What day is the Sabbath?

[geocajun]

Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,
It was events like these which are recorded which started the tradition, not vice versa! The facts are BIBLICALLY CLEAR, breaking of bread was done "DAILY", and was NEVER exclusively referenced communion or a specific day.

and it is still done daily, but it is required of all Christians that they at least attend it on Sunday for the "Lords Day"

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,

like I said there is NO historical evidence that any Christians observed Sunday in the first century.

Before you go quoting from some source you think historically proves your point, you might want to know a little about it....try this....

Undoubtedly if you have done your research you will have realized that the first part of the Didache was probably written and referenced to in the scriptures. It was basically a Jewish handbook emphasizing the right and wrongs of behavior, to which many Catholic and Jewish sources agree. The latter part was added as late as the 4th century all the while being modified further from true apostolic teaching and more and more reflecting the man-made and pagan traditions that had been influencing the church. Other influences would include racism, greed, and politics. 

if you aren't reading the patristic quotes I proved proving my point then I see no reason to give you further explanation. I can only provide you books, you must read them.
And the Didache was a Catholic Catechism, not a Jewish handbook.
and it predates much of NT scripture and proves much Catholic tradition...

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by adam332
Do you want the 5th, 6th, 7th, etc... centuries as well?????

that wouldn't be a patristic writing then, but neither were your other references - which btw, were mostly filled with people like you looking at history and commenting on it, while the references I proved were strickly patristic (Christian fathers of the Church living the faith at the time they wrote it).

Or how about the Bible to show you that statement is false?

tell me exactly how those verses prove that the early Church observed the sabbath?

 

[Wonder]

I pray He shields both of my sides as I try to call a peace here....What if I were to try to explain why I see both sides as correct yet wrong...I will not point out the wrong but will tell why I see both sides right.
I can see Sunday...or the eighth day, Some call it the Lords day.
In Gen...God created man in 6th day....rested on the 7th....says no more. We then pick on the 8th day as the Lord God creates Adam. Adam was not given the instructions to take dominion, nor to multiply, until after the fall,. He was formed to till the ground. To keep the garden....Looks kinda like he was put here to tear up whatever man couldn't .
I see the Lords day as the millennial reign ..... Adam was to die the day he ate the fruit....he died within that 1000 yrs. I see the day of the Lord as 1000 yrs .... where Gods said His day was evening and morning. Sounds like 24 hours to me....but not so with the Lord.
A piece of my heart: I wish people would just ask people why they do what they do instead of condemming one another....If one believes that the Lord knows what He is doing then we need to see why one does what he does.
The Sabbath is the day God set aside for rest...we need that. And believe it should be kept...
Sunday is not a Sabbath as in resting but it should be a day of acknowledgement of the Lords works.
I think that most of the OT is the work of the Lord....that is why He could say that He came to His and they didn't know Him. The Most High spoke the Ten commandments and from there the laws of moses is the laws of the Lord. He goes forward to explain what God meant by the 10 commandments.
As if I told a child to clean his room.....stashing clothes under the bed etc. isn't cleaning it, so I have to follow through with what clean means.... After watching the child struggle with trying to do as instructed but is unable, I then go and show the child ... work with the child until he understands...really there was only one "law", clean your room, but because lack of understanding I then add....hang your clothes...dust tables etc.
Many people see that it was Jesus dealing with people in the OT...and in the NT...that is because it is His work.
When He said if you love me keep my commandments.....they would be the so called laws of moses. By keeping them we get to know Him...and best of all we learn what out Father means by His 10 commandments.
Lets open our minds and trust in our Lord....in His love

 

[thetruthseeker]

