think a child that gets hold of daddy's gun and accidentally blows his sister' brains out with it is guilty? What if he hates her, too — is that sin? Is an animal guilty of sin for killing other animals to eat? No .. none of these have a conscience that knows what sin is.

Again, you have not studied much.

Did you know that in the Old Testament, there were provisions for sins committed out of ignorance?

Check out Lev. 4:2.

Here's where Calvinists don't quite get it. What being saved really means spiritually is to have their consciences relieved of guilt and their sin natures changed by the Spirit to having the nature of God in them.

I could jump all over this, but where do I begin?

Have you been so expunged of sin by the Christ event that you cannot sin or have fully had your sin nature eradicated?

Shows you don't understand Calvinism, and it shows that you don't know Romans either.

Paul still sinned after the point of salvation, so did Peter. And these men, Peter saw God with his very own eyes, and Paul, heard Him with their own ears.

Yes, they had a new nature implanted in them. But it does not change the fact that our old man is still with us.

It is said:

The believer, on the other hand, has the capacity for godliness because the Spirit of God lives within him or her. He still has the capacity for sin as well, but he now has the ability to resist sin and, more importantly, the desire to resist and to live godly. When Christ was crucified, the old man was crucified with Him, resulting in the Christian's no longer being a slave to sin (Romans 6:6). We “have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:18).

At the moment of conversion, the Christian receives a new nature. It is instantaneous. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the process by which God develops our new nature, enabling us to grow into more holiness through time. This is a continuous process with many victories and defeats as the new nature battles with the “tent” in which it resides—the old man, old nature, flesh.

In Romans 7, Paul explains the battle that rages continually in even the most spiritually mature people. He laments that he does what he doesn’t want to do and, in fact, does the evil he detests. He says that is the result of “sin living in me” (Romans 7:20). He delights in God’s law according to his “inner being,” but he sees another law at work in “the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members” (v. 23). Here is the classic example of the two entities, whatever terms they may carry. The point is that the battle is real, and it is one Christians will wage throughout their lives.


Read more: Does a Christian have two natures?

Something else Baptists said over 200 years ago:

They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection; are also further sanctified, really and personally,1 through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;2 the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,3 and the several lusts thereof, are more and more weakened and mortified;4 and they more and more quickened, and strengthened in all saving graces,5 to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.6



2.This sanctification is throughout in the whole man,7 yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part,8 whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.9

1. Ac 20:32; Ro 6:5-6.
2. Jn 17:17; Eph 3:16-19; 1Th 5:21-23.
3. Ro 6:14.
4. Gal 5:24.
5. Col 1:11.
6. 2Co 7:1; Heb 12:14.
7. 1Th 5:23.
8. Ro 7:18,23.

philadelphia confession-chapter 13

That is Paul's message.

Our hearts must be changed, and the spirit renewed.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psa. 51:10

And even though this has happened, it does not mean we won't sin, either willingly or out of ignorance.

I was saved in 1974. But I still to this day fight with sin that still indwells me.

That is Paul's message in Romans 7.

Donald Grey Barnhouse sums it up like this:

When we are born again new desires are implanted along with the divine nature. However intense these new natures may be, within ourselves is still a principle that is contrary to the will of God; this principle of evil, which opposes every claim of God, hinders and impares every effort to please Him.

Romans, Volume III, God's Freedom, Chapter XVIII, Paul Delivered from Sin, A Regenerate Man Speaking, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi. Copyright 1961, p. 239

Sorry once again.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You don't know what Calvinism actually teaches do you?
 
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DeaconDean

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John L. Dagg, one of the very first Southern Baptist theologian, wrote in his work "Manual of Theology":

GOD IS EVERYWHERE.18


Every material thing in the universe is somewhere. The sun has its place; the earth also, and every grain of sand, and every drop of water. The drops of water may change their place perpetually, but every drop has, for each moment, its own place, to the exclusion of all other matter in the universe.

In our conceptions of the human mind we assign place to it also, though in a different manner. We do not attribute to it length, breadth, and thickness, as to a block of marble, which can be measured by feet and inches; but we conceive of it as present in the human body, with which it is connected, and absent from another, with which it is not connected. Each mind is operated on by impressions made on the organs of sense which belong to its own body; and operates by its volitions on the muscles of motion which belong to that body. In this view, we conceive of each mind as present in its own body, and not elsewhere; and we conceive of changing the place of the mind, while its connection with the body continues, only by a change in the place of the body.

