What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

Jeffwhosoever said:

Is this an honest request because you are interested in becoming a Christian?

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I would be happy to answer your question, but I don't think it pertains to this thread. Send me a PM and I'll answer your question. In the meantime, please answer the subject question of this thread.

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place. So I am curious if there are certain conditions which if in place would cause you to revise your belief that a god exists?

Akureyri said:

I would be happy to answer your question, but I don't think it pertains to this thread. Send me a PM and I'll answer your question. In the meantime, please answer the subject question of this thread.

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place. So I am curious if there are certain conditions which if in place would cause you to revise your belief that a god exists?

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It makes no sense to me that there is no Creator. Also, we could not create or love without God. I also know for a fact that there is a God because I experience him transcendentally. And, if Karl Rahner is correct, so do you.

I will always know that there is some spiritual presence in and, of course, beyond the universe. I suppose if I were convinced that this spiritual presence was not personal and that the resurrection of Christ did not happen, I might become a Buddhist.

Akureyri said:

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place. So I am curious if there are certain conditions which if in place would cause you to revise your belief that a god exists?

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What it would take is, a total void of any personal, intelligent, willful display of evidence for our reality . Then the atheistic worldview of naturalism thru sole materialism would start to have some remote chance of credibility .

Please consider ---

What BOTH sides have as evidence ; does the following portray a Mind at work or the cause of blind, random, accidental collisions of matter and unorganized raw chemicals without a plan, ultimate purpose , or any direction in the least ? :

1. A universe that exploded into being from nothing ...and one that occupies immense personal , intelligence, and a specific language-information system(viz. The processes in any DNA molecule) .
2. A Universe with over 150 fine tuned , life enabling constants for this tiny, remote planet called Earth which is incredibly suitable for our sustenance in addition to many Physics Constants all working in delicate unison ...some to the 120th decimal point critical tolerance otherwise we arent here.
3. Life that has been observed to arise only from existing life and which has never been observed to arise spontaneously (to which even world reknown atheist Biologists calculate having occured at a faith busting 1 in 10^40,000 probability). LIfe that consists of thousands and even millions of volumes of empirically detectable specified complexity and is therefore, more than just the nonliving chemicals it contains. Life that changes cyclically and only within a limited range. Life which cannot be built or modified gradually (ie: irreducible complexity) . Life that is molecularly isolated between basic types (theres no ancestoral progression at the molecular level). And life that leaves a fossil record of fully formed creatures that appear suddenly, do not change, and then disappear suddenly.



4. There are MANY anthropics to our universe must all work in perfect collaboration with one another to incredibly close tolerances (some to a 120th decimal point maximum allowable deviation otherwise Earth isn't here and neither are we...and most of the Anthropics coming with at least a 10^30 th max. allowable deviance) : Reasons To Believe : Design Evidences in the Cosmos (1998)



5. Good site for genuine open minded Atheists : Answers for Atheists and Agnostics.

Based on creation, the next step for any Person is to want to connect a couple dots to get to know this revealed Creator on a personal dynamic basis ; but sadly the great majority of present non-Followers don't want to due to personal pride of not wanting to be owned . To those who can get past their pride, they WILL find their ultimate purpose to their life : Making God #1 and making Oneself #2 . When we make ourselves #2 , we actually find Ourselves as well as longlasting ultimate fulfillment, purpose, and joy because our lives have been properly RE-ordered...and this is what God our Creator promises. Its free for the taking. Regards.

Akureyri said:

Help me understand. It sounds like you're saying that faith is necessary whenever one doesn't have proof. Do you equate faith with belief?

If enough evidence were brought forward to change your viewpoint on something, would you drop your faith? Think about when you were a child. Perhaps you believed that Santa Claus and the tooth fairy were real. But then some evidence was brought forward so that you dropped your faith and/or belief. And think about countless people of different religions (Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, etc.) who dropped their belief and adopted a belief in the Christian God. Obviously something occurred to get them to drop their belief/faith.

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Faith is necessary when one doesn't have proof. Beliefs are very hard to get someone else to understand because they are the choices of each individual person. I do equate faith with belief because to me when you put faith in someone you believe it will work. We put so much faith in everyday things that go beyond religion. All one person can do is look at what evidence there is and make up their own mind. I don't really know how else to put it.

