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Meanwhile the actual BoM says that God was sooooo not-ok with what BoM calls the "abomination" of polygamy that He sent Jews out of Israel and to America to escape it.
Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.
Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?
God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.
Isaiah 4 is God's curse saying that all the men would be killed and the 7 women would merely want to have the family name of the few remaining men left in Israel.
Which BoM says is an abomination and which caused Emma to suffer even by Mormon standards.
Meanwhile the NT says that no man can lead the church unless he meets the basics ... the very basics "husband of one wife" -- Titus 1
So then BoM calls it "abomination" and the NT flat out condemns any Christian leader that tries it -- and your response is to compare it to God stopping Abraham from murdering his son.
Interesting.
"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20
Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Probably soon polygamy will be lawful since gay marriage is now lawful.Will the Lord have us live the law of plural marriage again?
Was his "gift of translation" defective?
They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.
I am guessing we both would agree on that point.
They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.
I am guessing we both would agree on that point.
The scripture you keep quoting Deut 17: 17 is about the king who is not to amass wealth (horses, wives, silver, and gold) and he shall read and keep the commands. It does not say he can have no silver, no horses, no wives, or no gold.
I am assuming that David and Bathsheba were married after the death of Uriah.
I still do not understand the term "spiritual wife". What is a spiritual wife? How do you know that David did not have children with the wives of Saul?
That is one way he translated the BOM
If it is a non-biblical topic of translating a document from a hat, then everything you do is non-biblical.
IOW, of course it was non-biblical for JS to translate documents, no matter how he translated them.
No, as he matured in the translation process, he was given other ways to do it faster and better.
You continually forget that JS was doing this under the direction of Jesus Christ.
Jesus told him not to show the plates to anyone
So if Jesus has not told you to show the scribe you are using at the time, and that scribe comes into the room, would you leave the plates on the table in plain view, or would you at least cover them with something? What would you do?
Nobody that I know has ever endeavored to produce a book like this one.
I would agree that people do not write books to prove they are prophets of God.
However, if you were Jesus and you wanted to restore your true church to the earth, and you wanted to get a lot of people instantly into the church to start building up the kingdom of God, why not allow JS to translate
The BOM first and formost testifies of Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and was made flesh and came to earth to atone for the sins of all mankind.
He was resurrected and in that resurrected body, he visited the people in the Americas .
The BOM also testifies, just from its existence, that the one you translated it, did so by the gift and power of God, and is with Jesus in the restoring of His true church to the earth in these last days.
The BOM testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, and that JS is His prophet.
We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .
No. This is something you have made up. The Book of Mormon speaks to the reason why Lehi and others were led out of Israel and it was not to escape the abomination of polygamy. I challenge you to find a verse that actually supports your claim.
Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
=========================== begin quote D&C
Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16
42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
49:15-16
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;
17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
Such an abomination that the BoM says the entire Mormon story had to be created - calling Israel out of the middle east to get them away from such abomination.
And then "some spirit" tells Smith to get right back into it? I wonder what spirit that would be?
"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20
Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .
And for those who read the Book of Mormon:
Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
by contrast
=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
=========================== begin quote D&C
Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16
42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
========================
So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??
Are you reading the posts so far??
for example... this one.
This scripture relates to polygamy:Granted - context is everything -- when showing God meant "husband of one wife" in that case.
Duet 17
16 Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.
(multiply.. as in "more than one" in the case of the wives". not "you must have none")
So then Titus 1
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
Gen 2
“And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. ” | Genesis 2:23-25
“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” | 1 Timothy 3:12
Cain was the father of the wicked in the book of Genesis - it is one of his wicked descendants that started the practice of polygamy.
Gen 4
17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son. 18 Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech. 19 Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah
23 Lamech said to his wives,
“Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
These are not "polygamy for all" texts.
IF I were talking with someone that did not read the Book of Mormon that might be confusing.
1. He did not even have the wives of Saul as his wives. All that was Saul's fell into David's hands at Saul's death but he treated them with respect not as "stolen wives" - but as friends.
2 Samuel 12:8 "I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care
Does not say " your master's wives to have as your own wife". Details matter.
=====================================
And for those who read the Book of Mormon:
Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
=========================== begin quote D&C
Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16
42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
========================
So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??
Are you reading the posts so far??
for example... this one.
It may not be the reason but it is still condemned. Why do you keep the BOM anyway when it contradicts so much with your later revelations in the D&C and the Pearl of Great price?Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
Nothing in this verse indicates that this wicked practice is the reason Lehi came to the new lands across the ocean. It doesn't exist.
It may not be the reason but . . .
Why do you keep the BOM anyway when it contradicts so much with your later revelations in the D&C and the Pearl of Great price?
From the parts I read, I seems like an edifying legend and may get to read it all one day.The Book of Mormon is a treasure of inspirational information that improves my life on a daily basis. That's why I keep it. (Since you asked.)
We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .
No. This is something you have made up. The Book of Mormon speaks to the reason why Lehi and others were led out of Israel and it was not to escape the abomination of polygamy. I challenge you to find a verse that actually supports your claim.
Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
=========================== begin quote D&C
Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16
42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
49:15-16
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;
17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
Such an abomination that the BoM says the entire Mormon story had to be created - calling Israel out of the middle east to get them away from such abomination.
And then "some spirit" tells Smith to get right back into it? I wonder what spirit that would be?
"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20
Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Jacob 1:15
[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
Nothing in this verse indicates that this wicked practice is the reason Lehi came to the new lands across the ocean
There is no but. BobRyan claimed that it was the reason Lehi left Israel and it wasn't. His premise is based on something that isn't true.
Until you read - this
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
Yep. It still doesn't say anything about polygamy being the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. It only mentions that God did this to raise up a righteous branch from the descendants of Joseph.
Well at least you now know the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. I hope.Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
You respond "as if" all I had posted was --
Jacob 2:25 "I want to raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph."
There are several people reading this thread - do you really think we are not able to read any part of that quote except for "raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph." seriously?? that's the "solution"??
You might as well post "you are right...and I have no answer" as try the tactic you are resorting to.
Well at least you now know the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. I hope.
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