What [b]exactly[/b] is "total depravity"?

[seebs]

A friend suggested I ask this.

I have had many conversations with Calvinists at CF. Sometimes they have not been particularly edifying, and I have not improved matters much.

So.

I have been told various things about what "total depravity" means. I have not understood them fully, but one thing that's quite clear to me is that there is some disagreement about exactly what it means, or what implications it has.

So tell me. What do you mean by this?

I would particularly cherish concrete examples of, say, a human action, and what it means to describe the person acting as having "total" depravity. Perhaps even actions that might seem "good" to a casual observer, which many people have used as arguments against "total depravity" in the sense that they have understood it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Summary of the doctrine​

The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as bad as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Although total depravity is easily confused with philosophical cynicism, the doctrine teaches optimism concerning God's love for what he has made and God's ability to accomplish the ultimate good that he intends for his creation. In particular, in the process of salvation, it is argued that God overcomes man's inability with his divine grace and enables men and women to choose to follow him, though the precise means of this overcoming varies between the theological systems.




Biblical evidence for the doctrine

A number of passages are put forth to support the doctrine, including (quotations are from the ESV except where noted):

• Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
• Jeremiah 13:23 (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
• John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
• Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."
• Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

External links

• The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther
• On the Freedom of the Will, a book treating the extent of man's corruption by Jonathan Edwards
• "Original Sin", a sermon by John Wesley
• "Original Sin", a section from Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology (2.8.13) discussing the corrupting effects of the Fall
• "Human Inability" by Charles Spurgeon
• The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink
• "Total Depravity" by GotQuestions.org
• "Total Inability" from Loraine Boettner's The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination
• "Total Depravity" by John Piper
• "Human Depravity" from R. C. Sproul's Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith
• "What do the Protestant Reformers Mean by 'Total Depravity'?" by Victor Shepherd
• Many articles from a variety of authors supporting total depravity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Depravity

 

[jonas3]

I have been told various things about what "total depravity" means. I have not understood them fully, but one thing that's quite clear to me is that there is some disagreement about exactly what it means, or what implications it has.

I will tell you what it means, and the implications that it has. Please see my comments below.

So tell me. What do you mean by this?

The truth about the natural (i.e. unregenerate) man is this. Man, in his natural fallen state, is unable to savingly believe the gospel or come unto Jesus Christ for salvation. The natural (i.e. unregenerate) man is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1), and his heart is completely polluted with hatred of the true and living God. As by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death is passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Ro 5:12). As a result of Adam's sin (i.e. the fall), all of natural (i.e. unregenerate) mankind is separated from God (Gen 3:23-24), does not seek God (Ro 3:11), has no righteousness in and of himself (Ro 3:12), is naturally an enemy to God (Ro 5:10), loves darkness rather than light (Jn 3:19), and cannot receive or know the things of the Spirit of God (1Cor 2:14). Therefore, with men salvation is utterly impossible (Mat 19:25-26), for man in his totally depraved unregenerate state can do nothing to please God. All of his religious will-worship, kindness, and morality is but fruit unto death (Ro 7:5) and is of no profit before an all-Holy God (Isa 64:6). The unregenerate man cannot believe in Christ, nor can he go unto Christ, but by the free grace of God through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit the dead sinner can come forth, repent, and savingly believe the gospel. This truth is altogether opposed to the lie known as "free-will," which seeks to make man independent from God and seeks to make the Potter depend on the clay.

I would particularly cherish concrete examples of, say, a human action, and what it means to describe the person acting as having "total" depravity. Perhaps even actions that might seem "good" to a casual observer, which many people have used as arguments against "total depravity" in the sense that they have understood it.

What does the truth about total depravity imply? It implies that ALL of an unregenerate man's thoughts, words, and deeds (even his kindness, morality, and religion) are dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. All of an unregenerate man's prayers, Bible reading, outward religious exercises, kindnesses towards humanity, morality, etc, are wicked, and dead works before an all-Holy God. Even the "height of morality" in the unregenerate is an abomination to God. That is the implications of TOTAL depravity.

“I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.” – Ps 26:5.

"...verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity." - Ps 39:5.

“A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.” – Pro 12:10.

The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind? – Pro 21:27.

“13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." - Isa 1:13-15.

"21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. 23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols." - Amos 5:21-23.

“And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” – Lk 16:15.

Etc, etc...

-jonas

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

If you believe in the doctrine of original sin and if you believe that this sin affects man's response to God, you have a good beginning on this concept.

Here's a word picture. When man made us, we were "very good." That is, we had a righteousness that could be in the presence of God. We were as pure as a mountain stream. Picture a pitcher of the purest water. This is what God created and has every right to expect.