Scott1979 said:

Faith is necessary when one doesn't have proof. Beliefs are very hard to get someone else to understand because they are the choices of each individual person. I do equate faith with belief because to me when you put faith in someone you believe it will work. We put so much faith in everyday things that go beyond religion. All one person can do is look at what evidence there is and make up their own mind. I don't really know how else to put it.

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Atheism demands faith in its Belief System also .. the belief that a personal Theistic Creator isn't necessary because all that we have including the highly personal , highly intelligible , information, and our non material makeup (mind, will, emotions, abstract thinking, reason, etc..) came from materials only and came about 'naturally' . That requires so much more faith than a personal intelligent Creator which gave us personal, intelligent , information in our cells, and non material makeup -- in fact....it is absolutely necessary to have such a Creator .

So what faith is really, is, the certainty that a theistic Creator exists / is involved in the sustenance of our cosmos / periodically intercedes in mankind to perform medical miracles / and desires a personal relationship with Us who he created everything for . It is a connected of a couple of dots and is not a blind faith at all since its based on good scientific evidence , reason, and good rationale. The Creator even went further than just making an awesome creation...he showed us without a doubt that he is real and personal, by entering time and space to live 33 earthly years and showed us what the Godhead is like , provided a way for us to be reconciled to his extremely holy and pure Person by dying on the cross for our sins, then allowing us to stir death in the face and laugh about it for just on the other side we can finally live with him forever . The historical evidence for Christ coming and living with us quite impressive when One takes a look at it , both from an internal standpoint and external evidence and scientific evidence . Its all readily available for the true Seeker .

Akureyri said:

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place. So I am curious if there are certain conditions which if in place would cause you to revise your belief that a god exists?

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Something like Alzheimer's, because I've experienced too much to believe otherwise.

SavedByGraceThruFaith said:

Well if the universe and living things never existed, then I would not believe that there was no God, because I would not exist.
But the universe, living things, and I do exist.

It is interesting that since you said that if evidence for God were shown to you, that you would change your mind. So you are not an absolute atheist. You are more an agnostic who if they had to chose would chose atheism. Technically it is logically contradictory to claim that there is no God. So you are more an honest agnostic in that you are not an absolute atheist.

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With respect to any gods that aren't logically impossible, I am an agnostic atheist. With respect to gods that are logically impossible (such as one that can do anything and knows everything), I am a gnostic atheist. My willingness to accept evidence isn't an indication of agnosticism or atheism. It is an issue of being honest with myself in the face of evidence.

Just some little thought experiments.

Suppose someone went to a large city like New York. The person observes all the complex, ordered and functional arrangement of buildings, streets, traffic lights, the movement of food, materials, waste disposal, etc.

Which would be a logical conclusion?
1. that it all came about by random chance over time without intelligence
2. intelligent beings designed and built the city

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Good question. Most likely intelligent people designed the city. Intelligent people have also designed cities that are in considerable disarray.

Suppose someone goes to a library. They pick up a book and look at the ordered arrangement of letters, chosen from a small alphabet. The letters are evenly arranged in exact rows and columns. The person decodes the language and then reads a wonderful story with plot, characters, scene descriptions, etc. They then read the other books. Some tell how to build airplanes, radios, gardens, etc.

Which would be a logical conclusion?
1. that it all came about by random chance over time without intelligence
2. intelligent beings made and wrote the information in the books.

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Once again, most likely intelligent people wrote the books.

The fact is that the things in the world, especially living things including mankind, are way more complex, ordered and functional than a city such as New York. The workings of a living cell is vastly more complex than New York. The information content in the DNA codes is more than that in a library of books and has the very instructions to run a cell and a living creature such as man.

Which would be a logical conclusion?
1. that it all came about by random chance over time without intelligence
2. intelligent being or beings made created it all.

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You have one hit and an unknown number of misses. How many times have species come into existence and then died out because they weren't as "perfectly designed" as humans?

Here is what the word of God says much more elegantly and it is the most awesome statement of science ever uttered.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

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Can you please share with me how and why you came to the conclusion that if something is unexplained, it must have been caused by a god?

One last point. The Holy Bible also predicts that the true implications of the vast complexity of life proving God beyond all doubt would be revealed precisely at our present time.

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How do you know the Bible predicts these things?

