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What caused the Universe?

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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I know, but science is nothing without humans to make it what it is, agreed?
Understood. My point was, when I say I trust science, I am not saying that I have trust in the authority of people with a degree in science. I trust the process of science.
So this force that formed the universe and humans and science is greater than science and humans and the universe. Agreed?
You are comparing apples and oranges. People can do things the laws of quantum mechanics can't, but the laws of quantum mechanics can do things people can't. This really is a silly question.


Science is a process that humans have formed, but it's not what formed the universe or humans. Since this is true we can know that the true answer about origins will not come from the human made process of science, but rather, the true answers will come from the force that formed the universe and humans and science.
My experience is that we learn more about nature by applying the principles of science than by listening for the force behind the universe.

Do you have any reliable way of knowing what the force behind the universe is telling you about creation?

how can you know it's true if there isn't a truth revealer about everything you're learning?
Science reveals truths. If it didn't, we wouldn't be able to communicate here via computers.


They do have true belief because they've accepted a conveyed truth, but what matters is if what they believe is actually true or not and the only way to figure that out is to test their beliefs against other conveyed truths to see if it holds up and if it doesn't hold up then they can either admit error and accept the actual truth or continue in the delusion. The point is that there has to be an objective truth that can inform us of our delusions and either free us from the delusion if we accept it or keep us in the delusion if we don't accept it.

Muslims believe God created/formed heaven and earth, which is true, where they get confused is that they think God doesn't mind if they keep sinning because they think He loves to forgive them and that he always wants to be forgiving people forever and ever. This isn't true

Ah, we should test the claims that Muslims hear from their "revealer" to see if they are true.

I say we should do the same thing with the claims you get from your "revealer".

And science is the best way I know to test truth claims.
 
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MasonP

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Instead they cleaned out the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and what do you have now?
One of the largest mosques in eastern Europe.
That's just one of many huge mosques opened in the UK in last 20 years, while Christianity is dying Islam is flourishing, ignorance and superstition will be everywhere for a long time to come, men have been taking two steps forward and one backwards for thousands of years, we won't see it but religions will eventually be a thing of the past and taught in schools as history, but I expect they will be the cause of millions of deaths before that happens.
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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... ignorance and superstition will be everywhere for a long time to come,
Speaking of ignorance ... if scientists get their wish and Christianity goes bye-bye (i.e., forced to leave itself at the front door), the result is that you'll see a lot more mosques in your backyard.

I hate to break this bad news to you, but Christianity is going to be here until it goes away ... upward.

Then your scientists can dance in the streets again* with your Muslim friends.

(But not for long ... we'll be back! :))

* And don't ask why I said "again." I won't tell you.
 
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MasonP

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Speaking of ignorance ... if scientists get their wish and Christianity goes bye-bye (i.e., forced to leave itself at the front door), the result is that you'll see a lot more mosques in your backyard.
I hate to break this bad news to you, but Christianity is going to be here until it goes away ... upward.
Then your scientists can dance in the streets again* with your Muslim friends.
(But not for long ... we'll be back! :))
* And don't ask why I said "again." I won't tell you.
And the cow jumped over the moon..........
 
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Subduction Zone

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What's that supposed to mean?

That Christianity is welcome to stay?
He seems to believe that you were doing the equivalent of repeating a nursery rhyme.

By the way, no one will force Christianity to leave. It will simply die out as so many other religions have. Insisting that your members ignore reality is never a winning tactic AV.
 
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AV1611VET

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By the way, no one will force Christianity to leave. It will simply die out as so many other religions have.
And then what? the U.S. will become another U.K.?

Close the Metropolitan Tabernacle, open another one of the largest Mosques around?

Is that what you're looking forward to?

The evaporation of a love-thy-neighbor "religion," while a "convert or die" religion moves in to fill the void?
 
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HitchSlap

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And then what? the U.S. will become another U.K.?

Close the Metropolitan Tabernacle, open another one of the largest Mosques around?

Is that what you're looking forward to?

The evaporation of a love-thy-neighbor "religion," while a "convert or die" religion moves in to fill the void?
This makes you sound like a scared little child.
 
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MasonP

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And then what? the U.S. will become another U.K.?
Is the US as evangelical as it was 10 years ago?
Close the Metropolitan Tabernacle, open another one of the largest Mosques around?
Not again please.
Is that what you're looking forward to?
Que Sera, Sera
The evaporation of a love-thy-neighbor "religion," while a "convert or die" religion moves in to fill the void?
Love thy neighbour? don't make me laugh, Christianity is still as hate filled in America as it's always been.
 
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MasonP

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It seems to me through self-experience that consciousness is what causes the universe.
The universe was here before we got here and will be here long after we're gone, our short existence won't make a noise or leave a stain.
 
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Subduction Zone

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And then what? the U.S. will become another U.K.?

Close the Metropolitan Tabernacle, open another one of the largest Mosques around?

Is that what you're looking forward to?

The evaporation of a love-thy-neighbor "religion," while a "convert or die" religion moves in to fill the void?