When we conceive of finite spiritual beings as angels, we assign to each some place; because his operation, though not confined like that of the human mind, to a particular material body, is nevertheless limited. Such conception accords with the teaching of Scripture, in which angels are represented as moving from place to place, to execute the will of their Sovereign. So the angel came to Daniel,19 and to Peter;20 and so one is represented as flying through the midst of heaven.21

We must not conceive of God's omnipresence as if it were material. We say that the atmosphere is present at every part of the earth's surface; but this is not strictly true. It is not the whole, but merely a small part of the atmosphere, which is present at each place; God is indivisible. We cannot say, that a part of his essence is here, and a part yonder. If this were the mode of God's omnipresence in universal space, he would be infinitely divided and only an infinitely small part of him would be present at each place. It would not be the whole deity, that takes cognizance of our actions, and listens to our petitions. This notion is unfavorable to piety, and opposed to the true sense of Scripture: "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."22 "The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers."23

There are passages of Scripture which speak of God's removing from one place to another; of his approaching and departing; of his dwelling in heaven, and of his coming near to his people, and taking up his abode with them. These are manifestly accommodations of language; just as when eyes or hands are attributed to him. They refer to the manifestations of his presence in his various works, and dispensations, in which such changes take place, as are appropriately and impressively expressed by this language.

When we deny a material omnipresence of God, as if his essence were divided and diffused; and when we maintain that the whole deity is everywhere present by his energy and operation, it is not to be understood that we deny the essential omnipresence of God. In whatever manner his essence is present anywhere, it is present everywhere. What the mode of that presence is, we know not. We know not the essence of the human mind, nor the mode of its presence in the body; much less can we comprehend the essence of the infinite God, or the mode of his omnipresence. To that incomprehensible property of his nature, by which he is capable of being wholly present at the same moment, with every one of his creatures, without division of his essence, and without removal from place to place, the name immensity has been given. The essence of God is immense or unmeasured, because it is unmeasurable. It is unmeasurable, because it is spiritual, and therefore, without such dimensions as may be measured by feet and inches; and because, in whatever sense dimensions may be ascribed to it, these dimensions are boundless. Time has a dimension not to be measured by feet and inches: and we may say of time, that it is omnipresent. The same moment exists in Europe and America, at Saturn, and the centre of the earth. The omnipresence of time does not explain the omnipresence of God, but it may help us to admit the possibility of omnipresence without division of essence, or removal of place. But the omnipresence of time is not immensity; for time has its measure, and a moment is not eternity.

It is not derogatory to the dignity and glory of God, that he is present everywhere. There are foul places where human beings would prefer not to be; but they do not affect the Deity as they affect men. The sun-beams fall on them without being polluted; and the holy God cannot be contaminated by them. There are scenes of wickedness from which a good man will turn away with abhorrence, and, in the figurative language of Scripture, God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil:"24 yet, in another place of scripture, language no less figurative teaches us that the eyes of God behold the evil as well as the good.25 He witnesses, while he abhors.

A man who sincerely believes the omnipresence of God, cannot be indifferent to religion. To realize that the moral Governor of the universe is ever near, in all his holiness and power, and as much present as if he were nowhere else, must awaken solicitude. When a sense of guilt oppresses, the presence of such companion becomes intolerable. The guilty man strives to flee from the presence of God, as Jonah did; but the doctrine of God's omnipresence teaches him that the attempt is unavailing. The power conscience tormenting the guilty man, wherever he goes, is terrible; but the presence of the God against whom he has sinned, and whose wrath he dreads, is still more terrible. To the soul, reconciled to God, the doctrine is full of consolation. In every place, in every condition, to have with us an almighty friend, a kind father, is a source of unspeakable comfort and joy. We need not fear, though we pass through fire or flood, if God be with us. Even in the valley of the shadow of death, we may fear no evil. In every circumstance and trial, it conduces to holiness, to know that God is present.
18 1 Kings viii. 27; Ps cxxxix. 7: Jer. xxiii. 23.

19 Dan. ix. 23.

20 Acts xii. 7.

21 Rev. xiv. 6.

22 Prov. xv. 3.

23 1 Pet. iii. 12.

24 Hab. i. 13.

25 Prov. xv. 3.

manual of theology dagg-book 2 chapter 2

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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skypair

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Showing once again, that you have not studied.

Who was Paul?

Saul, later called Paul was a Pharisee. Matter of fact, Paul was a Pharisee.
Ha-ha! It is you that is short of studying! Saul was "without the law" as a child, just as he said. You? Saul sinned against the law and, guess what. Saul was saved under the OT covenant! All the way through Ro 7:25, he describes that life. With his mind/spirit, serving the law of God but with his body serving sin and death! I mean .. you have messed this up so much I don't know if you will be able to receive the truth.

