What Counts As A Human Being To God?

[awkwardsmile]

I've heard it said that aborted infants and the mentally ill (including those in a vegetative state) make it into Heaven. But at what point does God recognize something as human? If a 9-month fetus can go to heaven, can a 5-month fetus go to heaven? Moreover, can a 1-month embryo or even a sperm that has just mated with an egg go to heaven? If something is incapable of thinking, how is it possible that God can judge that person's character anyways?

 

[cubinity]

Perhaps the more important question is:

What counts as a human being to you?

Does intelligence make a two-cell mutating blob any less worthy to save then the 47-yr-old Transportation Security Officer who just unapologetically broke the seal of your -ostomy bag and sent you onto your airplane with urine stained pants?

The truth is, for me, sometimes the one is easier to petition for than the other. Which one, however, depends heavily on your ethics and your personality.

You can't change God, so it's not worth it to fret over his values. However, you can change you, and the first step to successful change is to make a decision about how you'd like to change.

So, what counts as a human being to you?

 

[awkwardsmile]

Perhaps the more important question is:

What counts as a human being to you?

Does intelligence make a two-cell mutating blob any less worthy to save then the 47-yr-old Transportation Security Officer who just unapologetically broke the seal of your -ostomy bag and sent you onto your airplane with urine stained pants?

The truth is, for me, sometimes the one is easier to petition for than the other. Which one, however, depends heavily on your ethics and your personality.

You can't change God, so it's not worth it to fret over his values. However, you can change you, and the first step to successful change is to make a decision about how you'd like to change.

So, what counts as a human being to you?

Being non-religious, I actually have a rather sterile view of what counts as a "human being". The cut off line is the capability of the "being" to reason. That is to say, I think the cut-off line that defines humanity is the ability to think rationally and logically, which people generally only develop in their first years.

However, the reason why I asked that question is the idea that any cut-off line (for surely there must be one) that God would place as a possible candidate for salvation or damnation would be controversial to people here at the very least. How do we know which things are on God's "watch-list"? Of course, this leads to topics like abortion and all the rest of that fuzz.

 

[cubinity]

Being non-religious, I actually have a rather sterile view of what counts as a "human being". The cut off line is the capability of the "being" to reason. That is to say, I think the cut-off line that defines humanity is the ability to think rationally and logically, which people generally only develop in their first years.

However, the reason why I asked that question is the idea that any cut-off line (for surely there must be one) that God would place as a possible candidate for salvation or damnation would be controversial to people here at the very least. How do we know which things are on God's "watch-list"? Of course, this leads to topics like abortion and all the rest of that fuzz.

The only problem I have with your litmus test for "human" is that there are many people who no longer possess the ability to reason. Are you suggesting that they are not human?

This discussion does not only lead backward to abortion, but also forward to the elderly and even right here, regarding you and I and how we see one another.

I come from a tradition that remembers that people of a darker shade were once considered non-human, and we wish never to go there again. To make an ability like reasoning a litmus test for humanity, or assuming we can make any clear call on what God considers human vs. non-human, risks proving ourselves no less bigoted than those who considered others non-human on any other arbitrary basis.

I like how you're thinking, and just glad that you're thinking about how you think. You've got to really consider the ramifications of your judgments, though.

 

[awkwardsmile]

The only problem I have with your litmus test for "human" is that there are many people who no longer possess the ability to reason. Are you suggesting that they are not human?

This discussion does not only lead backward to abortion, but also forward to the elderly and even right here, regarding you and I and how we see one another.

No, I'm saying that they would have already died and if there is a God that they would already be up there with Him. I believe that what's left is simply a vegetable.

I come from a tradition that remembers that people of a darker shade were once considered non-human, and we wish never to go there again. To make an ability like reasoning a litmus test for humanity, or assuming we can make any clear call on what God considers human vs. non-human, risks proving ourselves no less bigoted than those who considered others non-human on any other arbitrary basis.

I am also unsure about the legitimacy of defining "humanity" clearly but the thing is that you asked me that very question, and I answered. This is just my opinion, but knowing at what point God begins his own definition of humanity can help us define our laws accordingly.

P.S: I think a better replacement for "human being" would be "one to whom the gates of heaven and hell are opened for", as that is what I had really meant.

