• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

what constitutes happiness?

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
as Aristotle wrote ``Everyone agrees that the supreme Good is happiness, but people disagree over what constitutes happiness``so i want to know what you think. and why you believe it.

Aristotle did an excellent job exploring that issue.

I think that, in essence, the good life is that which is most harmonious with our natural function, which in essence is to live rationally by understanding the world in conceptual terms, and that includes our ability to communicate with and to coordinate our activities with other human beings. If I had to define human beings, I would call them the storytelling animal.

From our natures, we may make some reasonable conclusions about what life as a human being properly entails. To put that another way, just what sort of species are we? How do we survive and flourish as human beings? For instance, our capacity for language is both a social and a conceptual capacity. Language helps us to enter into mutually beneficial relationships with others, and labeling the contents of our experience also helps us to think abstractly.

I don't think that one person's flourishing is identical with another person's flourishing, because one person isn't identical with another. So, I can't give a precise list of ingredients of human flourishing. A recipe that is optimal for one individual won't be optimal for another.

However, abstractly speaking, I think that human beings need a good character rooted in rationality, a society to live in (not being a hermit), good friendships, creative work, and self-respect. This is not an exhaustive list.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Following Mark, with Virtue Ethics we need a model for human virtue, a sense of psychology. Virtues by themselves only tell you that you need to reach the telos or point of maturity; they don't tell you how to reach this end, or who to copy to reach this end.

And in this sense, following Mark again, there can arguably be different models to follow. Christians choose Christ and Christlike people. Atheists choose Satan and his evil demon rationalitehhhh. You know.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,493
20,780
Orlando, Florida
✟1,517,065.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I think Aristotle was mostly right but the Greeks erred in assuming human nature is rational, and elevating the intellect above the heart (thymos). What is good for us is not always what will make sense, sometimes things are counter-intuitive. I believe experience, not reason, is the best teacher.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think Aristotle was mostly right but the Greeks erred in assuming human nature is rational, and elevating the intellect above the heart (thymos). What is good for us is not always what will make sense, sometimes things are counter-intuitive. I believe experience, not reason, is the best teacher.

"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards." -- Kierkegaard
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
I think Aristotle was mostly right but the Greeks erred in assuming human nature is rational, and elevating the intellect above the heart (thymos). What is good for us is not always what will make sense, sometimes things are counter-intuitive. I believe experience, not reason, is the best teacher.

They didn't think that. Aristotle was very clear about the rational, semi-rational, and non-rational "souls" we as human beings have. This is a big point in his understanding of moral character, which belongs to the semi-rational.

Incidentally, the only way for experience to be a teacher is if you use reason to understand the lesson. And that's even if there is something "counter-intuitive" to learn.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They didn't think that. Aristotle was very clear about the rational, semi-rational, and non-rational "souls" we as human beings have. This is a big point in his understanding of moral character, which belongs to the semi-rational.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Well, I think FireDragon's point was that the end for Aristotle was contemplation, rather than action or experience. That's where I disagree with him, and am even a bit shocked at how the Nichomachean Ethics ended on this point.

Contemplation is definitely a part of the virtues, the but grand telos, equivalent to happiness, equivalent to the psychological prototype a society has in mind which forms the basis of their virtues, is arguably someone who acts first and thinks later.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well, I think FireDragon's point was that the end for Aristotle was contemplation, rather than action or experience.

That was only one form of flourishing that he had identified -- the life of the philosopher (or scholar). The life of honor (focusing on action and experience) is also fully a form of flourishing, even though he gives more praise to the life of contemplation because it has fewer loose ends, and is therefore more self-contained (and maybe gives better job security ;) ).

Contemplation is definitely a part of the virtues, the but grand telos, equivalent to happiness, equivalent to the psychological prototype a society has in mind which forms the basis of their virtues, is arguably someone who acts first and thinks later.

Aristotle wouldn't disagree with you. His ethics has a strong action component. It isn't all about contemplation. The virtues in particular are habits, and as such are generally about "acting first and thinking later".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That was only one form of flourishing that he had identified -- the life of the philosopher (or scholar). The life of honor (focusing on action and experience) is also fully a form of flourishing, even though he gives more praise to the life of contemplation because it has fewer loose ends, and is therefore more self-contained (and maybe gives better job security ;) ).

