What did Jesus mean when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments?"

Soyeong · Dec 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Exodus 12:48-50
48 "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. 49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." 50 Then all the sons of Israel did so; they did just as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron.

So if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then they were required to become circumcised. That was not a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not a requirement for any Gentile to do so in order to become saved. Again, though God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews are required to do so in order to become saved.

ToBeLoved · Dec 12, 2017

Soyeong said:
So if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then they were required to become circumcised. That was not a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not a requirement for any Gentile to do so in order to become saved. Again, though God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews are required to do so in order to become saved.

Saved is not even a word used in the Old Testament.

You are all mixed up theologically.

And all who were to live with the OT Hebrews became circumcized

Soyeong · Dec 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Saved is not even a word used in the Old Testament.

A simple word search disproves that.

You are all mixed up theologically.

I'm not the one teaching that following Jesus means to break the Law that he followed.

And all who were to live with the OT Hebrews became circumcized

Feel free to provide a quote.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 12, 2017

Ken Rank said:
That's fine... I don't believe we have to see eye to eye on this now. If we knew each other enough and knew we could ask each other questions without fear of division or strife, I would probably ask how you all reconcile Zechariah 14:16-19 in light of your beliefs. Beyond that, I don't believe any one person or group is 100% correct on all things and so I see no need for either of us to convince the other. We are bound by the core aspects of our faith, beyond that, I believe.... we need to allow each other the freedom to come to our own conclusions.

By the way, I believe the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant as well.

Well said Ken... the Spirit will lead.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 12, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Some might claim this to be Joshua... Yehoshua... and others might claim this to be Messiah. Both perhaps? One being a picture of the other?

There were many "types" of Christ in the OT.

discipler7 · Dec 12, 2017

Soyeong said:
While God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even they were required to do so in order to become saved.

Not quite true.
.
Before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth in 000BC, the Jews were required to be circumcised and keep God's Law or Moses Law, in order to be saved from hell, as per ...

LUKE.16: = 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

After the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth, this was no longer true, ie the Jews were required to also believe in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, in order to be saved, as per JOHN.3:16, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6 = early Jewish Christians like the apostles.

But for new Gentile Christians who believed, they were only required by God to start keeping 4 easy laws of Moses and then gradually the other non-burdensome laws, in order to be saved from hell, as per ACTS.15:24-29, 1CORINTHIANS.3:1-3 & 5:1-5 & 6:9-11.

Soyeong · Dec 13, 2017

discipler7 said:
Not quite true.
.
Before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth in 000BC, the Jews were required to be circumcised and keep God's Law or Moses Law, in order to be saved from hell, as per ...

LUKE.16: = 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

After the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth, this was no longer true, ie the Jews were required to also believe in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, in order to be saved, as per JOHN.3:16, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6 = early Jewish Christians like the apostles.

But for new Gentile Christians who believed, they were only required by God to start keeping 4 easy laws of Moses and then gradually the other non-burdensome laws, in order to be saved from hell, as per ACTS.15:24-29, 1CORINTHIANS.3:1-3 & 5:1-5 & 6:9-11.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and obedience to God is straightforwardly about having faith in Him to teach us how to walk in His ways. In Romans 10:5-8, it quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that God's law is not to difficult for us to obey, but that His Word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart so that we can obey it. There are also a number of instance where disobeyed the Mosaic Law is referred to as breaking faith. Furthermore, living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will as revealed through His commands, such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, so whenever you see the Bible talk about obedience to the Law, you should think that it is speak about living by faith unless otherwise noted. So the one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are therefore required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. As such, there is no reason to consider Luke 16:27-31 to be speaking about obedience apart from faith. A relationship with Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4), so obedience to the Law has always been about putting our faith in Christ for our salvation. According to 1 John 5:3, God's laws are not burdensome, so are no non-burdensome laws.

discipler7 · Dec 13, 2017

Soyeong said:
So the one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are therefore required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. As such, there is no reason to consider Luke 16:27-31 to be speaking about obedience apart from faith. A relationship with Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4), ...

.
The OT Jews kept the Law because they had faith in God and His Law, eg Moses, Elijah, King David, beggar Lazarus, etc. These law-abiding and faithful Jews were eventually saved from hell after death.

Jews like Moses, Elijah and beggar Lazarus who lived before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ and the Cross on earth in 000BC, did not have the opportunity to place their faith on Jesus as their Christ/Messiah while they were still living on earth, but only to place their faith on Moses Law.(LUKE.16:19-31)
... Only after death, did they had the opportunity to place their faith on God's Son and be saved from hell.(1PETER.3:19, MATTHEW.17:3)
... In comparison, the rich Jew who refused to give charity to Lazarus ended up in hell after death for unrepentantly breaking God's Law/commandment at DEUT.15:11 and was not given the opportunity to hear Christ's gospel after death.

There is a big difference between having faith in God's Law(= before and after 000BC) and having faith in God's Son(= only after 000BC), even though both require faith, ie the reward or blessing from God is different. The former brings reward for this life on earth(DEUT.28, ROMANS.2:10) while the latter brings reward for the afterlife after death or leaving this rotten earth.(JOHN.3:16)
... IOW, most people who live after 000BC already have the opportunity to place their faith in God's Son - Jesus Christ, eg today.

