What Denomination are we? (preach it preacher!)

[Halbhh]

Which denomination we are (all of them!!) isn't the main point even, but I really loved this part when I caught this unexpectedly in the middle of the sermon when I turned on the radio and switched stations. I'd never normally listen to this station it was on at this time of day because I'd not be in the car...and I didn't expect to take this little car trip even 20 minutes earlier...

What denomination you are.



I know from the last times I heard him pastor Ford does pretty well usually at bringing the bible into our lives, and so it's not a surprise it was him, and so one could listen to this from the beginning, but the intro ends about at the 3:20-3:30 time or so (though the intro also is interesting in another way)...and then the really fun part about where I tuned in starts.

After you load the page in the link below, you click the "Listen" button, and get a pop up audio player. if you prefer you can of course grab the time slider and move it to about 3:20, or not, you're good either way, because I've heard enough to know this sermon is worth hearing.

What denomination are you?

Who Do You Serve?, Part 3

 

[Nj_]

Which denomination we are (all of them!!) isn't the main point even, but I really loved this part when I caught this unexpectedly in the middle of the sermon when I turned on the radio and switched stations. I'd never normally listen to this station it was on at this time of day because I'd not be in the car...and I didn't expect to take this little car trip even 20 minutes earlier...

What denomination you are.



I know from the last times I heard him pastor Ford does pretty well usually at bringing the bible into our lives, and so it's not a surprise it was him, and so one could listen to this from the beginning, but the intro ends about at the 3:20-3:30 time or so (though the intro also is interesting in another way)...and then the really fun part about where I tuned in starts.

After you load the page in the link below, you click the "Listen" button, and get a pop up audio player. if you prefer you can of course grab the time slider and move it to about 3:20, or not, you're good either way, because I've heard enough to know this sermon is worth hearing.

What denomination are you?

Who Do You Serve?, Part 3

Is this the same James Ford Jr. that supports BLM?

Also, as much as I agree that as Christians we are to have fellowship with one another (Even if we disagree on some topics, although I do believe there is a line that has to be drawn), I find this to be concerning, to say the least. First of all, you don't get to claim to be a Lutheran just because you believe in the 5 solas, lol! Also, I don't think it's a good idea to stand for essentially nothing doctrinally speaking, I'd like to know what he believes the Gospel is given he claims to be a mix of Lutheran, Pentecostal, Baptist, Charismatic, etc. I understand he does say doctrine is important, but then he proceeds to explain he wouldn't mind compromising it. This is why I believe Confessionalism is very important, and why I myself would not attend a non-Confessional Church. While the Gospel is the most central thing to a Church, believers should be able to agree on what the Gospel is, and the best way to ensure this is through Confessions so that people in the congregation (and across congregations, synods, etc.) have something that accurately summarizes what they believe. After all, "can two walk together unless they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3).

As much as I believe that there are some issues that are secondary, and we should find the right hills to die on, I am not willing to compromise basic beliefs, but this is what James Ford's teaching naturally leads to in my opinion.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Not sure what denomination that was, but there was a lady who would say that in a southern baptist church a few years ago.

I believe she no longer goes in person (for health reasons) but as long as she was at the church in person she would say that.

 

[Halbhh]

First of all, you don't get to claim to be a Lutheran just because you believe in the 5 solas, lol!

Ah, well, currently the church we are in is Lutheran, for about 12 years now. I studied the theology quite a bit to be sure it was generally ok with no really bad problems, and teach the confirmation class. Could I speak up on it? I think as much as most. I'm both Lutheran and Baptist and Catholic, and Methodist and Holy Roller (sure, why not, because when we attended one church for a time very near our house, my non believer step father called them the "Holy Rollers" and while he didn't meant it to be laudatory, nevertheless....I could never condemn them. But in a few years 3 times a week I did not see rolling on the floor, but maybe a few times with someone laying down (which was rare). If you like, ask me more about my experiences in the 8 or so denominations where I've attended at least 3 full normal services (or if you prefer instead more lengthy experience, then the 3 very different denominations over my life where it's been at least 200 services each), and I'll give you my impressions.

If you listen, what you should hear Ford say is something which would suggest to you we all as Christians should have things these different denominations emphasize as a central part of their identity.

Maybe also you'd hear something like we don't have the right to judge other denominations and condemn them, for those that believe the basic key things of Christianity, such as you'd find (this is my wording) in the Apostle's Creed.

 

[Halbhh]

Is this the same James Ford Jr. that supports BLM?

I've no idea on that, and...life experience and many deep conversations with many people shows me that a label or grouping may mean a very different thing another person than to me.

So I don't really know what they think until I hear enough of actual things that are specific. A label tells almost nothing. I believe that definitely black lives matter, just like all other lives, don't you?

We can't really know what a person is just from hearing that they are "Baptist" or "Catholic", and...

Here's a good experiment: try talking to 5 random Catholics (or just 5 random people you don't already know really well in your own church) for at least 30 minutes of unrushed conversation, with a listening attitude, so that they will feel safe to say what they think.