Originally posted by Wonder
I pray He shields both of my sides as I try to call a peace here....What if I were to try to explain why I see both sides as correct yet wrong...I will not point out the wrong but will tell why I see both sides right.
I can see Sunday...or the eighth day, Some call it the Lords day.
In Gen...God created man in 6th day....rested on the 7th....says no more. We then pick on the 8th day as the Lord God creates Adam. Adam was not given the instructions to take dominion, nor to multiply, until after the fall,. He was formed to till the ground. To keep the garden....Looks kinda like he was put here to tear up whatever man couldn't .
I see the Lords day as the millennial reign ..... Adam was to die the day he ate the fruit....he died within that 1000 yrs. I see the day of the Lord as 1000 yrs .... where Gods said His day was evening and morning. Sounds like 24 hours to me....but not so with the Lord.
A piece of my heart: I wish people would just ask people why they do what they do instead of condemming one another....If one believes that the Lord knows what He is doing then we need to see why one does what he does.
The Sabbath is the day God set aside for rest...we need that. And believe it should be kept...
Sunday is not a Sabbath as in resting but it should be a day of acknowledgement of the Lords works.
I think that most of the OT is the work of the Lord....that is why He could say that He came to His and they didn't know Him. The Most High spoke the Ten commandments and from there the laws of moses is the laws of the Lord. He goes forward to explain what God meant by the 10 commandments.
As if I told a child to clean his room.....stashing clothes under the bed etc. isn't cleaning it, so I have to follow through with what clean means.... After watching the child struggle with trying to do as instructed but is unable, I then go and show the child ... work with the child until he understands...really there was only one "law", clean your room, but because lack of understanding I then add....hang your clothes...dust tables etc.
Many people see that it was Jesus dealing with people in the OT...and in the NT...that is because it is His work.
When He said if you love me keep my commandments.....they would be the so called laws of moses. By keeping them we get to know Him...and best of all we learn what out Father means by His 10 commandments.
Lets open our minds and trust in our Lord....in His love

Hi Wonder,

I respect your opinion. However, the bottom line is not feelings, idealogies or compromise. It is: "Thus saith the Lord."
Sunday, was never set aside by God. Iniquity is iniquity. To compromise the word of Jesus is to make all of it void. Meaningless, this is spiritual confusion.

John 4:23,24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[adam332]

geocajun,
you said;
"it is required of all Christians that they at least attend it on Sunday for the "Lords Day""

There is NOWHERE in the scripture nor in any first century Christian writing the validate such a claim.

you said;
"if you aren't reading the patristic quotes I proved proving my point then I see no reason to give you further explanation. I can only provide you books, you must read them.
And the Didache was a Catholic Catechism, not a Jewish handbook.
and it predates much of NT scripture and proves much Catholic tradition..."

Your first mistake is assuming I didn't already know those quotes, which I did. The was no such institution as the RCC in the first century so your claim opposes itself. Those links express the views of the scholars which tell us over and over that the Didache was modified and added to after the first century. You obviously know very little on the subject of the Didache, may I suggest you take some time and learn a little more about it's history and what actual dates the majority of theologians and scholars have given it. I can find NO AUTHORATIVE SOURCE that hints the Didache was written solely in the first century.

We are not here to prove Catholic tradition, we are here to address Biblical law.

you said;
"that wouldn't be a patristic writing then, but neither were your other references - which btw, were mostly filled with people like you looking at history and commenting on it, while the references I proved were strickly patristic (Christian fathers of the Church living the faith at the time they wrote it)."

I am not claiming that their writing is inspired nor a guage for Biblical truth. These are comments from Historians of the time and later ages which have documented in their research the keeping of the Sabbath by Christians. You made a claim that NO Christian ever kept the Sabbath and that is false, I proved it with historical writings and scripture. Please do not go off on some other tangent, it is a simple matter of whether you whether your right or wrong with that statement, which I have clearly shown you to be wrong.

There are other opposing ideas with your doctrine, you infer that Sabbath keeping is Judaizing, then you show scripture that tells us the Sabbath was made for man. Well, was it made for man or was it made for Jews?

Christ's statement says volumes if you let it. When was the sabbath made? On the seventh day of creation. Who was it made for? Man. Were there any Jews for it to be given to at that time? No, Israelites did not exist for another 2300 yrs. Woman was made for man as well, are you going to try and tell us that this means we are no longer bound by marriage? By your way of interpretation, since we can break the Sabbath because it was made for us, then we must also be allowed to commit adultery, because woman was made for man. You see your interpretation is very inconsistent.

Christ's comments show that whatever relationship that man had with the Sabbath at the time it was made , was still the same. IOW, nothing had changed. "Therefore a keeping of the Sabbath remains for the people of God"(Heb. 4:9).

Also you say that you claim that the Bible and apostles endorse Sunday keeping.... well let's see if your church agrees with that, shall we.....?

