• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What Do Calvinists have to Say about Cornelius?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married

Skypair, the difference between our views is this:

We both believe infants go to heaven, but:
You believe infants are saved by their own righteousness
I believe infants are saved by grace (by Christ's righteousness)

skypair said:
First, it is NOT my saying that they are "saved." They are NOT saved. Neither is it my saying that they are righteous at all — merely innocent and God does NOT condemn the innocent with the wicked or as if they are wicked!

There you go, displaying your ignorance of the meaning of the word 'saved', just like I said.


In all honesty, you need to be educated. The word "saved" in the Bible literally means "delivered". WHen someone is saved, they are delivered from something. For example, "saved through childbirth" (1 Tim 2:15). The word 'saved' here does not refer to eternal life or justification. It simply means that women will be delivered from something, in this context, from lack of self-worth.

When we speak of being "saved" in the salvific sense we are referring to being delivered from God's wrath.

If you just replace the word "saved" with "delivered", you would see why your statement above makes zero sense. Observe your own words below with the word "saved" replaced with "delivered":

First, it is NOT my saying that they are "delivered." They are NOT delivered. Neither is it my saying that they are righteous at all — merely innocent and God does NOT condemn the innocent with the wicked or as if they are wicked!

So your position is that innocent babies are NOT delivered (ie, spared) from God's wrath?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married

I never posited that baptism saves anyone. Why are you rambling on about baptism? That's off topic.
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Skypair, the difference between our views is this:

We both believe infants go to heaven, but:
You believe infants are saved by their own righteousness
I believe infants are saved by grace (by Christ's righteousness)
No, I do not believe that infants are saved by their own righteousness! Wherever did you get that!? I believe that infants are just because they are INNOCENT! God cannot condemn the INNOCENT.

There you go, displaying your ignorance of the meaning of the word 'saved', just like I said.


In all honesty, you need to be educated. The word "saved" in the Bible literally means "delivered".
They are NOT delivered! They still have to choose to be delivered. And that in the Millennial Kingdom.

When we speak of being "saved" in the salvific sense we are referring to being delivered from God's wrath.
And they are NOT so far as the lake of fire is concerned. You know .. y'all would do well to understand the ETERNAL plan of God — not the "in your lifetime" plan.

If you just replace the word "saved" with "delivered", you would see why your statement above makes zero sense. Observe your own words below with the word "saved" replaced with "delivered":

So your position is that innocent babies are NOT delivered (ie, spared) from God's wrath?
They are NOT delivered eternally from God's wrath. Get it yet?

skypair
 
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, I do not believe that infants are saved by their own righteousness! Wherever did you get that!? I believe that infants are just because they are INNOCENT! God cannot condemn the INNOCENT.

Being seen as guiltless and just in God's sight based on your own "innocence' is the same (ie, synonymous) as being seen as guiltless and just in God's sight based on your own righteousness.

Those two things are the same thing!

In your view, babies are just as sinless as the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is extremely dangerous teaching.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

I pointed this out before. If we are born sinless then there is the possibility to remain so, thereby negating Jesus Christ's life and sacrifice.
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Being seen as guiltless and just in God's sight based on your own "innocence' is the same (ie, synonymous) as being seen as guiltless and just in God's sight based on your own righteousness.
Being saved requires the righteousness of Christ be attributed/imputed to you. Being being declared just according to innocence doesn't.

In your view, babies are just as sinless as the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sinless, yes .. but not having His righteousness.

That is extremely dangerous teaching.
Only for those who don't understand salvation. It obviously threatens your doctrine of depravity and the nature of man, doesn't it.

skypair
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I pointed this out before. If we are born sinless then there is the possibility to remain so, thereby negating Jesus Christ's life and sacrifice.
But that is not how it works out, MM. Even the "justified" of the OT will have to believe on Christ when they are resurrected into His kingdom. It is only then that they receive His righteousness. Until then, they are in heaven declared "not guilty" .. vs. innocence for infants.