Why do you always go to extremes? The same "silver bullet" that will kill Christianity will also kill Islam. Neither one seems to be able to handle reality and logic all that well.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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I'm aware of the fact that human scientists are your revealer of truth, even though you admit they may never know the entire truth, so logically the entire truth will not come from human scientists. This alone, should cause you to reconsider your sources if you value truth and logic. If your fine with never knowing the truth about existence, then we can stop talking now.



At best, you know there are some things you don't currently know, not that you cannot know.



I know the heavens and earth were formed by God and I know this because I first accepted it as true, I believed it. One must first accept something as true before they can say they know it's true, this is a fact. A person can't say they know something without first accepting a truth - believing. If you think a person can then explain how it's possible for a person to convey knowledge to others without first accepting a truth?
Your logic seems to be:

1. I would like to know about origins.
2. Only a revealer can tell me about origins.
3. Therefore there is a God.

Your logic is full of holes. I strongly disagree with your premise #2. But even if your premise #2 is true, it does not follow that you would need to get what you want, and thus establish #3 as true.

Your logic has the same flaw as this logic:

1. I like chocolate.
2. Only the Easter Bunny can bring chocolate.
3. Therefore there is an Easter Bunny.

Same basic argument, same flaws.
 
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rockytopva

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Before the beginning - Before the beginning there dwelt God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and a host of angels. As three is a number of perfect union, so the angels existed in three groups...

1. Michael - Archangel over strong angels
2. Gabriel - Archangel over wise angels
3. Lucifer -Archangel over worshiping angels

Before the beginning things existed in eternity. There was no sense of time. I would imagine if you asked an angel about he timespan of things, and pertaining to the rebellion he would give you a strange look, as time was not a concept before earth. Also, as one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, things progress very fast in heaven. I would imagine that Abraham has a sense of being in heaven only a couple of days, even though he has been dead thousands of years.

If we could put a time on Lucifer's fall it would be about 15 billion years in earth's terms. Which is long for us... Short for the eternal beings.

Isaiah 14:12-13

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: - Revelation 12:4

I would imagine that ego swelled in Lucifer's heart as he would lead the worship, in so much that he thought to exalt himself above God the Father himself. There was also bound to have been political games with the other angels as he is called the 'accuser of the brethren.'

Revelation 12:7-10

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


After having enough of that Michael and his strong angels cast Lucifer and his third out of heaven. As in the beginning the earth was without form and void, they were cast out into the nothingness of our universe. I believe that the universe is about 15 billions years old and is the result and in response to Lucifer's rebellion.

If... E = mc2 ... Then m (matter) = E/c2 (energy)

Therefore, for the big boom to have occurred the matter had to have been there before the light and energy (E/c2), as the scripture says...

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. - Genesis 1:2

I would imagine, with these words... 'Let there be light (Genesis 1:3)', that the earth (the mass) turned into energy and light (E/c2) and expanded out from a point of origin, turning into what solar systems the Father willed it to. So the plasma (E/c2) is actually mass that has changed state.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:4,5

I believe that 15 billion years took place between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:4. God divided the light and the darkness by putting the earth in orbit around the sun thus creating the first day of the Earth's creation. But... The universe was created 15 billion years (give or take a few billion years) before that.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Rockytopva,

I see your post, but I am finding it hard to see the relevance to the OP. What do you think caused the universe? How do you know that your view is correct?

I believe that 15 billion years took place between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:4. God divided the light and the darkness by putting the earth in orbit around the sun thus creating the first day of the Earth's creation. But... The universe was created 15 billion years (give or take a few billion years) before that.

OK, so we have in Genesis:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.​

And you insert 15 billion years between v3 and v4? My, but it seems you do have a creative imagination. That insertion is hardly justified by this text. So it took God 15 billion years to see the light he created?
 
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AV1611VET

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Is the US as evangelical as it was 10 years ago?
I don't know.

I don't know what the stats are.

I would like to think so, but some say we're at the point where God is sending missionaries to us.

Ken Ham is one of them.
MasonP said:
Christianity is still as hate filled in America as it's always been.
That's because, to unbelievers, hate is a synonym for "disagree."

For example, if anyone expresses a disagreement with homosexuality, he is considered a homophobe.

Looking at it from another angle, I've been accused of expressing elation at the sufferings of others, just for bringing up Thalidomide as an example of mistakes in science.
 
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-57

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Uh, no, actually I didn't squalk when you turned to DNA. I ignored it because it was off topic. When you complained that you were being ignored, I explained that it was off topic.

We recently had a thread on DNA that you and I participated in. That thread went well over 1000 posts. So no, I am not afraid to talk about DNA. We could pick the topic up again if you like.

And you must have missed it, but I have explained over and over in this thread how Hawking's "god" satisfies the requirements for a universe as well as your God. If you missed all that, would you please go back and review it before you claim I admit I have no case?

No..DNA crushed your argument. You can't get past the DNA points.
 
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rockytopva

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Rockytopva,

I see your post, but I am finding it hard to see the relevance to the OP. What do you think caused the universe? How do you know that your view is correct?



OK, so we have in Genesis:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.​

And you insert 15 billion years between v3 and v4? My, but it seems you do have a creative imagination. That insertion is hardly justified by this text. So it took God 15 billion years to see the light he created?

I believe it took 15 billion years for the universe to expand out from a point of origin. God divided the light from the darkness by putting the earth in orbit around the sun.
 
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