Peter R. Tramer Editor of Catholic Extension Magazine 1934

"We say this church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial Laws of the Old Testament; and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say "Yes, the church made the change, made this law, as she made many other laws,.....It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit legislature, demand the observance of Sunday, of
which there is nothing in the Bible."

"The Converts Cathecism of Catholic Doctrine" handbook, by Rev. peter Geiermann,C.SS.R.

Page 50
"A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plentitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."

Roman Catholic: No such law in the bible.

"Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday.
We have the commandment of God, given to Moses, to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is, the seventh day of the week, Saturday.
Today, most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman] church outside the Bible."
Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947

Question: "Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?"
Answer: "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174

Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the NEW LAW, that he himself has explicitly substituted sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is entirely abandoned.
It is now commonly held that God simply gave His church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as holy days.
The church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies 1936, vol. 1 p. 51

Wish you guys would make up your mind, did the apostles and the Bible change it or not? You say yes, but many of your authorative Catholic peers say no.

Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedia, New Edition says this about Sabbath;

"observances followed on the Sabbath are derived from Biblical injunctions.
Jews and Christians alike are instructed to rest and to refrain from certain types of work.
Strictness of Sabbath observance among Jews and Christians was characteristic of early times and of the Middle Ages (q.v.); among the orthodox it continues today. Most Christian churches have transferred to the first day of the week many features of the Sabbath."

Everyone but you seems to be aware that the change was not made by the disciples nor was ever Biblical instruction, but was purely the choice of a church. You are simply giving a Johnny come lately justification for why you cling to man-made tradition and ignore His commands. The church realizes that it is not Biblical and brags that the fact that it is not in the Bible yet, they still are able to change it so successfully, is evidence of there divine authority. When you claim that it is in the Bible, what you are doing is telling us that your church doesn't have the evidence of it's authority, and therefore contradicting the very basis of the RCC claims on the subject.

Another conflict that can be found in your comments is that you obviously realized that the OT is what was taught in the first century churches prior to cannonization. Yet, you then try to maintain that they were Sunday keepers. There is only one OT reference to the first day of the week, so but what means or instruction did they decide to change the Sabbath?

Your ideas and comments conflict with itself, your church, history, common logic, and scripture. You have not a leg to stand on with this man-made doctrine of yours, and are obviously unknowledgable to the point of giving your position even less credibility. Might wanna' try debating this with people who know less on this subject than you do, not more. You are clearly out of your league here. Come back and talk with me with about five yrs more of exhaustive study on the subject under your belt and ya' might last a little longer.

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,
you said;
"it is required of all Christians that they at least attend it on Sunday for the "Lords Day""

There is NOWHERE in the scripture nor in any first century Christian writing the validate such a claim.

show me where scripture says everything must come from scripture!
Scripture is a Tradition, much like what I am pointing out.

Your first mistake is assuming I didn't already know those quotes, which I did.

I did not assume a thing, I simply put them out there to prove my point which they do.

The was no such institution as the RCC in the first century so your claim opposes itself.

there still is not a RCC... its The Catholic Church and your referring to the Latin rite of it.

``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be;
even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D.

Those links express the views of the scholars which tell us over and over that the Didache was modified and added to after the first century. You obviously know very little on the subject of the Didache,

show me some references to back your claim please.

We are not here to prove Catholic tradition, we are here to address Biblical law.

the bible is a result of Catholic tradition - I suggest YOU learn some history...

You made a claim that NO Christian ever kept the Sabbath and that is false, I proved it with historical writings and scripture. Please do not go off on some other tangent, it is a simple matter of whether you whether your right or wrong with that statement, which I have clearly shown you to be wrong.

uhh, any christian who keeps the sabbath is doing so because they do not understand christianity, they are an ex-jew keeping some tradition, or a judahizer heretic.

There are other opposing ideas with your doctrine, you infer that Sabbath keeping is Judaizing, then you show scripture that tells us the Sabbath was made for man. Well, was it made for man or was it made for Jews?

both.

Christ's statement says volumes if you let it. When was the sabbath made? On the seventh day of creation. Who was it made for? Man. Were there any Jews for it to be given to at that time? No, Israelites did not exist for another 2300 yrs. Woman was made for man as well, are you going to try and tell us that this means we are no longer bound by marriage? By your way of interpretation, since we can break the Sabbath because it was made for us, then we must also be allowed to commit adultery, because woman was made for man. You see your interpretation is very inconsistent.

this is why you need an objective authority... (the Church Christ founded) you have no idea what your talking about, but you are at least consistant in your conjecture.

