What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

nobdysfool · Feb 2, 2012

I found it a little off-putting that there were many times in the article where the tone was one of condescension, along the lines of "no thinking person would accept this or that", or "modern day teachers, desperate to find this or that...". I think such pontificating is unnecessary. It only serves to try and build the writer's gravitas without having to prove the contention, much akin to the modern day referencing of one's political opponents' policies as "failed policies", etc. It adds no weight to the argument, is is mildly insulting. Insulting the reader is not a good way to persuade them of the rightness of your position.

Just my thoughts....

twin1954 · Feb 2, 2012

nobdysfool said:
Well, I have seen a dead person raised: My wife. She was dead for an hour and a half, and God Sovereignly raised her. I was there. She was no longer alive. And, I was not doing anything, or trying to raise her, or anything. God did it without anyone doing anything. The doctors were stunned and nearly speechless. This happened in Cleveland Clinic. She went into cardiac arrest, and nothing they did would bring her back. She had flat-lined. An hour and a half later, her son noticed a faint pulse, and asked for the monitors to be hooked up again. She had a heartbeat and began breathing again. Over the course of 18 hours, she came back, with zero organ or brain damage. 6 weeks later, she received a heart transplant. Her new heart is doing perfectly, after a year. There was and is no loss of mental function, motor skills, or any other health problems. She is in excellent health.

Now, I know it could be asked, "if God raised her, why didn't He also heal her heart?" All I can say is, you'll have to ask Him that question. I don't know. But I cannot deny what I saw with my own two eyes, and heard with my own two ears. Cleveland Clinic is one of the finest heart hospitals in the world. For days afterward, groups of doctors would just come into her room and stare at her, not believing their eyes and ears. They have no medical explanation for her return from death, and recovery. And they freely admit it. I've talked with those doctors. Even they say that God must have intervened.

So, I say with all seriousness and no malice, anyone who says that God doesn't do miracles today, needs to get their theology adjusted. If your theology doesn't allow for that, your theology is wrong.

I never said that God no longer works miracles. Certainly He does everytime a vile wretch is born a new creation in Christ it is a miracle of grace. Still I too have witnessed such a miracle of healing in my mom. She had cancer of the stomach and was healed of it but God did it in such a way, as He did in your wife's case, that it could never be doubted that He did it. He didn't use some preacher or faith healer to come and lay hands on her He simply took it away completly so that it could not be found. When God does a miracle it cannot be faked or doubted who did it. I have never seen anyone who claim to practice the Apostolic gifts raise the dead or heal anyone of any disease where it is as obvious as leprosy.

DeaconDean · Feb 3, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I think that charismatic gifts have ceased because the apostolic age is over.

What about the Apostle Fredrick K. Price?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 3, 2012

DeaconDean said:
What about the Apostle Fredrick K. Price?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Not an apostle.

DeaconDean · Feb 3, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
Not an apostle.

Just pointing out brother.

Also...

"disciple":

one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as

Disciple - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"apostle":

apostoloV 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders 1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ 1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers 1b1) of Barnabas 1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus

Greek Lexicon

While we may not have been on the Damascus Road and had the same experience as Paul, are we not "apostles" of Jesus Christ? Sent out into the world to spread the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ?

So I do not see the "Apostolic age" as having stopped.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 3, 2012

DeaconDean said:
Just pointing out brother.

Also...

"disciple":

Disciple - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"apostle":

Greek Lexicon

While we may not have been on the Damascus Road and had the same experience as Paul, are we not "apostles" of Jesus Christ? Sent out into the world to spread the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ?

So I do not see the "Apostolic age" as having stopped.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I believe that an apostle is only one who was sent by Christ directly for a purpose. That is the 12, Matthais, and Paul.

I do not believe he has sent anyone else personally. Everyone else was is sent by those sent and they are not apostles of Christ but apostles of apostles....etc.

Disciple is just a guy who follows a discipline.
Apostle means one who is sent. When the apostolic era was over the canon was closed and the charismata ceased in my view.

DeaconDean · Feb 3, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I believe that an apostle is only one who was sent by Christ directly for a purpose. That is the 12, Matthais, and Paul.

I do not believe he has sent anyone else personally. Everyone else was is sent by those sent and they are not apostles of Christ but apostles of apostles....etc.

Disciple is just a guy who follows a discipline.
Apostle means one who is sent. When the apostolic era was over the canon was closed and the charismata ceased in my view.