I know that you are not aware of these things. Calvinism pretty much teaches what is true today not bothering to understand what was OT and what shall be prophetically. These things all fit into God's plan.

skypair
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

You keep saying that in direct contradiction to what I've already told you. I was once an Arminian. I understand the arguments well, however they're unbiblical. They're based on pure emotion, not true biblical exegesis as you've just demonstrated. Please point to the verse you think best describes all people are born sinless, and I'll show you.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When did The Father,Son,And Holy Ghost become unorthodox or not allowed in a Baptist group?

If you read what Hammster was replying to, and a couple of posts earlier, you will see it isn't the trinity he's calling unorthodox. It's skypair's interpretation that is unorthodox.
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Please point to the verse you think best describes all people are born sinless, and I'll show you.
We can just point to Paul in Ro 7:9, right? "I was alive once before the law…" How can that possibly mean that he was born in sin? How can a "little child's" angel constantly behold the face of God, Mt 18:10? How can you say the they aren't sinless if Jesus said, "Unless you become as one of these little ones, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven?"

Believe me .. you've got a lot of back-tracking to do, MM. And BTW, if you were an Arminian, then I would have to say you got convinced by someone smarter than you to believe Calvinism. It happens all the time — the "better mousetrap."

skypair
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If you read what Hammster was replying to, and a couple of posts earlier, you will see it isn't the trinity he's calling unorthodox. It's skypair's interpretation that is unorthodox.
As is, apparently, my notion of being born in innocence.

It's because they are "unorthodox" to Calvinism.

skypair
 
Upvote 0

now faith

Veteran
Site Supporter
Jul 31, 2011
7,772
1,568
florida
✟279,972.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
If you read what Hammster was replying to, and a couple of posts earlier, you will see it isn't the trinity he's calling unorthodox. It's skypair's interpretation that is unorthodox.

Quote : Interestingly, the Word/Spirit was made flesh in Christ (Jn 1) AND He is made flesh in us as the Comforter!



Is this what you are referring to?
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Quote : Interestingly, the Word/Spirit was made flesh in Christ (Jn 1) AND He is made flesh in us as the Comforter!



Is this what you are referring to?

No, I believe he was referring to:

Neither one is omnipresent.

Then if God nor Jesus is onmipresent, they are not God, and thus, the doctrine of the trinity is false.

Who is Jesus but God made man in the flesh.

The Psalmist wrote:

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." -Psa. 139:7-12

Solomon wrote:

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, watching the evil and the good." -Prov. 15:3

In fact, Jesus said to Nathaniel:

"Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee." Jn. 1:48

If Jesus is God made flesh (Jn. 1:14) then what is said of God is said of Jesus. And to deny that is "Unorthodox theology".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Let's look at a bit of context shall we?

Romans 7:7-19 What shall we say, then?Is the law sinful? Certainly not![bless and do not curse]Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.[bless and do not curse]For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[bless and do not curse]8[bless and do not curse]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment,produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.9[bless and do not curse]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.10[bless and do not curse]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring lifeactually brought death.11[bless and do not curse]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment,deceived me,[bless and do not curse]and through the commandment put me to death.[bless and do not curse]12[bless and do not curse]So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13[bless and do not curse]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good[bless and do not curse]to bring about my death,[bless and do not curse]so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14[bless and do not curse]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual,[bless and do not curse]sold[bless and do not curse]as a slave to sin.[bless and do not curse]15[bless and do not curse]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.16[bless and do not curse]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.[bless and do not curse]17[bless and do not curse]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.18[bless and do not curse]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c][bless and do not curse]For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.[bless and do not curse]19[bless and do not curse]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.[bless and do not curse]

(My apologies for the copy/paste but I do not have the time to type it out.)

As we can see, Romans is not the place to go in an effort to prove Arminianism. As Paul says, it wasn't that he was innocent but that he was ignorant of sin. The law showed him what sin was, and "dying to sin" (as we see in Galatians 2:19) is his reference to our salvation through Christ. (I like the new living translations version of that passage, which is odd because I generally do not!) If a person, ignorant of what God says is sin, commits murder, are they still innocent?
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Then if God nor Jesus is onmipresent,…
No one said that God is not omnipresent. The FATHER and SON are not omnipresent. They have a location now .. an address called "3rd heaven."