 

[cubinity]

No, I'm saying that they would have already died and if there is a God that they would already be up there with Him. I believe that what's left is simply a vegetable.

I am also unsure about the legitimacy of defining "humanity" clearly but the thing is that you asked me that very question, and I answered. This is just my opinion, but knowing at what point God begins his own definition of humanity can help us define our laws accordingly.

P.S: I think a better replacement for "human being" would be "one to whom the gates of heaven and hell are opened for", as that is what I had really meant.

I see what you're trying to get at with wanting to know God's definition, but I think we both see the huge pitfalls in assuming we can know that.

To name of a few of those pitfalls:
1) If we claim that some idea or definition is God's, then when we manage to debunk that idea or definition, we also hurt the credibility for our arguments about God.
2) If we claim that some idea or definition is God's, then we are falsely saying that we have some right to act on that with disregard to the ethical consequences under the assumption that God ultimately has the moral high ground.
3) If we say that some idea or definition is God's, then we are expected to show some proof or evidence supporting that claim, which also leads to debunking and hurting credibility.

P.S. I think the gates of heaven are open to everyone and everything God wants. Therefore, if God wants my cat (something we can all agree is not human) in heaven, then my cat is going to heaven. Therefore, that would be a silly, irrational, and certainly an unscientific definition for what we're talking about (humans).

Now, I appreciate that you provided your definition for "human" at my request. I gave my feedback to that definition. That definition is something we can discuss, but God's definition is, well, maybe more debatable than discussable. Know what I mean?

 

[dana3262]

A human comes into existence the moment they are conceived. Prior to that there is no human.
A human is made up of the soul and the mechanism it drives, the biological body.
God is responsible for the new human coming into existence.

Therefore, "what counts as a human being to God?" A human being.
As prior to being a human (before being created by God) there is no you.

 

[awkwardsmile]

So from the moment the sperm enters the egg, there is subsequently a human? What if the egg dies immediately afterward? Would taking a morning-after pill be therefore tantamount to murder?

Logically, the line has to be drawn somewhere by God. But any line drawn by God would have important ramifications in this world as well.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I've heard it said that aborted infants and the mentally ill (including those in a vegetative state) make it into Heaven. But at what point does God recognize something as human? If a 9-month fetus can go to heaven, can a 5-month fetus go to heaven? Moreover, can a 1-month embryo or even a sperm that has just mated with an egg go to heaven? If something is incapable of thinking, how is it possible that God can judge that person's character anyways?

A sperma or ovum would be no more a human being than a skin cell.

However as far as I'm aware at fertilization we have something that is genetically human. It's certainly not a tomato plant or a poodle.

I think a better way of asking the question isn't so much "what is a human", since that's more-or-less a scientific query (though I can see a potential philosophical dimension to the question as well), whereas "what is a person" might be more appropriate.

Personhood is something a bit more abstract, whereas I think it's fairly obvious that a human zygote is human--whether or not that zygote has personhood is a much deeper and much bigger philosophical question.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tz620q]

A sperma or ovum would be no more a human being than a skin cell.
However as far as I'm aware at fertilization we have something that is genetically human. It's certainly not a tomato plant or a poodle.

I can follow your reasoning here. Though the sperma or ovum can be seen as a human cell, they are not unique in their DNA from their progenitor. However after fertilization, we have a new DNA formed that is unique. So, just like an acorn has all the DNA necessary to create a new and unique oak tree; this zygote can grow to form a unique adult human being.

I think a better way of asking the question isn't so much "what is a human", since that's more-or-less a scientific query (though I can see a potential philosophical dimension to the question as well), whereas "what is a person" might be more appropriate.

Personhood is something a bit more abstract, whereas I think it's fairly obvious that a human zygote is human--whether or not that zygote has personhood is a much deeper and much bigger philosophical question.

-CryptoLutheran

This is actually very perceptive. The word, person, comes from the Latin, persona. This word had been used to designate the mask worn by actors. These masks served two purposes. First, they were built to amplify the voice. Second, their visage was used to signify the role that the wearer was playing at the time. It wasn't until the 500's AD that the term persona was used to designate the actual human being playing the role and not the fictional character. Christian thinkers needed to create a word that helped define the category of unique beings to which certain rights would apply, not on a collective basis, but on an individual basis.