I submit:

Finally, "apostoloi" is a comprehensive term for "bearers of the NT" message. The name was first by the cicrcle of the twelvem i.e. the original apostles (including Matthias brought in as a replacement in Acts 1:26; cf. 1 Cor. 15:5). Their sending by Jesus is presupposed.

Yet the name is also applied to the first Christian missionaries or their most prominate representatives, including some who did not belong even to the wider groups of disciples.

Even in Acts we find this usage at least in 14:4, where Paul and Barnabus are called "apostoloi" without any sense of impropriety on the part of the author. Thus, although the twelve are "apostoloi" for Luke, they are not the only "apostoloi"...James, the Lord's brother, may also be mentioned (cf. Gal. 1:19), like Paul, he joined after the death of Jesus. In Romans 16:7, the word is used of Junias and Andronicus, two otherwise unknown fellow-workers of Paul of Jewish origin. A wider circle (including James, the Lord's brother0 is mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:7.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Erdman Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. I, "apostoloV", p. 422

While I see your point, and I do agree that Jesus has not personally called anybody since Paul, I am a messenger of Christ, sent forth to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world, so I also would be right in calling myself an "apostle".

If the "apostolic age" has come to an end, then there is no need to send missionaries out. THere is no need to proclaim the gospel from the pulpits. There is no need to go out on the street witnessing.

I just don't see it the same way you do.

God Bless

Till all are one.

twin1954 · Feb 4, 2012

DeaconDean said:
I submit:

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Erdman Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. I, "apostoloV", p. 422

While I see your point, and I do agree that Jesus has not personally called anybody since Paul, I am a messenger of Christ, sent forth to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world, so I also would be right in calling myself an "apostle".

If the "apostolic age" has come to an end, then there is no need to send missionaries out. THere is no need to proclaim the gospel from the pulpits. There is no need to go out on the street witnessing.

I just don't see it the same way you do.

God Bless

Till all are one.

There is a difference in the office of Apostle and simply being an apostle as a messenger. The office of Apostle ceased when John died.

DeaconDean · Feb 4, 2012

Well, since everybody says there are no such things as "apostles" today, before I make any more enemies, I'll bow out.

I'll just say that I do not see the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceasing because the "apostolic age" has ended.

Goodbye and

God Bless

Till all are one.

twin1954 · Feb 4, 2012

DeaconDean said:
Well, since everybody says there are no such things as "apostles" today, before I make any more enemies, I'll bow out.

I'll just say that I do not see the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceasing because the "apostolic age" has ended.

Goodbye and

God Bless

Till all are one.

You know that I am not your enemy.

OzSpen · Feb 4, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I believe that an apostle is only one who was sent by Christ directly for a purpose. That is the 12, Matthais, and Paul.

I do not believe he has sent anyone else personally. Everyone else was is sent by those sent and they are not apostles of Christ but apostles of apostles....etc.

Disciple is just a guy who follows a discipline.
Apostle means one who is sent. When the apostolic era was over the canon was closed and the charismata ceased in my view.

Osage,

Could you have a blind spot?

The Holy Spirit set apart Barnabas for what? (See Acts 13:2; 14:14) - as an apostle.
It could be that Rom. 16:7 affirms Andronicus and Junia as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV). And it could be that Junia is a female. Imagine that!
When Christ ascended, Eph. 4:9-12 states that he gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (or pastor-teachers) for the building up of the body of Christ. We need all of these gifts in the church age until Christ comes again.

Sincerely, Oz

DeaconDean · Feb 4, 2012

twin1954 said:
You know that I am not your enemy.

Never said or implied you were.

I just think the point that I was referring to "apostle" with a little "a" and not a big "A" as the 12 was ignored or just plain missed.

I am an apostle, one sent into the world to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I never claimed for myself the title of "Apostle".

Everybody just jumped all over me, so why even bother???

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

spiritwarrior37 · Feb 4, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I think that charismatic gifts have ceased because the apostolic age is over.

Do the scriptures not tell us that prophesy, tounges, and knowledge will cease when that which is perfect is come? Since Christ, "that which is perfect" has not returned yet, I believe that these and other gifts are still alive and well today.

God bless

twin1954 · Feb 4, 2012

spiritwarrior37 said:
Do the scriptures not tell us that prophesy, tounges, and knowledge will cease when that which is perfect is come? Since Christ, "that which is perfect" has not returned yet, I believe that these and other gifts are still alive and well today.

God bless

So why is it that all those gifts that can be faked are focused on and practiced and not the ones that can't be faked?

greatdivide46 · Feb 4, 2012

twin1954 said:
So why is it that all those gifts that can be faked are focused on and practiced and not the ones that can't be faked?

