What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

parousia70 said:

Then Find me one ECF who wrote about the Olivet who did NOT teach that Matthew 24 found fulfillment in the first century.

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Tell me ANYTHING said by Papias in his five volumes, other than that he was a chiliast.

We KNOW that books were written that were NOT preserved. This is HARD PROOF that it is sheer nonsense to claim that ANY particular idea was NEVER taught.

parousia70 said:

Then Find me one ECF who wrote about the Olivet who did NOT teach that Matthew 24 found fulfillment in the first century.

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My point was the gross foolishness of your claim. But in addition to be grossly foolish, it was flat out wrong. Irenaeus wrote about Matthew 24, clearly teaching that it was about a future (future from the time of his writing, which was around 186-188 A.D.) coming of the Antichrist.

He taught this at length, but an example is:
"Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: 'But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.'"
"Against Heresies," by Irenaeus, book 5, chapter 25.

And not long after that time Hippolytus wrote the same concerning the future Antichrist in section 62 of his "Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," saying,

"The Lord also says, 'When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains, and let him which is on the housetop not come down to take his clothes; neither let him which is in the field return back to take anything out of his house. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved.' And Daniel says, 'And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand two hundred and ninety-five days.'"

And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome called futurism "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

So the truth is that the early ECF's were more uniform in applying the Olivet discourse to their future, than in applying it their past. That is, the truth is exactly the opposite of what you mistakenly claimed.

BABerean2 said:

Now we can all see...

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Said the blindman.

BABerean2 said:

If you do not ignore the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:20 your pretrib doctrine dies.

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All these empty statements. I don't need to ignore any scripture. The seven stars are the angels of the 7 churches and the seven candlesticks are the 7 churches. Certainly no need to ignore those verses.

Rev 1
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

BABerean2 said:

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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Ok. And does that mean you are King of Uganda.

BABerean2 said:

While you are at it, try to ignore those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

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I don't need to ignore any verses. Maybe you should read the prior verse..........or are you ignoring it?
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Those that overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb overcame him before he was cast down. Satan accused the brethren before God day and night......BEFORE he was cast down. Once Satan was cast down he went to make war with the remnant of the woman. The church and the twelve tribes will both be raptured.

BABerean2 said:

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

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A whole bunch of smoke and mirrors from you as usual. The church is already in heaven at the pretrib rapture..........like the days of Noah. The twelve tribes are caught up in the gathering from earth and heaven in the pre wrath rapture......like the days of Lot.

Jesus will come for the mostly Gentile church before the tribulation. After the fullness of the Gentiles occurs He will come for His ELECT. All are saved by faith in the Messiah. I don't have to ignore anything as the scripture speaks for itself.

Biblewriter said:

chilist

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The word is "chiliast".

jgr said:

The word is "chiliast".

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Thank youfor your spelling correction.

Choose Wisely said:

I don't need to ignore any verses. Maybe you should read the prior verse..........or are you ignoring it?

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You have to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Otherwise, your Two Peoples of God doctrine would fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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BABerean2 said:

You have to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Otherwise, your Two Peoples of God doctrine would fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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I'm not quite sure why you keep making these ridiculous statements. Why would anyone have to ignore the truth. God made a new covenant and when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in Israel will become jealous.........exactly like God says in his word.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Bet you're ready to pop a gasket as you have to ignore the word of God to spout your failed doctrine.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Luke's Gospel seems to tie in more to Revelation than the others.

If Luke 21 is fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem, then the verses showing Jesus on a cloud in Revelation has to be that event also I would think.........

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 10:1
And I saw another strong Messenger descending out of the heaven
having been clothed a cloud and the rainbow upon His head
and His face as the sun and His feet as pillars of fire

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Like Jesus in Acts 1, the 2 witnesses are taken up in a cloud:

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here"!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

These could be symbolizing Gabriel and Michael? This is the great harvest:

Revelation 14:
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap!
for the time has come for Thee to reap, for the harvest of the land is ripe.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

I am just so awed by all this Angelic imagery in Revelation and the OT.

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude. [Revelation 1:13-15]
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

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BABerean2 said:

What do the Two Witnesses symbolize, based on what is clearly written in scripture?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Are they two men made of wood and metal?

What did Christ say about the symbol of the "lampstands" in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
Should we think the symbol has changed later in the book?

What symbol did Paul use to represent the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul used the two Olive Trees to symbolize the Church.

Therefore, the most logical interpretation would be that the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

They are killed for their witness, and are then resurrected from the dead, and then ascend into a cloud right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.
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What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Choose Wisely said:

The usual twisting of scripture and taking things out of context.

Instead of two flesh and blood witnesses that will come and represent the church as you suggest, it is the other way around. The two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before God represent the two flesh and blood witnesses.

Just because the 7 lampstands represent the 7 churches in Rev 1,that does not mean that the two lampstands that stand before God in Rev 11 represents the church. The word tells us exactly what those two lampstands represent.........they represent the two witnesses.

Bottom line........the two witnesses do not represent the church......the two olive trees and the two lampstands represent the two witnesses.........just like scripture clearly says.

Always twisting and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

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BABerean2 said:

If you want to think the Two Witnesses are two men made of wood and metal, then go right ahead.

That idea fits perfectly with pretrib logic.
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Choose Wisely said:

No that's just you twisting scripture again. The 2 witnesses are flesh and blood as I said in my post.

Rev 11
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

Do you think you will see the entire church die in the street of the great city? Do you have anything you can comment on where you don't twist the scripture to make it say what your want?

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BABerean2 said:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
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Choose Wisely said:

Excellent. You were able to post something without twisting it.

So John was instructed to write the things which are. We see John wrote that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

John was also instructed to write the things which will take place after this. We see that John writes about things that will take place after this. He writes a about a future event that has not occurred yet.

Rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

When this future event occurs, during the 1260 days the two olive trees and the two candlesticks will be his two witnesses that prophesy. The church will be gone in the pretrib rapture.

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BABerean2 said:

Now we can all see...

If you do not ignore the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:20 your pretrib doctrine dies.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

While you are at it, try to ignore those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Choose Wisely said: ↑
I don't need to ignore any verses. Maybe you should read the prior verse..........or are you ignoring it?

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BABerean2 said: ↑
You have to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Otherwise, your Two Peoples of God doctrine would fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Choose Wisely said:

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Bet you're ready to pop a gasket as you have to deny the word of God to spout your failed doctrine.

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[You 2 need to get a room together]

I like Romans...

Book of Romans verse by verse study
May 7, 2009

Jealousy...........
Did the ECFs say anything about the similarity of the Seat of Jealousy in Ezekiel 8:3 compared to the Woman in Revelation 17:3?
Both John and Ezekiel are carried away in Spirit.......Fascinating visions!

OT PROPHECIES FOUND IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION
The Image of Jealousy

7068 qin'ah kin-aw' from 7065;
jealousy or envy:--envy(-ied), jealousy, X sake, zeal.

Ezekiel 8 [Revelation 17:3]
3 He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair;
and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of the jealousy<7068> was, which provokes to jealousy<7069>.
5 And He saith unto me, ‘Son of adam! lift up, I pray thee, thine eyes the way of the north.’
And I lift up mine eyes the way of the north, and behold! on the north of the gate of the altar this image of jealousy, at the entrance.

Revelation 17 [Ezekiel 8:3]
3 and He carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit,
and I saw a Woman sitting upon a scarlet/crimson beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns,

3863. parazeloo par-ad-zay-lo'-o from 3844 and 2206;
to stimulate alongside, i.e. excite to rivalry:--provoke to emulation (jealousy).

Romans 10:19
But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy<3863> by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”[fn]

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