Christ's comments show that whatever relationship that man had with the Sabbath at the time it was made , was still the same. IOW, nothing had changed. "Therefore a keeping of the Sabbath remains for the people of God"(Heb. 4:9).

that verse in context does not say keep the levitical sabbath, it mearly says keep a day of rest. which of course, since the bible is Catholic, the Catholic church teaches...

"We say this church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial Laws of the Old Testament; and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say "Yes, the church made the change, made this law, as she made many other laws,.....It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit legislature, demand the observance of Sunday, of
which there is nothing in the Bible."

somehow this person is an authority on Catholic doctrine?

Page 50
"A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plentitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."

sounds reasonable - not technical enough for this conversation, but good enough for pastoral teaching..

"Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday.

nor do we find that everything must be kept in the bible, or that all the apostles wrote even what they did or changed..

I gotta go eat, I didnt have time to comment on the rest of your lay person comments about Christs Church.

 

[seangoh]

Originally posted by geocajun
All, It has been said in this thread that there is no historical proof that Christians do not celebrate the sabbath day, but rather the Lords Day on Sunday instead.

Brother geocajun, next time be more careful with what u say. In fact there's much more history about sabbath keepers than sunday keepers

http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by seangoh
Brother geocajun, next time be more careful with what u say. In fact there's much more history about sabbath keepers than sunday keepers

only if you consider the Jews the sabbath keepers.. the SDA is a more modern schism right?

 

[seangoh]

http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm

Sorry this link was supposed to be visited. Have a look at it.

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by seangoh
http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm

Sorry this link was supposed to be visited. Have a look at it.

I did, for a second, seems like a lot of useless information to be honest. God has spoken to us through his Church and thats good enough for me. I only come to here to make sure you guys are aware of the truth. if you choose to taken only a part of Catholic teaching (the bible) [and take it out of context] and not others, thats your perogative.

 

[thetruthseeker]

Originally posted by geocajun
I did, for a second, seems like a lot of useless information to be honest. God has spoken to us through his Church and thats good enough for me. I only come to here to make sure you guys are aware of the truth. if you choose to taken only a part of Catholic teaching (the bible) [and take it out of context] and not others, thats your perogative.

Hi Geocajun,

I want to state again that you are my brother in Christ. Everything that I have said and that I am saying is out of love.

It sounds and looks like you are very confused about your own thoughts. You vasilate continually. There does not seem to be any order or ryhme or reason to your thinking.

This would change if you would take Jesus, not the Pope, Mary, priest, seriously. Learn about your church history and what you believe in. Learn about the truth and not the culture of religion.

Settle on what you believe, then you can have a serious conversation with someone about religion.

Evidently, you have strong convictions. That is not enough, neither is philosophysing. Words are just words. Anyone can type in words--lots of words. However, there has to be an orderly, consistant truth, there must be sound reasoning and common-sense. Try reading the Bible, at least the Douay-Rheims (a Catholic Bible) but read. Pray before you read. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[seangoh]

Originally posted by geocajun
I did, for a second, seems like a lot of useless information to be honest.

The link that i gave was of the SAME nature of the information you gave us. The only difference is it's more structured and contains much more proofs that Sabbatarians existed throughout earth's history in each century.

I ask that u visit the link again and see for yourself. If u still say it's useless information, then what u have shared with us is counted as useless information too.

As i've said before, i request that u take time to reply to our messages and don't act rashly. The messages that u've sent implies that u've not exercised much fairness in weighing everything we said and your own thoughts. Please look through what we've said and think first before replying.Thank u.

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by thetruthseeker
Hi Geocajun,

I want to state again that you are my brother in Christ. Everything that I have said and that I am saying is out of love.

It sounds and looks like you are very confused about your own thoughts. You vasilate continually. There does not seem to be any order or ryhme or reason to your thinking.

This would change if you would take Jesus, not the Pope, Mary, priest, seriously. Learn about your church history and what you believe in. Learn about the truth and not the culture of religion.

Settle on what you believe, then you can have a serious conversation with someone about religion.