Good point! And why are we told that we must seek the gift of tongues but we don't have to seek other gifts?

Publius · Feb 5, 2012

Andyman_1970 said:
I totally agree. IMO the passages that are used to indicate the tongues have ceased (or any of the gifts for that matter) are a stretch (with all due respect to those who believe that they have ceased).

So then, you believe that scripture is insufficient?

nobdysfool · Feb 5, 2012

Publius said:
So then, you believe that scripture is insufficient?

That is not what is being said. For those who don't believe, these things have ceased. For those who do believe, God grants the gifts as He Wills, and at His discretion. They operate by faith.

"Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, either way, you're right" - Henry Ford

WinBySurrender · Feb 5, 2012

nobdysfool said:
That is not what is being said. For those who don't believe, these things have ceased. For those who do believe, God grants the gifts as He Wills, and at His discretion. They operate by faith.

Nonsense! No one can exhibit a gift that has been withdrawn for it's obsolescence. God does not want actions that distract from His message to inspire belief. He wants the testimony of a changed life to be a witness to others. There was a time when these gifts were valued in confirming the miraculous changes in a person, a family or another group as being from God. That was because the ministry of Christ looked like something new and different for it's directness and interaction between God and man.

The truth is, people didn't investigate the Scriptures well enough to see that 1) these were not "new and different" but God acting as He has always acted, and 2) the confirming gifts were only necessary until "greater miracles than these'" That is, belief based on testimony, not gifts that eventually would distract from the message, as "tongues" and "healings" and especially silly things like "holy laughter" ( ) distract from the real message of the gospel today. These miraculously changed lives could be exhibited by the thousands upon thousands of believers who provided living proof of God's power, based on how He does changes lives, not how He puts words in someone's mouth.

nobdysfool · Feb 5, 2012

WinBySurrender said:
Nonsense! No one can exhibit a gift that has been withdrawn for it's obsolescence. God does not want actions that distract from His message to inspire belief. He wants the testimony of a changed life to be a witness to others. There was a time when these gifts were valued in confirming the miraculous changes in a person, a family or another group as being from God. That was because the ministry of Christ looked like something new and different for it's directness and interaction between God and man.

The truth is, people didn't investigate the Scriptures well enough to see that 1) these were not "new and different" but God acting as He has always acted, and 2) the confirming gifts were only necessary until "greater miracles than these'" That is, belief based on testimony, not gifts that eventually would distract from the message, as "tongues" and "healings" and especially silly things like "holy laughter" ( ) distract from the real message of the gospel today. These miraculously changed lives could be exhibited by the thousands upon thousands of believers who provided living proof of God's power, based on how He does changes lives, not how He puts words in someone's mouth.

Where did I ever say I endorsed things like "holy laughter"? You assume far too much, brother. Far too much. And, I have witnessed miracles, and they were not faked. My wife was raised from the dead by God. You can try to tell me all you want that such things don't happen today, and I will not believe you, for I have SEEN the power of God in action. So save your breath, because I know what I have seen and I know it was God's power. the reality is, you have to find some excuse for the lack of power in your life, so you convince yourself that lack of evidence is proof of lack.

WinBySurrender · Feb 5, 2012

nobdysfool said:
Where did I ever say I endorsed things like "holy laughter"?

Just because I address "holy laughter" in my post doesn't mean I'm accusing you of endorsing it, or anything else for that matter. Knock the chip off your own shoulder and see if we can discuss, not accuse, what do you say?

nobdysfool said:
...I have SEEN the power of God in action.

I'm not going to address your statement before this line in your post. That's an invitation to disemboweling one another. But I tell you, I have seen the power of God as well. I see it everyday in the lives of men and women who spent from a few months to many, many years in prison. It happens because of complete and final surrender of their will to God. As a result, they experience miraculous changes in thinking processes, instincts, emotions, etc., things prison officials and society told them would never change. No one spoke in tongues to them or laid hands on them (and many of these folks would react out of instinct and punch someone who tried that). They didn't need distractions to "confirm" anything to them. Still, they knew God had touched them in powerful, miraculous ways. There was no ostentatiousness about it, just life change, and that turns into positive witness. The gifts are no longer needed because of testimonies like these, multiplied by tens of millions, so the gifts are dead. No amount of "I saw this," or "This actually happened to me" is going to convince me, and every act people have claimed they could show me was all show and no go. Testimonies spread the word of God today. Period.

What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

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