Jeffwhosoever said:

Since you have responded to almost everyone except me, can I assume you aren't here to learn about Jesus, as I have asked you directly above? If not, why are you posting in this forum?

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What conditions would have to be in place for you to revise your belief that a god exists?

oi_antz said:

Is your faith based on any evidence?

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Yes.

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What evidence is your faith based on?

Steeno7 said:

That's very interesting. When & where did you encounter the living Jesus Christ?

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For the first time, 27 Years ago on the couch in my living room...and every moment and place since.

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How do you know it was the living Jesus Christ which you had encountered?

steve_bakr said:

It makes no sense to me that there is no Creator.

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If there must be a creator, then who created God?

Also, we could not create or love without God.

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How do you know we could not create or love without God?

I also know for a fact that there is a God because I experience him transcendentally. And, if Karl Rahner is correct, so do you.

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How do you know what you experience transcendentally is a god?

I will always know that there is some spiritual presence in and, of course, beyond the universe.

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How do you know there is a spiritual presence both in this universe and beyond this universe?

I suppose if I were convinced that this spiritual presence was not personal and that the resurrection of Christ did not happen, I might become a Buddhist.

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What if some archaeologists reported that they had discovered that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred. Let's say you heard about it on the Discovery channel and on CNN, but you never spoke directly with the archaeologists. Would that be enough to convince you?

Akureyri said:

If there must be a creator, then who created God?

How do you know we could not create or love without God?

How do you know what you experience transcendentally is a god?

How do you know there is a spiritual presence both in this universe and beyond this universe?

What if some archaeologists reported that they had discovered that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred. Let's say you heard about it on the Discovery channel and on CNN, but you never spoke directly with the archaeologists. Would that be enough to convince you?

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There is a lot of good theology out there, such as Foundations of Christian Faith, by Karl Rahner. Nay-saying is an easy copout from taking the time to learn it.

Akureyri, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will convince you my faith experience with God through Jesus Christ is true because in you heart you have already been given the most profound and compelling evidence for God outside of the kind of personal experience of fellowship and communication and love that Jesus has provided me... that evidence is the equivalent of God parting space-time, poking His "head" into our universe and saying: "Hi! I'm God."

Every time you think a thought, breath air, see your computer screen, make sense of what I write, make judgments about me, express love, feel pain, eat food, take a dump, sleep, dream, smell, have a wound heal, get a pimple, blow your nose, think about the future, remember the past, reproduce, look at the stars, look at the cell, ponder which developed first: flight or the instincts necessary to fly and land safely, imagine how the heck nothing could expand into a super-complex universe with intricately balanced physical laws, galaxies, stable stars in a relatively safe zone in a galaxy, planets at just the right distance, just the right sized moon, oceans, atmosphere, duck-billed platypus', bombardier beetles, giraffes, woodpeckers, fireflies, the Bible, fulfilled prophecy, Jesus of Nazareth, an empty tomb, hundreds of transformed disciples who would rather die than deny what they preached, which they would have absolutely known for sure to be either true or false, yet they all suffered persecution, and many died rather than deny it, written words recording it all...

up to here, God has given this to you, and yes, He has parted the heavens and said hello to you. you can either respond to that, or do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary for you to convince yourself that He hasn't. For me...

those written words moved something in my soul, promising God living in me, leading me, comforting me, strengthening me, transforming me... believing, praying, accepting... a pure white liquid light presence glowing in my heart, a still small voice telling me the right thing to do, a vision of the souls of two believers I was praying with, looking like pure white light human shaped spirits, eventual demonic attacks against my mind (also spoken of by the Bible), falling, failing, despairing, being called out of it by love, being restored, trying again, having hope and purpose and a reason to be. Learning how to truly live, truly love, truly die to myself and serve God and others before myself... failing, falling, despairing, being lifted up by faith, persevering, hoping... ongoing.

Believe what you want... I cannot fathom any circumstances that could convince me there is no God. I still wonder, I still doubt some things, but faith in God is just not negotiable.

food4thought said:

Akureyri, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will convince you my faith experience with God through Jesus Christ is true because in you heart you have already been given the most profound and compelling evidence for God outside of the kind of personal experience of fellowship and communication and love that Jesus has provided me... that evidence is the equivalent of God parting space-time, poking His "head" into our universe and saying: "Hi! I'm God."