Again, you have not studied much.

Did you know that in the Old Testament, there were provisions for sins committed out of ignorance?
Sure! Thanks for documenting it it for us. :) He shall, after the fact, or course, bring his sacrifice! Do you not think that that is what Saul did?

Have you been so expunged of sin by the Christ event that you cannot sin or have fully had your sin nature eradicated?
Replaced, yes. Whereas I desired to sin .. I desire it no more. My entire character has been changed to try to conform the the image of Christ.

Shows you don't understand Calvinism, and it shows that you don't know Romans either.
Interestingly, Calvinism is "Romans intensive" .. and Galations, Ephesians, and Colosians. They don't care too much about the gospels or the rest of the NT. I would advise you, don't make assumptions that you cannot prove.

Paul still sinned after the point of salvation, so did Peter. And these men, Peter saw God with his very own eyes, and Paul, heard Him with their own ears.
Duh.. do you have any real "news" for me?

Yes, they had a new nature implanted in them. But it does not change the fact that our old man is still with us.
Yes, you are perfectly describing my teaching that the Spirit in our soul/conscience coexists with our spirit in our mind. IOW, the mind can be tempted by sin but the soul/conscience, which is the Spirit, cannot.

Our hearts must be changed, and the spirit renewed.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psa. 51:10
Fantastic! You can quote scriptures that you don't understand! A "clean heart" is a will submitted to God. A "right spirit" is right thinking about God and His Word. Don't suppose you have done so, though. You're still enamored with Calvinism, aren't you.

And even though this has happened, it does not mean we won't sin, either willingly or out of ignorance.
But let me ask you .. does the Spirit in you sin???

I was saved in 1974. But I still to this day fight with sin that still indwells me.
You know what the best thing you can do is? Submit to the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ," which is love. In whatever you do, love God and others. If it is not done in love, it is sin. That is what is meant by the commandments of Jesus overcoming "the law sin and death." (Ro 8:2)

You don't know what Calvinism actually teaches do you?
Yeah, I do. I was one once. I believed that because I believed that Christ died for my sins, that I was saved. No. That is just "enlightenment," Jn 16:8-10. That is just a change of mind, not of heart. You really, really ought to change your heart. Do you know how?

skypair
 
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skypair

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John L. Dagg, one of the very first Southern Baptist theologian, wrote in his work "Manual of Theology"
That seems to be pure monotheism. That IS what the OT saints believed. It is not trinitarian.

In trinitarian believe, we KNOW that one Person of the Godhead has a body now glorified and with the Father in heaven. But when He was baptized, we know that He was in a body and yet a voice from heaven spoke saying, "This is My Son in whom I am well pleased."

So just as there are 3 Persons in the Godhead, there are distinctive attributes of each .. else there would be no need of Them being 3. The same goes for their functions in salvation. Only one of them, the Son, died and rose again, for instance. Only One, the Son again, mediates between man and the Father. There has to be at least 2 Persons in such an arrangement.

But your author even admits that he doesn't know in what "mode" God is present everywhere so I wouldn't take him too seriously. Scripture does say that in the "mode" of the Spirit, God is seen everywhere, Ro 1:18.

So my view is 1) "unorthodox" for the OT and 2) unorthodox to those who don't know the Bible.

skypair
 
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skypair

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Monotheism=/=Unitarianism. You again show your ignorance of the subjects at hand.
Well, I'm just glad I'm not either! :)

I wasn't ignorant. It just seemed right to think he was referring to the OT — SCRIPTURE — and not some false denomination.

skypair
 
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Metal Minister

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Well, I'm just glad I'm not either! :)

I wasn't ignorant. It just seemed right to think he was referring to the OT — SCRIPTURE — and not some false denomination.

skypair

You keep exposing your lack of understanding. Christians are monotheists. We believe in a Trinitarian God, but He is still one God.
 
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Bluelion

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Ha-ha! It is you that is short of studying! Saul was "without the law" as a child, just as he said. You? Saul sinned against the law and, guess what. Saul was saved under the OT covenant! All the way through Ro 7:25, he describes that life. With his mind/spirit, serving the law of God but with his body serving sin and death! I mean .. you have messed this up so much I don't know if you will be able to receive the truth.


Sure! Thanks for documenting it it for us. :) He shall, after the fact, or course, bring his sacrifice! Do you not think that that is what Saul did?


Replaced, yes. Whereas I desired to sin .. I desire it no more. My entire character has been changed to try to conform the the image of Christ.


Interestingly, Calvinism is "Romans intensive" .. and Galations, Ephesians, and Colosians. They don't care too much about the gospels or the rest of the NT. I would advise you, don't make assumptions that you cannot prove.