Satan came along, and is pictured as a vial of super concentrated poison, as black as death. This is the total depravity that a Non-Calvinist thinks we are attributing to man. They say that we think humans are as evil as they could possibly be, which we deny. The grace of God holds the sin of man to a limit. This grace will be removed before the final day and man will see levels of depravity never before thought possible.

So this black death vial dropped a few drops into the water pitcher. Is the water as pure as God will accept any longer? Is it as black as the vial? No and No. Has the poison thoroughally penetrated the water? Yes. It is totally depraved and unfit for God.

 

[seebs]

What does the truth about total depravity imply? It implies that ALL of an unregenerate man's thoughts, words, and deeds (even his kindness, morality, and religion) are dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. All of an unregenerate man's prayers, Bible reading, outward religious exercises, kindnesses towards humanity, morality, etc, are wicked, and dead works before an all-Holy God. Even the "height of morality" in the unregenerate is an abomination to God. That is the implications of TOTAL depravity.

What do you mean by "evil deeds"? How can kindness be an "evil deed"?

 

[rnmomof7]

Hey Seebs ,

Welcome to Semper !

The others have given sound reference.

I will tell you what it means to me.

It means that in my natural state I was separated from God as he has revealed himself to men.
I did not seek the God of the bible, I wanted a god that was comfortable for me.

Total depravity does not explain how my actions are seen by other men or even the intention of my heart. It is NOT udder depravity . Men can and still do things that we as men count as kind and generous and 'good" .
It describes how God sees my heart and how I naturally respond to God.


Remember when Adam sinned? His first response was to cover the shame of it himself. Then he ran and hid from God and God had to seek and find him.

THAT is Total depravity .

 

[seebs]

Hmm. So "total" and "utter" aren't the same.

I guess, here's the question. If an unregenerate person does something which we would think of as morally right, consistent with God's will, does God think:

* That is actually totally without any kind of merit, and it would have been better for him not to do it.
or
* Nice, but not good enough.

I can't quite get my head around this. From some answers, it sounds like unregenerate people doing "good deeds" (let's just say "feeding the hungry", because Jesus gave us a pretty direct answer on the moral qualities of this action) are actually working evil, and from others, it just sounds like their impulses are not pure enough, or not relevant to salvation even though they're good.

There's a huge difference between "When Bob feeds the hungry, he is acting as God would wish, even though Bob has no desire to serve God" and "When Bob feeds the hungry, it is actually cruelty."

 

[rnmomof7]

Hmm. So "total" and "utter" aren't the same.

I guess, here's the question. If an unregenerate person does something which we would think of as morally right, consistent with God's will, does God think:

* That is actually totally without any kind of merit, and it would have been better for him not to do it.
or

It may have temporal benefit but will it count to our salvation? Is that your question?

What does the bible tell us on that ?

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

* Nice, but not good enough.

Isaiah 64:6*

But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.*

Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.*


Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God .

Seebs what man can please God really ? God is pleased when He sees His work in us and through us. In the end HIS work not ours, and so He gets the praise not men .



"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."

JOHN OWEN, III:433

I can't quite get my head around this. From some answers, it sounds like unregenerate people doing "good deeds" (let's just say "feeding the hungry", because Jesus gave us a pretty direct answer on the moral qualities of this action) are actually working evil, and from others, it just sounds like their impulses are not pure enough, or not relevant to salvation even though they're good.

There's a huge difference between "When Bob feeds the hungry, he is acting as God would wish, even though Bob has no desire to serve God" and "When Bob feeds the hungry, it is actually cruelty."

There remains a spark of the divine in every man seebs, we see that in the responses to the horror of New Orleans.

Men can do heroic or kind things and do them for reasons other than Christ .

Do you agree that there is immediate rewards for many of the good things men do?

They feel " good about themselves" ,or others praise them or reward them . Sometimes good works are an affirmation of self worth or used to prove the basic goodness of men .

Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

 

[seebs]

I am not asking about salvific benefits, but about moral judgment. When regenerate man evaluates a thing to see whether it is good or bad, should we see these things as good?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

We need to remember that God looks to the heart, the motive. We are commanded to do all things to the glory of God. To do any less is sin. If someone does a good deed for any other reason is to go against the command of God. I know it seems contradictory, but because the motive is not God's glory, it becomes sinful.

Natural man will do nothing to the glory of God, but will have other motives. Some of these motives will even be quite good. But they will not measure up to the standard that God requires of us.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

 

[seebs]

Hmm. "Some of these motives will even be quite good."

That's the thing. Is this teaching that the motives are "good, but not good enough" or "actually opposed to good"? I have gotten conflicting answers from different people.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

It's a similar thing to being a basically good person. Will that get you into Heaven? No. Only the righteousness of Christ will do that. We are tainted beings and cannot help but taint every good deed with our own selfish nature. There is always an underlying motive in every good deed. We are either trying to please God or self, whether we are willing to admit it or not. This is why I say that Christianity allows us to finally be our true selves more and more. We don't have to hide behind anything, but can do our good works so that our Father in Heaven will be praised.