The Jews today still have faith in God and His Law or Moses Law = the Jews have been blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. But because they refuse to have faith in God's Son - Jesus the Christ/Messiah, they miss the additional reward of eternal life after death. Today, they are still waiting for their Messiah/Christ.
... Similarly for the Muslims.

HEBREWS.11: = 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Soyeong · Dec 13, 2017

discipler7 said:
.
The OT Jews kept the Law because they had faith in God and His Law, eg Moses, Elijah, King David, beggar Lazarus, etc. These law-abiding and faithful Jews were eventually saved from hell after death.

Jews like Moses, Elijah and beggar Lazarus who lived before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ and the Cross on earth in 000BC, did not have the opportunity to place their faith on Jesus as their Christ/Messiah while they were still living on earth, but only to place their faith on Moses Law.(LUKE.16:19-31)
... Only after death, did they had the opportunity to place their faith on God's Son and be saved from hell.(1PETER.3:19, MATTHEW.17:3)
... In comparison, the rich Jew who refused to give charity to Lazarus ended up in hell after death for unrepentantly breaking God's Law/commandment at DEUT.15:11 and was not given the opportunity to hear Christ's gospel after death.

There is a big difference between having faith in God's Law(= before and after 000BC) and having faith in God's Son(= only after 000BC), even though both require faith, ie the reward or blessing from God is different. The former brings reward for this life on earth(DEUT.28, ROMANS.2:10) while the latter brings reward for the afterlife after death or leaving this rotten earth.(JOHN.3:16)
... IOW, most people who live after 000BC already have the opportunity to place their faith in God's Son - Jesus Christ, eg today.

The Jews today still have faith in God and His Law or Moses Law = the Jews have been blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. But because they refuse to have faith in God's Son - Jesus the Christ/Messiah, they miss the additional reward of eternal life after death. Today, they are still waiting for their Messiah/Christ.
... Similarly for the Muslims.

HEBREWS.11: = 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

There is much more continuity in the Bible that you give it credit for. Faith in the promised Redeemer is of central importance in both the OT and the NT. In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and was glad, so people in the OT looked in faith to Messiah in the same way we do. It wasn't like they had no idea that there was supposed to be a Messiah until he showed up, but rather there are many prophecies concerning his coming. Everything in the Torah is there to teach us about the Messiah and how to have a relationship with him, so the goal of obeying the Law has always been a relationship with him for righteousness for everyone who has faith. The Law is the way (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so there is no distinction between following them, and obedience to the Law should never be understood as being apart from faith in Messiah.

While God promised land if they obeyed His commands, that was not the extent of the command, but rather they were given to teach us how to walk in God's ways, how to grow in a relationship with him, and thereby how to have eternal life. Again, it was not like Jews had never heard of eternal life until Jesus showed up.

FYI, there was no 000BC.

discipler7 · Dec 13, 2017

Soyeong said:
FYI, there was no 000BC.

.
FYI, 000BC or 0BC or 0AD was the year of the Birth of Christ and 33AD was the year that Christ was crucified on the Cross.
... I doubt Abraham or Moses, Elijah, beggar Lazarus or other faithful OT figures saw the crucifixion of Christ on the Cross and His shed Blood which is able to save the faithful from hell(JOHN.6:54). Moses only saw the serpent on the Cross(JOHN.3:14).

Soyeong · Dec 13, 2017

discipler7 said:
.
FYI, 000BC or 0BC or 0AD was the year of the Birth of Christ and 33AD was the year that Christ was crucified on the Cross.

There was no 000BC, 0BC, or 0AD, but rather it went directly from 1 BC to 1 AD. Furthermore, most scholars place his birth between 7 and 2 BC.

... I doubt Abraham or Moses, Elijah, beggar Lazarus or other faithful OT figures saw the crucifixion of Christ on the Cross and His shed Blood which is able to save the faithful from hell(JOHN.6:54). Moses only saw the serpent on the Cross(JOHN.3:14).

They perhaps did not know the means of how the Messiah would Redeem us, but they nevertheless had faith that they would be redeemed.

Ron Gurley · Jan 4, 2018

Jesus was a preacher, teacher, prophet, miracle worker, etc. He was our perfect example to follow. All of his words and acts are his commandments and precepts.
His love for us was perfect. We should try to return that love.

ToBeLoved · Jan 11, 2018

Soyeong said:
So if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then they were required to become circumcised. That was not a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not a requirement for any Gentile to do so in order to become saved. Again, though God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews are required to do so in order to become saved.

There was no salvation before Christ. And your using Nt verbiage liked ‘saved’ and applying it to Exodus, shows you apply nT and New Covenant aspects to the OT and Old Covenant. Very odd theology.

I believe that they were required to convert and nothing you have said shows they were not, except opinion

ToBeLoved · Jan 11, 2018

Soyeong said:
the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so there is no distinction between following them, and obedience to the Law should never be understood as being apart from faith in Messiah.