The Psalmist wrote:

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?

BINGO!! The Spirit is omnipresent — see that?

Solomon wrote:

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, watching the evil and the good." -Prov. 15:3
Sure, He foreknows everything. He is omniscient. Surely you don't think that I believe God is blind, do you?

If Jesus is God made flesh (Jn. 1:14) then what is said of God is said of Jesus. And to deny that is "Unorthodox theology".
If you, me, and MM are members of the same church, how can it be said that all of what is said one is true of all The Spirit is the same, right? If we are all saved, that is.

Do you know what DOES apply to all 3 — Father, Son, Comforter? They have the same Holy Spirit! Course scripture calls one "the mind of the Lord," one "the mind of Christ," (1Cor 2:16) and one is your mind.

skypair
 
Upvote 0

skypair

Active Member
Mar 7, 2013
265
11
Texas
✟468.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
As we can see, Romans is not the place to go in an effort to prove Arminianism. As Paul says, it wasn't that he was innocent but that he was ignorant of sin.
Bless you MM. You're discovered one truth already! That Paul, being ignorant of the law, still had sin. He was innocent in the sense of not knowing that he had sinned. So, do you think he had a guilty conscience? That his soul was dead? It WASN'T .. he says so himself! Then he heard the law, sin revived (the same sin he had before, covetousness, happened again only this time he was aware of sin), and he died (his soul felt guilt and his conscience was cut off from God, Paul having chosen to sin in the face of God's commandment.).

If a person, ignorant of what God says is sin, commits murder, are they still innocent?
Basically, yes. Do you think a child that gets hold of daddy's gun and accidentally blows his sister' brains out with it is guilty? What if he hates her, too — is that sin? Is an animal guilty of sin for killing other animals to eat? No .. none of these have a conscience that knows what sin is.

Here's where Calvinists don't quite get it. What being saved really means spiritually is to have their consciences relieved of guilt and their sin natures changed by the Spirit to having the nature of God in them.

See, what Calvinists have is actually only a change of mind — change of their spirit — because that is the only thing they acknowledge as "spiritual" about their nature. If they must discuss soul or conscience, it is only as part of their spirit — not something separate. But we know from Heb 4:12 that the soul and spirit can be divided asunder by the Word of God, right? Don't we? That is, they can believe Christ died for them and it do nothing to their soul or conscience. Their nature is unchanged .. in fact, is still guilty of sin.

This is a huge issue, MM! I can only hope that you are paying attention.

skypair
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No one said that God is not omnipresent. The FATHER and SON are not omnipresent. They have a location now .. an address called "3rd heaven."

You did in:

Neither one is omnipresent.

Was present in heaven, and on earth at the same time in Jesus Christ.

Just because God is in heaven, does not mean He is not present here on earth.

BINGO!! The Spirit is omnipresent — see that?

Who is the Holy Spirit but God the Spirit.

God is omnipresent!

Sure, He foreknows everything. He is omniscient. Surely you don't think that I believe God is blind, do you?

Never said He wasn't. But to deny that He is not omnipresent just because there are references to Him as "spirit" is still unorthodox theology.


If you, me, and MM are members of the same church, how can it be said that all of what is said one is true of all The Spirit is the same, right? If we are all saved, that is.

You, MM, and I are not God, so the attributes of one, does not apply to all.

Do you know what DOES apply to all 3 — Father, Son, Comforter? They have the same Holy Spirit! Course scripture calls one "the mind of the Lord," one "the mind of Christ," (1Cor 2:16) and one is your mind.

skypair

Again, as it has been said, you have not studied much.

What is the trinity?

God the Father.

God the Son.

God the Holy Spirit.

Just because the form changes, the attributes do not.

It is still the same God.

If it is present in God the Father, it is present in the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And again, to deny that is to deny basic Baptist beliefs, and to espouse Unorthodox theology.


Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce, Chapter XIV

Sorry.

God is omnipresent, Jesus is omnipresent, so is the Holy Spirit.

Deny that, and your in the realm of unorthodox theology. Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.