Evidently, you have strong convictions. That is not enough, neither is philosophysing. Words are just words. Anyone can type in words--lots of words. However, there has to be an orderly, consistant truth, there must be sound reasoning and common-sense. Try reading the Bible, at least the Douay-Rheims (a Catholic Bible) but read. Pray before you read. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

Truthseeker, this may suprise you, but I haven't always been Catholic.. but I have as long as I can remember studied history, especially theological history. I was even a 32' freemason at one time (for what its worth). I hated the Pope, and the idea that someone could stand between me and God, etc... typical protestant stuff.. but then I couldn't understand the trinity either, since I couldn't really find anyone to explain that to me. I was basically agnostic for a while simply because objective truth was unattainable. Finally through my studies, I determined the only way I could rationallly be a Christian is to be Catholic. I cannot be Christian and reject Christianity - I am either Catholic or Atheist - no comprimising.
Or else, basically I am saying God is subject to my interpretation and not objective.
Sure, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you, I wish you well. The leaders of all 36,000 denominations claim to be led by God to the Truth. There are lots of spirits out there, you may be being led by the Holy Spirit, and I pray you are, but you really have no way of knowing - really. But we do know that Jesus founded his Church on Peter, and that he sent his spirit to guide it as his body.
The Catholic Church is 2000 years old... this is older than any form of existing government or institution in the world...our only link to ancient civilization and the closest we can get to objective teachings.
You go where you choose, but I am happy to be home in the Catholic Church.

 

[coastie]

MOD HAT ON

the portestant vs. Catholic discussion is over now... back to the original topic

MOD HAT OFF

 

[coastie]

As for the topic, can someone explain to me why it matters what day the Sabbath is?

I don't see a problem as long as one day a week is set aside as "the sabbath" to keep holy.

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Hi,
LOVE for Christ is the real issue. The Sabbath day was not just any of the seven day ones. One day was set aside for HOLY use. It was the Memorial of creation. "Thy name O' Lord endureth forever, and thy MEMORIAL THROUGH OUT ALL GENERATIONS" In Psalms somewhere?

What might have been the first sermon Adam & Eve heard the first day of their life from their creator??
Do you remember the testing of the forbidden tree? Do we know where that 'serpent' originally came from? See Rev. 12

We might think of seven women (days) before us? One is sanctified as your wife for holy use. Does it make any difference to which one you want to be with? Remember LOVE is the issue.

Anyway. The MOTIVE for any converted person is LOVE. A re/created LOVE that will serve their Master. If ye love me, keep my commandments He says.

Perhaps I will start a new thread topic with a heading like "Two kinds of Professed Seventh-Day-Sabbath Keepers" Doing this will open up a lot of future knowledge that most know little about. Such as Matt. 25's parable?
It might not be understood at first, yet, it will be as it unrolls. If it is kept one can refer back as understanding is gained.

Bottom line: Sabbath keeping?? We are not guilty for what we do not know, unless we reject the opportunity! See Hosea 4:6
P/N/B/

 

[adam332]

Truthseeker,

good to see ya' to. Thanks for being polite and telling me I have spunk, because I was always under the impression I was rude.

Geocajun,

you said;

"show me where scripture says everything must come from scripture!"

That's easy....

2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Col. 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Psa. 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Eph. 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Thes. 2:13 "...the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth..."

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1Cor. 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Acts 5:38 "...Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:"

Mark 8:33 "...Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men..."

Mat. 16:23 "...Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

Isa. 29:13 "...with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Rev. 20:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Deu. 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Pro. 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Psa. 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

You said;

"Scripture is a Tradition, much like what I am pointing out"

Wrong, scripture is truth.

Do you not agree that the Lord has used a donkey, to get His point across, (Num. 22:28)?

Do you not agree that the Lord used the devil to test Job, to get His point across, (Job 1-2)?

Do you not agree that even after Moses disobediently smote the rock twice, the Lord continued to use him?

Do you not agree that the Israelite's have a long history of disobeying and angering God?

Do you not agree that Christ continually rebuked the religious leaders on their additions to religious matters?

Do you not agree that even though, Christ showed the religious leaders to be full of error, and wrongfully adding to spiritual matters He was still able to use these people throughout their existence to preserve His word?

If God has proven time and time again that He can use the devil, a donkey, disobedient men, and men full of error filled doctrine to do His will, then why do you think that the doctrines and traditions of those who aided in the preservation of the canon have to be right?