And bring up some interesting questions Christians discuss such as the Sunday sermon that was just preached. Or if it's a Friday evening, maybe instead a random interesting question people may have thoughts on such as whether the Garden of Eden is entirely literal or entirely parable, and so on interesting questions, and if you listen well, you'll hear 5 different views that are really distinct, after 20 or 30 minutes of good quality listening.

No 2 the same in any church even, is what I found.

So, to decide if a sermon is good, I'd listen to it and compare what what is said to scripture (which is quicker/easier to do if you first read fully through the Bible).

To judge a sermon: instead of asking for a group label, instead judge a sermon this way:
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

Because this is the much better way than using a label.

Or...trying hearing sermons from at least 20 different pastors in your own church group, and see whether they are all the same. In my experience each one is unique, and they have differing degrees of wisdom and ability to understand scripture.

 

[Halbhh]

but then he proceeds to explain he wouldn't mind compromising it.

Interesting! Where at in the time slider, and I'll listen for full context meaning of precisely what he refers to and let you know what I think.

 

[Nj_]

Ah, well, currently the church we are in is Lutheran, for about 12 years now. I studied the theology quite a bit to be sure it was generally ok with no really bad problems, and teach the confirmation class. Could I speak up on it? I think as much as most. I'm both Lutheran and Baptist and Catholic, and Methodist and Holy Roller (sure, why not, because when we attended one church for a time very near our house, my non believer step father called them the "Holy Rollers" and while he didn't meant it to be laudatory, nevertheless....I could never condemn them. But in a few years 3 times a week I did not see rolling on the floor, but maybe a few times with someone laying down (which was rare). If you like, ask me more about my experiences in the 8 or so denominations where I've attended at least 3 full normal services (or if you prefer instead more lengthy experience, then the 3 very different denominations over my life where it's been at least 200 services each), and I'll give you my impressions.

If you listen, what you should hear Ford say is something which would suggest to you we all as Christians should have things these different denominations emphasize as a central part of their identity.

Maybe also you'd hear something like we don't have the right to judge other denominations and condemn them, for those that believe the basic key things of Christianity, such as you'd find (this is my wording) in the Apostle's Creed.

How can you call yourself Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, and Holly Roller all at the same time? You can't be both Lutheran and Baptist, Lutherans literally affirm paedobaptism and baptismal regeneration while Baptists are credobaptists and oppose baptismal regeneration. I have to disagree with that last statement to a degree, I do think it's important to not just go and call anyone who isn't a part of my denomination a disbeliever, and I have myself greatly benefited from listening to sermons by Baptists and members of other denominations (A lot of my friends are Baptists and Lutherans). I, however, will not compromise some of my most basic beliefs for the sake of not offending them (And I know they won't either, and that at the end of the day we're still Christians. But this is where the important line is drawn, I know they are Christian but people like Jakes and their teaching end up just expanding the definition of Christian to the point that all kinds of very serious heretics and apostates make it into their definition of Christian). Now, there are, of course, some secondary issues which while important aren't salvific and I believe that while we can have civilized conversations about these topics, it's important to not start fighting and causing even more division over them, but there are some central issues which would prevent me from going to for example a non-denominational Church, or a Pentecostal Church. This is not to say that all non-denoms and pentecostals are unbelievers, as I have elsewhere stated, I do believe there are some saved people who attend these Churches, but I'm not going to ignore some of the very important doctrinal differences (which in various cases end up being salvific, as it is not that hard to find Christological heresies, Unitarianism, false gospels, etc. in these kind of Churches). I'm sorry, but I find some of these ecumenists like Ford to be spineless, I don't understand how someone could go to the extent of claiming that his church is a Pentecostal-Baptist-Methodist-Lutheran-Catholic-etc. church. It's one thing to be able to be in fellowship despite disagreements, and it's a whole other thing to have no backbone and just try to please every denomination.

Throughout Church history we have been able to see different people who have different positions on some non-salvific issues but still consider each other to be Christian, even within my own Reformed Tradition there's a major split between Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists, yet we don't go around claiming that the other group is not Christian, we might disagree in some topics, but we still agree in basic issues like the trinity, how man is saved, the hypostatic union, etc. but the natural consequence of ecumenism is considering anyone who claims to be a Christian a Christian, regardless of what they teach, this is completely unbiblical.

"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." - 2 John 1:9-11

 

[Nj_]

I've no idea on that, and...life experience and many deep conversations with many people shows me that a label or grouping may mean a very different thing another person than to me.

So I don't really know what they think until I hear enough of actual things that are specific. A label tells almost nothing. I believe that definitely black lives matter, just like all other lives, don't you?

We can't really know what a person is just from hearing that they are "Baptist" or "Catholic", and...

Here's a good experiment: try talking to 5 random Catholics (or just 5 random people you don't already know really well in your own church) for at least 30 minutes of unrushed conversation, with a listening attitude, so that they will feel safe to say what they think.

And bring up some interesting questions Christians discuss such as the Sunday sermon that was just preached. Or if it's a Friday evening, maybe instead a random interesting question people may have thoughts on such as whether the Garden of Eden is entirely literal or entirely parable, and so on interesting questions, and if you listen well, you'll hear 5 different views that are really distinct, after 20 or 30 minutes of good quality listening.