 

[solarwave]

This seems like a near impossible question.

I believe babies go to heaven and maybe also babies in the womb, but if its from conception it would seems there will be a huge amount of people in heaven who were never near being a person as we understand it.

I have no idea how to define 'person' to be honest.

 

[apm437]

It's important to distinguish between body and soul in this case. A soul doesn't require that a body be fully developed for it to subsist in (or one outside the womb for that matter which is why abortion is wrong). The body continues to grow after birth, too. As for heaven, we are perfected if we make it there anyway, so I don't think it really matters to God what stage or condition our body is in.

 

[solarwave]

When does a body get a soul then if we do?

 

[awkwardsmile]

When does a body get a soul then if we do?

Precisely. There must be a point where one becomes "a person" in God's eyes, but it would be irrational to place such a point anywhere as the ramifications would mean that anything before the point is not a person and anything beyond is. Such a sharply divided line cannot possibly exist without some sort of catalyst, which there isn't.

 

[dana3262]

So from the moment the sperm enters the egg, there is subsequently a human? What if the egg dies immediately afterward? Would taking a morning-after pill be therefore tantamount to murder?

Logically, the line has to be drawn somewhere by God. But any line drawn by God would have important ramifications in this world as well.

You will have to ask God the exact specifics but I imagine as soon as the two become one the human is formed and the soul comes into existence.

What constitutes murder is a matter of opinion in todays society. You will have to find that out for yourself too, or you can be wise and take Gods word for it.

 

[solarwave]

Precisely. There must be a point where one becomes "a person" in God's eyes, but it would be irrational to place such a point anywhere as the ramifications would mean that anything before the point is not a person and anything beyond is. Such a sharply divided line cannot possibly exist without some sort of catalyst, which there isn't.

I would have no problem if there was a clear line, but there isn't. Conception might be the most obvious, but even that takes time and I wouldn't have any problem with a birth contol which killed a fertilized egg.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

This seems like a near impossible question.

I believe babies go to heaven and maybe also babies in the womb, but if its from conception it would seems there will be a huge amount of people in heaven who were never near being a person as we understand it.

I have no idea how to define 'person' to be honest.

Here's how I see it: trust that God can figure out what we can't. I think it's important for Christians to be proponents of life and to emphasize the dignity and value of life. The abortion issue for me is a mixed bag in that I regard the termination of the unborn to be unethical; at the same time life is really messy and I would rather women be able to go to a doctor to have an abortion then to revert to a time when women were having back alley or "DIY abortions". I'm willing to acquiesce particularly when the issue is further complicated by the health of the mother and other down and dirty real life complexities.

The reason I bring all this up is because I think we, as Christians, should stress the life of the unborn child, that life is a beautiful, lovely, good and God-created thing. At the same time I think we would do a far better service toward the support of life by working toward betterment in the world around us. That is, when we realize that in societies where quality of life is improved the number of abortions is lessened, where there are networks of support for the poor and underprivileged, there is an environment of support also for the child coming into the world.

And the reason I bring that point up is because it can oftentimes be far easier to simply be anti-abortion then to actually be pro-life. That we are willing to philosophize on when body and soul are joined in the womb and debate on the issue of personhood, but we would do a much better service toward that goal by living out the Christian mission of God's kingdom by doing more than moralizing and doing kingdom work by being a people who work toward the betterment of our neighbors and being servants of the least of these.

None of this is an attempt to be critical of anyone, but simply draw attention to a larger ethical focus of Christian mission in the world centered around the kingdom of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[solarwave]

Here's how I see it: trust that God can figure out what we can't. I think it's important for Christians to be proponents of life and to emphasize the dignity and value of life.
-CryptoLutheran

I agree with this, but I can't help but think that love is greater than love and sometimes maybe the more loving thing to do is not life. This is more obvious in the case of euthanasia and it can also have its place in abortion too.

At the moment though I havn't got a good enough theory of ethics is know what is right in the case of abortion.

 

[PeterKovac]

Jeremiah: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I sanctified you.

..maybe soul exists before its born with human body. And maybe there are no such things as hell or heaven in sense of eternal punishment or reward after ones death.