You are basically asserting that since the early church helped preserve inspired writing, then they also must be treated as inspired.

That is a completely un-Biblical, and inconsistent reasoning! The Bible shows countless times that God can and will use who ever He see's fit, regardless of how righteous or evil they are, and regardless of how full of error their own doctrine is.

Using non-Biblical sources as a guage for truth on religious matters, is completely against what the Bible teaches. Any group that teaches their own traditions as truth is in strict violation of the Bible. 

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by adam332
Truthseeker,


Geocajun,

you said;

"show me where scripture says everything must come from scripture!"

you failed, not one single verse you supplied said anything remotely like "All doctine must come from scripture" OR "Scripture is SUFFICIENT" (only profitable)

You said;

"Scripture is a Tradition, much like what I am pointing out"

Wrong, scripture is truth.

now thats just silly... scripture is a book, God is truth. Dont go making an idol out of scripture and thinking it IS God.

Do you not agree that the Lord has used a donkey, to get His point across, (Num. 22:28)?

Do you not agree that the Lord used the devil to test Job, to get His point across, (Job 1-2)?

Do you not agree that even after Moses disobediently smote the rock twice, the Lord continued to use him?

Do you not agree that the Israelite's have a long history of disobeying and angering God?

Do you not agree that Christ continually rebuked the religious leaders on their additions to religious matters?

Do you not agree that even though, Christ showed the religious leaders to be full of error, and wrongfully adding to spiritual matters He was still able to use these people throughout their existence to preserve His word?

yes

If God has proven time and time again that He can use the devil, a donkey, disobedient men, and men full of error filled doctrine to do His will, then why do you think that the doctrines and traditions of those who aided in the preservation of the canon have to be right?

well so do you really, as the list of books in your bible is a Catholic doctrine.

You are basically asserting that since the early church helped preserve inspired writing, then they also must be treated as inspired.

"preserve" yes, but also determine which is and which ISN'T inspired. This men led by God who did this. I have not said the "Church must be treated as inspired" - do not put words in my mouth. But I did say that you would know nothing of the bible had it not been for the sacred tradition of men.

That is a completely un-Biblical, and inconsistent reasoning! The Bible shows countless times that God can and will use who ever He see's fit, regardless of how righteous or evil they are, and regardless of how full of error their own doctrine is.

yes, the bible does show that, and it also shows Jesus establishing a Church complete with councils, a Pope, and men to lead it. Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it, and then sent the Holy Spirit to protect it.

Using non-Biblical sources as a guage for truth on religious matters, is completely against what the Bible teaches. Any group that teaches their own traditions as truth is in strict violation of the Bible. 

your list of books that complete the bible is extra-biblical. your contradicting yourself.

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11)

The Church is the pillar and foudation of TRUTH, not Scripture! (1 Tim. 3:15)

 

[seangoh]

Originally posted by coastie
As for the topic, can someone explain to me why it matters what day the Sabbath is?

I'll be glad to provide a brief understanding of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was instituted right after creation of the world.

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and mad" Gen 2:2,3

As you can see, the Seventh Day was specially blessed by our Heavenly Father. He set it apart (sanctified) and rested from his work.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. "Exo 20:8-11

The Sabbath is reiterated by the giving of the 10 commandments in written form to Moses.

Verse 8 starts off with "Remember". This implies pointing back to the past when the Sabbath was instituted.

If that was not enough, the whole command adds in Verse 11 what really happened in the past. IOW, it explained the creation and the time when God blessed the Seventh-Day.
This emphasis on the Sabbath makes it for certain that there was indeed something special about this day and that God wanted us to be sure that it's the Seventh-Day, set apart for rest.

Lastly, notice that the Sabbath is identified with the creation of the world. So by resting on the Sabbath, we are also reminded of the creation.

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. "Rev 14:6-7

This passage found in the 3rd angel's message calls us to worship God and gives detail of what this God does. IOW, to make certain, it showcases the acts of God (making heaven, earth, sea).. Immediately, it reminds you of creation. It also reminds u of the Sabbath.

In conclusion, the Sabbath existed from the beginning and will exist until the end.

Without fail, I've had abundant blessings just by resting on the Sabbath day itself. And since i know that God has blessed this day, i always look forward to this day when it approaches.It's our Lord's desire for all of us to come to him and rest in His presence on the day He has sanctified.