No 2 the same in any church even, is what I found.

So, to decide if a sermon is good, I'd listen to it and compare what what is said to scripture (which is quicker/easier to do if you first read fully through the Bible).

To judge a sermon: instead of asking for a group label, instead judge a sermon this way:
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

Because this is the much better way than using a label.

Or...trying hearing sermons from at least 20 different pastors in your own church group, and see whether they are all the same. In my experience each one is unique, and they have differing degrees of wisdom and ability to understand scripture.

I do believe black lives matter, and so do all other lives, but we both know that Black Lives Matter is an American Marxist Organization which despises Christianity and is racist itself. While we can't fully know what a person believes because he happens to attend a Baptist or Catholic Church, we can know that the Roman Church for example teaches a different gospel from that in scripture. Also, this is just another reason why I support Confessionalism, in Confessional Churches members all believe the same key doctrines and you don't have all of the confusion among members that you'll find in non-Confessional Churches.

While I do agree that to judge whether a sermon is good or not we have to examine it and compare it with Scripture as the noble Bereans did, but I also think that we are called to separate ourselves from heretics and their teachings. As I previously said, I do listen to a lot of sermons by Baptists and from time to time Lutherans precisely because while I have a lot of disagreements I still consider them to be Christian and have an overall sane doctrine, but I wouldn't listen to a Joel Osteen sermon, or something by a well-known Unitarian pastor. Now, I do think it's helpful to examine what they teach and expose their teaching in the light of Scripture (There are a lot of people who do this, I for example follow ReformedWiki2.0 in YouTube who exposes false teachers in order to warn the Church) but I wouldn't sit down with the intention of learning from them.

"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting." - Romans 16:17-18

 

[Halbhh]

in Confessional Churches members all believe the same key doctrines and you don't have all of the confusion among members that you'll find in non-Confessional Churches.

That's what I'm suggesting you listen to find out...

By listening over 3 to 8 hours over many days...

To a variety of members...

In an unrushed and friendly listening and accepting attitude....

If they sense you aren't being Doctrine Police as you listen, but are loving and non judgemental, then after 10 or 20 minutes someone will begin to tell you or indicate to you what they really think.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Which denomination we are (all of them!!) isn't the main point even, but I really loved this part when I caught this unexpectedly in the middle of the sermon when I turned on the radio and switched stations. I'd never normally listen to this station it was on at this time of day because I'd not be in the car...and I didn't expect to take this little car trip even 20 minutes earlier...

What denomination you are.



I know from the last times I heard him pastor Ford does pretty well usually at bringing the bible into our lives, and so it's not a surprise it was him, and so one could listen to this from the beginning, but the intro ends about at the 3:20-3:30 time or so (though the intro also is interesting in another way)...and then the really fun part about where I tuned in starts.

After you load the page in the link below, you click the "Listen" button, and get a pop up audio player. if you prefer you can of course grab the time slider and move it to about 3:20, or not, you're good either way, because I've heard enough to know this sermon is worth hearing.

What denomination are you?

Who Do You Serve?, Part 3

I'm a "mere Christian"...and one who happens to have a fancy for philosophy. And that's the fact, Jack!

 

[Nj_]

That's what I'm suggesting you listen to find out...

By listening over 3 to 8 hours over many days...

To a variety of members...

In an unrushed and friendly listening and accepting attitude....

If they sense you aren't being Doctrine Police as you listen, but are loving and non judgemental, then after 10 or 20 minutes someone will begin to tell you or indicate to you what they really think.

I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to what people believe, what I am saying is I will not associate myself with heretics and apostates. It is one thing to be in fellowship with people from other denominations with whom I disagree on secondary non-salvific issues, and it is a whole other issue to associate with and call heretics/apostates my brothers. Even if I were to find a Mormon I'd listen to what he has to say in order to be able to share the true Gospel more effectively and refute his beliefs in a loving manner, but I will by no means try and be in fellowship with them or call them brothers in Christ.

I'd recommend watching this video.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to what people believe, what I am saying is I will not associate myself with heretics and apostates. It is one thing to be in fellowship with people from other denominations with whom I disagree on secondary non-salvific issues, and it is a whole other issue to associate with and call heretics/apostates my brothers. Even if I were to find a Mormon I'd listen to what he has to say in order to be able to share the true Gospel more effectively and refute his beliefs in a loving manner, but I will by no means try and be in fellowship with them or call them brothers in Christ.

I'd recommend watching this video.

Indeed so!

And this is one invaluable reason to listen, so that I can better testify to them (that day or later) about what I have found, in words that make sense to them, like Paul did in various places, speaking to people in terms of where they were at.

If I've really listened to them, then they will be much more likely to listen to me.

Of course, we need to remember, we are commanded by Christ not to be judgmental (for example, this is one key meaning of Matthew 7:1-5). So, if we will listen to Him, and do as He says, then we will bear good fruit ourselves. We learn in John 15 that we can only bear good fruit by remaining in Him.