Right. But I coulda sworn he held that the philosopher's life (of contemplation) is highest.

Aristotle wouldn't disagree with you. His ethics has a strong action component. It isn't all about contemplation. The virtues in particular are habits, and as such are generally about "acting first and thinking later".


eudaimonia,

Mark

And maybe he would say that we act first and think later to a point to where our habits allow us to think all the time.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Right. But I coulda sworn he held that the philosopher's life (of contemplation) is highest.

Yes, highest in some sense. But still only one form of flourishing.

I don't think that Aristotle intended his students to view the life of honor as inferior or defective compared to the life of contemplation, as if one was unambitious and took the "wrong" path in life. He wasn't saying that absolutely everyone should be some sort of scholar. Not everyone is cut out for that life. Other forms of flourishing are fully appropriate for most people.

There was some debate in those days about the nature of eudaimonia. For instance, is it complete, or might it have loose ends? If one dies before having achieved certain goals, is one's life therefore incomplete because of those loose ends? Aristotle noted that the life of contemplation is likely to have fewer (if any) loose ends, and so it may be somewhat better in that respect.

Later on, the Stoics would abandon that completeness criterion for eudaimonia. I think one of them described life as layered (like an onion), where each layer is a portion of one's life that may be complete in itself, without only the outermost layer potentially being unfinished (but that's okay, just be stoic about that).

And maybe he would say that we act first and think later to a point to where our habits allow us to think all the time.

No, I don't think that is his point. Virtues are a time-saver in that one doesn't need to take the time to think out every little action-decision beforehand, which would be impossible in most circumstances due to time pressure. But whether thought is needed before an action, or useful as a double-check after the action, it is always needed.

One might speculate that perhaps he wanted people to spend as little time as possible engaging in practical thought in favor of theoretical thought of the sort found in the life of contemplation, but I doubt that was ever his goal. We need moral virtues simply because we are human beings.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
as Aristotle wrote ``Everyone agrees that the supreme Good is happiness, but people disagree over what constitutes happiness``so i want to know what you think. and why you believe it.

To me, this is like asking someone, which perfume smells the best?
 
Upvote 0

True Scotsman

Objectivist
Jul 26, 2014
962
78
✟24,057.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
as Aristotle wrote ``Everyone agrees that the supreme Good is happiness, but people disagree over what constitutes happiness``so i want to know what you think. and why you believe it.

That's because each person is different with different talents, levels of intelligence and different personalities. There's no one concrete answer but on a philosophical level I like what Ayn Rand had to say. She said happiness was "a state of non-contradictory joy". That means a Joy reached honestly and in accordance with one's values.

The happiest moment in my life was the achievement of a goal that I set, which everyone told me was impossible, and which I finally reached after working literally day and night for four years. When I finally did it I felt like I could die in that moment with no regrets. That is happiness.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
That's because each person is different with different talents, levels of intelligence and different personalities. There's no one concrete answer but on a philosophical level I like what Ayn Rand had to say. She said happiness was "a state of non-contradictory joy". That means a Joy reached honestly and in accordance with one's values.

Yeah, she was dealing with "happiness" on a more emotional level there, but I do like what she has to say on the subject. When I speak of flourishing, I'm referring more closely to her concept of "man's survival qua man", or the rational life.

The happiest moment in my life was the achievement of a goal that I set, which everyone told me was impossible, and which I finally reached after working literally day and night for four years. When I finally did it I felt like I could die in that moment with no regrets. That is happiness.

That's awesome!


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

fireof god98

Member
Jul 24, 2013
674
34
canada
✟23,498.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Liberals
How does happiness deal with objective truth?

there is only one truth regarding what happiness is. or has my ignorance overtaken me? to be honest i was hoping a christian would help explain the idea of god being the only source of happiness
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
as Aristotle wrote ``Everyone agrees that the supreme Good is happiness, but people disagree over what constitutes happiness``so i want to know what you think. and why you believe it.

I'ld say: a sense of accomplishment.
 
Upvote 0