This is odd theology given the New Covenant. You should review the New Covenant.

Soyeong · Jan 11, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
There was no salvation before Christ. And your using Nt verbiage liked ‘saved’ and applying it to Exodus, shows you apply nT and New Covenant aspects to the OT and Old Covenant. Very odd theology.

According to John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day and was glad, so people in the OT were saved through faith in the promise in exactly the same way that we are saved. The NT is not God saying "and now for something completely different", but rather it is all one continuous plan of redemption. Hebrews 11 is full of OT examples of people who had saving faith.

I believe that they were required to convert and nothing you have said shows they were not, except opinion

Well, then please cite where the OT required all Gentiles to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved. I can assure that that requirement is found nowhere in the OT, but if you can find where God required it, then please explain why Gentiles should obey the Jerusalem Council instead of God.

This is odd theology given the New Covenant. You should review the New Covenant.

Jesus was sinless and taught how to walk in obedience to the Law by word and by example, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). The New Covenant does not teach that the way to follow Christ is to reject the Law that he followed.

ToBeLoved · Jan 11, 2018

Soyeong said:
According to John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day and was glad, so people in the OT were saved through faith in the promise in exactly the same way that we are saved. The NT is not God saying "and now for something completely different", but rather it is all one continuous plan of redemption. Hebrews 11 is full of OT examples of people who had saving faith.

No.

Most people in the OT did not see the faith promise, that is specific to Abraham and that is why Abraham is the father of all who have faith, because Abraham saw something special because of his faith. Using Abraham who saw something no one else did and using that to show that all the people in the OT were saved through faith like Abraham is a huge presumption.

Faith wasn't even mentioned by Moses as part of the law, which is why Jesus said that the Pharisee's and teachers missed the larger, spiritual point of the law.

Actually, the individual Patriarchs who had faith were listed out in the NT, but most people did not.

That is one reason that God now writes His law on our hearts and does not have people teaching other people, but the Holy Spirit guiding us in truth.

ToBeLoved · Jan 11, 2018

Soyeong said:
Well, then please cite where the OT required all Gentiles to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved. I can assure that that requirement is found nowhere in the OT, but if you can find where God required it, then please explain why Gentiles should obey the Jerusalem Council instead of God.

Again, you are using 'saved' or New Covenant terms in the OT/Old Covenant.

You are assuming that there was no requirement, but verses tell us what an outsider had to do.

Exodus 12:48-50
48 "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. 49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." 50 Then all the sons of Israel did so; they did just as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron.

bugkiller · Jan 11, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
In John 14:15 Jesus says "If you love me you will keep my commandments" what exactly did Jesus mean by this? What are the commandments of Jesus? Are they the two commandments he gave at the last supper? To love God with all your heart soul and mind and to love others as Jesus loved you? It seems there's more than just to love God because Jesus would have said something like if you love me you will love others as well as me. John says in 1 john that Jesus's commandments were to believe in Jesus and to love others. So are those the commandments Jesus was talking about in John 14:15?

Does Jn 15:10 clarify anything on this issue? I think it does. The reason is it's a comparative statement. Jesus kept His Father's commandments and we know Jesus kept the 10 Cs.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 11, 2018

Ken Rank said:
He didn't give the 2 commandments at the last supper... he repeated already existing commandments at the last supper. He also stated that ALL the Law and Prophets hang on those two which doesn't mean those 2 negate the rest, it means those two define (or reveal the depth of) the rest.

Yeshua said He spoke the words of His Father and thus "my commandments" are the Father's commandments. Thus I personally believe He means the Law, the collection of commandments, the do's and don'ts. Obviously there are some things we can't do living in the nations without a Temple... and there are some things that one could argue are fulfilled. But the basic do's and don'ts... from not stealing to serving only God, from honoring parents to not engaging in homosexual or extra marital sex (and more) would be among them.

Then what commandments did Jesus take possession of in Jn 15:10?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 11, 2018

Soyeong said:
There is much more continuity in the Bible that you give it credit for. Faith in the promised Redeemer is of central importance in both the OT and the NT. In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and was glad, so people in the OT looked in faith to Messiah in the same way we do. It wasn't like they had no idea that there was supposed to be a Messiah until he showed up, but rather there are many prophecies concerning his coming. Everything in the Torah is there to teach us about the Messiah and how to have a relationship with him, so the goal of obeying the Law has always been a relationship with him for righteousness for everyone who has faith. The Law is the way (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so there is no distinction between following them, and obedience to the Law should never be understood as being apart from faith in Messiah.

While God promised land if they obeyed His commands, that was not the extent of the command, but rather they were given to teach us how to walk in God's ways, how to grow in a relationship with him, and thereby how to have eternal life. Again, it was not like Jews had never heard of eternal life until Jesus showed up.

FYI, there was no 000BC.

You can appeal to (trust and place confidence in) the law all you want. I'll appeal (trust and place all my confidence in) Jesus. I'll pass as Jn 5:24 says and you'll fail as the Scripture says even in the OT.

bugkiller

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