Every time you think a thought, breath air, see your computer screen, make sense of what I write, make judgments about me, express love, feel pain, eat food, take a dump, sleep, dream, smell, have a wound heal, get a pimple, blow your nose, think about the future, remember the past, reproduce, look at the stars, look at the cell, ponder which developed first: flight or the instincts necessary to fly and land safely, imagine how the heck nothing could expand into a super-complex universe with intricately balanced physical laws, galaxies, stable stars in a relatively safe zone in a galaxy, planets at just the right distance, just the right sized moon, oceans, atmosphere, duck-billed platypus', bombardier beetles, giraffes, woodpeckers, fireflies, the Bible, fulfilled prophecy, Jesus of Nazareth, an empty tomb, hundreds of transformed disciples who would rather die than deny what they preached, which they would have absolutely known for sure to be either true or false, yet they all suffered persecution, and many died rather than deny it, written words recording it all...

up to here, God has given this to you, and yes, He has parted the heavens and said hello to you. you can either respond to that, or do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary for you to convince yourself that He hasn't. For me...

those written words moved something in my soul, promising God living in me, leading me, comforting me, strengthening me, transforming me... believing, praying, accepting... a pure white liquid light presence glowing in my heart, a still small voice telling me the right thing to do, a vision of the souls of two believers I was praying with, looking like pure white light human shaped spirits, eventual demonic attacks against my mind (also spoken of by the Bible), falling, failing, despairing, being called out of it by love, being restored, trying again, having hope and purpose and a reason to be. Learning how to truly live, truly love, truly die to myself and serve God and others before myself... failing, falling, despairing, being lifted up by faith, persevering, hoping... ongoing.

Believe what you want... I cannot fathom any circumstances that could convince me there is no God. I still wonder, I still doubt some things, but faith in God is just not negotiable.

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"Faith in God is just not negotiable" for those of us who have been fortunate enough to accept God's grace, which he offers freely to all persons at all times.

Do you think there would be less religious debate if God came down here and offered tours of Heaven?

steve_bakr said:

There is a lot of good theology out there, such as Foundations of Christian Faith, by Karl Rahner. Nay-saying is an easy copout from taking the time to learn it.

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I feel I asked you some very fair questions. May you be kind enough to take a little bit of time and answer them. Thanks.

If there must be a creator, then who created God?

How do you know we could not create or love without God?

How do you know what you experience transcendentally is a god?

How do you know there is a spiritual presence both in this universe and beyond this universe?

What if some archaeologists reported that they had discovered that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred. Let's say you heard about it on the Discovery channel and on CNN, but you never spoke directly with the archaeologists. Would that be enough to convince you?

Akureyri said:

I feel I asked you some very fair questions. May you be kind enough to take a little bit of time and answer them. Thanks.

If there must be a creator, then who created God?

How do you know we could not create or love without God?

How do you know what you experience transcendentally is a god?

How do you know there is a spiritual presence both in this universe and beyond this universe?

What if some archaeologists reported that they had discovered that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred. Let's say you heard about it on the Discovery channel and on CNN, but you never spoke directly with the archaeologists. Would that be enough to convince you?

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In order........

1. No one made God who is the first cause. An Infinite Cause is necessary to bring into existence , from nothing, a Finite effect such as our Cosmos. God is infinite...always was and always is and always will be. He has no beginning and no end. God is self sustaining unlike Ourselves.

2. Because things like love, reason, abstract thinking, rationale, logic, will, emotions, etc....are completely impossible of coming from Materials and raw Chemicals leftover from a Big Bang. When you start interjecting into a Finite existence things like the highly personal, highly intelligent, and enormous specified information by way of instructions (as in DNA).. such things can only come from an existing like source. It is ludicrous to believe love can come from materials because things like love and and logic cant be weighed nor can they come from inanimate objects .