Duh.. do you have any real "news" for me?


Yes, you are perfectly describing my teaching that the Spirit in our soul/conscience coexists with our spirit in our mind. IOW, the mind can be tempted by sin but the soul/conscience, which is the Spirit, cannot.


Fantastic! You can quote scriptures that you don't understand! A "clean heart" is a will submitted to God. A "right spirit" is right thinking about God and His Word. Don't suppose you have done so, though. You're still enamored with Calvinism, aren't you.


But let me ask you .. does the Spirit in you sin???


You know what the best thing you can do is? Submit to the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ," which is love. In whatever you do, love God and others. If it is not done in love, it is sin. That is what is meant by the commandments of Jesus overcoming "the law sin and death." (Ro 8:2)


Yeah, I do. I was one once. I believed that because I believed that Christ died for my sins, that I was saved. No. That is just "enlightenment," Jn 16:8-10. That is just a change of mind, not of heart. You really, really ought to change your heart. Do you know how?

skypair

You need to study Romans again. Paul clearly says not knowing the law is no excuse because the Gentiles had the law written on their hearts. They knew right from wrong, that right from wrong is God's law on the hearts of every human. Everyone has the law as Paul states to the Jews taking away their pride that they have the Law. In Romans Paul is making peace between Jew and Gentile, He takes away the Law, circumcise, and even Abraham from the Jew. Saying it is by Faith. He also says no one can be made right with God by the Law, so no Paul was not saved by OT covenant. The Law never had the power to save, it was by Faith that Abraham was saved and all the prophets not by the law. Paul goes on to say God held punishment because he was looking forward to Jesus on the cross dying for their sins, and yes even Abraham sins. It is by faith we are saved not the Law.

What Paul describes is himself trying to be right with God by the law, it makes a person hostile to God and sin more because they can not do it as Paul says.

Don't be offended that dean said you need to study more or that i say that, we all need to study more, no one knows everything about the Bible except God.
 
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skypair

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You need to study Romans again. Paul clearly says not knowing the law is no excuse because the Gentiles had the law written on their hearts. They knew right from wrong, that right from wrong is God's law on the hearts of every human.
OK, I just reread it and it says the no one can claim not to know that there is a God or Godhead (Ro 1:18-20) .. NOT no one can claim to not know the laws of God.

He also says no one can be made right with God by the Law, so no Paul was not saved by OT covenant.
Of course he WAS! No one is saved without repenting to God — turning and doing His will. Saul became a Pharisee and was a believing one. That is actually why Christ "cornered" him on the road to Damascus!! Saul KNEW the God of the OT — he just didn't know the God of the NT. He was like the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:1-5.

Obviously, no one in the OT was saved. Even Paul knew that! But Saul WAS saved by serving the law of God with his mind even though he served the law of sin in his flesh, Ro 7:25.

The Law never had the power to save, it was by Faith that Abraham was saved and all the prophets not by the law.
Correct .. faith that turned and did God's will. That is, repented — something that to this day you don't understand. As you would have it, Abraham was given faith - just like you, eh?

What Paul describes is himself trying to be right with God by the law, it makes a person hostile to God and sin more because they can not do it as Paul says.
No, that is the warfare that happens in EVERY saved person that doesn't have (OT) have the Spirit. But because we don't serve the law in the flesh but the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (which is to DO nothing other than out of love for God and others), we have no such warfare when we live in the Spirit.

Please don't be offended, either. I know this is all new to you. It has to be because Calvinism doesn't teach it or the Bible on these issues.

...no one knows everything about the Bible except God.
But we DO have the mind of Christ — which IS the Bible, 1Cor 2:16. And I am really glad that you want to discuss it, too! :)

skypair
 
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skypair

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Skypair, you posted that " Saul KNEW the God of the OT — he just didn't know the God of the NT.This is the same God. Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord,I change not.

God did not change from the OT to the NT.

Ha-ha! So you would be saying that Saul knew Jesus was God? Step back from that comment before it blows up in your face! Saul actually said that he was on the "committee" that chose to crucify Jesus as a heretic! Care to rethink that comment?

skypair
 
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LilLamb219

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Edit - This thread will remain closed. There are a number of problems including some flaming and unorthodoxy.

The orthodox Baptist view is that it is Christ who paid the price of sin and that salvation is by grace through faith in Him. The OT saints were covered for sin by the OT law and their faith in a future Messiah but their salvation was not realized until the cross. Christ died for sins past and present and future. Since the cross, we are saved by grace through faith in a Risen Savior. Since the cross, a person has to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior to be born again and saved.
 
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