 

[seebs]

Hmm. So, let's see if I understand this. What you mean by it is that, in the absence of grace, we are inherently trying to please ourselves. We may come to believe that we are happiest if others are happy, and thus do things which benefit others, but we ultimately do this for selfish reasons. (To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, "no, it was very selfish, if I'd left the pig in the ditch, I wouldn't have been able to stop thinking about it all day")

This does not mean that they do not have components to their reasoning or justification which are exactly what we might have after salvation; it just means that there is always that underlying motive of some kind of self-interest.

Is this correct?

What's confusing to me is that I've seen people insist that non-Christians are necessarily hostile and malicious, and say that this was "total depravity", and I am trying to figure out whether they are correctly describing that doctrine.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Many Calvinists, and I am no exception, will wait until something horrendous happens, then point to it and declare the depravity. The aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is a prime example of that. Were the people, at their hearts, more depraved than a week before? No. The common grace of law was lifted from the city for a time, allowing the depravity to more freely express itself. The point I'm trying to make is that depravity is not manifested only when we do the most vile acts of history.

Hitler was no less worthy of the glories of Heaven after the war than he was a decade before the war. Mankind will measure and compare depravity against each other, as our default setting is to try to earn our grace, but all have fallen short. We have all fallen because of our unbelief, which is expressed through our sin. That is depravity. The depravity we discuss most often is the "worst" of it, thus showing the desire for shifting sands that remains in us all. The Christian life for me has been a roller coaster of highs and lows. It won't be until I am glorified that I will be able to truly appreciate my Lord and Savior in a way fitting for Him.

 

[cygnusx1]

Just some thoughts ......... I haven't really got time at the moment to systematicaly go through this ........

it matters not a jot if a person does a million "good deeds" , if the vessel is filthy who would drink from it ?

The rich young ruler thought he was good , his view of sin and righteousness was something that Jesus corrected , and when shown , he walked away .

First make the man Just (Righteous) and his deeds will be Just . (Luther)

all our (natural) righteousness is as filthy (menstrual) rags before God.


That which does not proceed from faith is sin.


which raises the question , what is sin ?

I can tell you it is far more than an action or a thought ......... it is a state .

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

.

 

[Imblessed]

Hmm. So, let's see if I understand this. What you mean by it is that, in the absence of grace, we are inherently trying to please ourselves. We may come to believe that we are happiest if others are happy, and thus do things which benefit others, but we ultimately do this for selfish reasons. (To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, "no, it was very selfish, if I'd left the pig in the ditch, I wouldn't have been able to stop thinking about it all day")

This does not mean that they do not have components to their reasoning or justification which are exactly what we might have after salvation; it just means that there is always that underlying motive of some kind of self-interest.

Is this correct?

What's confusing to me is that I've seen people insist that non-Christians are necessarily hostile and malicious, and say that this was "total depravity", and I am trying to figure out whether they are correctly describing that doctrine.

Hi Seebs!

I think (personally) that Coffeeswirls is explaining it as well as possible. I don't think that this:

I've seen people insist that non-Christians are necessarily hostile and malicious, and say that this was "total depravity",

is quite right. Just like any other denomination or belief--this is one area that calvinists do have "some" disagreement on. Although the wording is bad....I would guess that "not good enough" is the best way to discribe "total depravity" and yes, "total" and "utter" are NOT the same. We use the word Total to distinquish between the doctrine that man is basically good and able to "choose" God on his own. Having grown up quaker myself, and with this understanding that ALL mankind has a "light within", this is a particularly hard thing for me to grasp. I still find myself, even while embracing the Doctrines of Grace, fighting this concept that man is inherently "bad". I like the analogy of the glass of water being tainted with the vial of poison. Our "evilness" is just so mixed up within ourselves, that ALL that we do is tainted with this "evilness". Even all the good things we do. (we=mankind).


I would imagine, being the "good quaker" that you are(and I don't mean that as derogatory at all!) this may very well be something that you will never truly understand. (still don't truly "get" it) I say this coming from the same background. I never went to any other church but a friends church until after I was married, and went to a quaker church camp every year from 3rd grade through 12!

 

[Godzchild]

man is not totally depraved of knowing that they need some sort of fulfillment - that's why man in general is searching. They search for something. Then the gospel is preached and they can hear it - faith comes by hearing. Man is not depraved of 'hearing'. They are also not depraved of knowing the difference between good and evil.

Therefore when they are enlightened by the gospel they are given the ability to choose - light or dark. That's how they are held accountable if they choose the 'dark' over the 'light'.

 

[SoaringEagle]

God has placed eternity in the hearts of men. Ecc. 3:11