3. We all experience the creation about us..and this creation is filled with so much complexity, engineering, and design required for Us to be on this particular planet....that it is logical our personal Transcedent Creator is trying to get our attention. We need not have met the Creator face to face to know that he has showed himself thru his creative works --- hardly anyone meets the Creator/Builder of a used house they buy , but the Owner knows it took one because of the leftover personal and intelligent based effects. As a result of creation , which is the biggest miracle of all, this Creator promises that if we are willing to move closer in his direction to engage in getting to know him deeper and genuinely....they he will show even more of his presence to that person ; this comes in the way of him coming to live in our Souls upon receiving his global offer of salvation in Christ. After we do, a definite change is felt , realized, an inward change takes place followed by outward actions of a totally different kind than prior . There is a power that transforms the hardest of hearts to one of purity, righteousness, and great love --- no psychology book or pulling up on ones own bootstraps can achieve a Soul changing drastic experience .

4. Because God himself is Spirit and he gave us a spiritual nature incorporated as part of our Soul . We were made with the capacity to know God spiritually because that was his desire and so we are all crafted with this nature. Some choose to excersise it while others don't . When we have faith in Gods existence and his love toward us....it opens the channel for spiritual connection to take place. And it does starting with receiving Christ who is the Creators name as Savior , King, and Lord --- the change in myself after many years of worldly living due to God residing in and working in my life....has produced incredible results . Something I never knew was possible.

5. I wouldn't believe THAT Archeologist because Archeology has already uncovered so much to confirm Christ existed , was crucified, and arose in addition to the internal and external historical evidence for the N.T. being a very credible historical document ...in fact...it far surpasses ancient notables such as Plato an Aristotle in evidence . The N.T. has been placed at 99.9 percent accurate as far as textural criticism is concerned and the Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 confirmed that the N.T. Manuscripts went completely unchanged except for some grammatical errors and punctuation . Further, we have the N.T. manuscripts coming in as the closest to any event of ancient history to the actual event (25 years) which is more than 50 times closer than most other ancient historical events. And these events were eye witnessed by the very Authors of the N.T. In addition, external historical evidence is plentiful attesting to Christ, his death, and resurrection from NON Christian Historians from that time period . The historical evidence and archeological evidence for Christ , combined, should be enough for any serious Seeker to cast his vote for Christ and the only thing left (which is the hardest to do) , is to submit Ones entire life to Christ because it hits at our very Pride and Ego in allowing Ourselves to be OWNED by Another. But for those who can, it is a welcomed change and one with no regrets both now, and most certainly after physical death which is the gateway to spending an eternity with this Creator who loves us almost beyond belief . Best of all...its totally free because God wants as many of Us to come to him, as possible. I trust one day you will make this crucial decision...and only then....will it become increasingly clear to you who this Christ truly is .

I can recommend a very very good book for all the evidence you could possibly require for God, The Bible , Christ, his death, his resurrection...while at the same time the book scrutinizes the competing Atheist view (all under one convenient cover. It is by far, my favorite book) .

Meanwhile, here is a great site for the honest Seeker : http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Dave.

For me, to prove God does not exist, you have to:
1. prove that you can create real intelligence on computers, not the fake AI, has to be able to feel, learn (not the training algorithms, the free adapt of not programed environments, the Tuning test is a start, but falls far short.) , create.
2. prove that you can digitize animal/human brains (sort of like the first one)
3. Need fossil records or living examples of the missing links, i.e. explain how the egg appears without chicken, or how this was transited.
4. Explain how gravity works, how magnetics/electricity interchange work. I know the phoneme, I know the mathematic formulas on them, I just can't find an explanation.

If you can do the above, then I will say you are 50% there. The hardest part is there is no way to prove God (a being that is very powerful and just) doesn't exist.

dcalling said:

For me, to prove God does not exist, you have to:
1. prove that you can create real intelligence on computers, not the fake AI, has to be able to feel, learn (not the training algorithms, the free adapt of not programed environments, the Tuning test is a start, but falls far short.) , create.
2. prove that you can digitize animal/human brains (sort of like the first one)
3. Need fossil records or living examples of the missing links, i.e. explain how the egg appears without chicken, or how this was transited.
4. Explain how gravity works, how magnetics/electricity interchange work. I know the phoneme, I know the mathematic formulas on them, I just can't find an explanation.

If you can do the above, then I will say you are 50% there. The hardest part is there is no way to prove God (a being that is very powerful and just) doesn't exist.

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And...youd have to prove that Computer assembled itself from materials, raw chemicals, in the form of an explosion that coelesed into a box with buttons and a built-in mouse (even over billions of years as if that is going to help) .