What arguments for God do you think are the strongest and would convince me?

[seebs]

To argue for atheism is first to say that there is no strong argument for theism, which is basically the agnostic position. After that it's a pretty simple use of Occam's razor, but that's impertinant right now.

Yup. Dead-end argument. Give me a bit of time to talk about epistemology, and Occam's Razor, and I can make an ironclad case for solipsism.

As for personal experience, I personally haven't seen good evidence or arguments for a God, so I suppose it's logical to say there's no argument for Him to me, according to you?

An interesting question! I suspect it may be that you have seen the evidence, but understood it differently. (I would argue "incorrectly", but I want to avoid the implication that this is a fault, rather than a mere error.)

I'm interested to find out what you have experienced that make you believe there's a God.

Prayer. Not "I prayed for X to happen and it happened", which I find unpersuasive. But, say, I can pray for peace, or for understanding, or for guidance, and be led. The sence of Presence in worship is convincing to me.

Could it be something else? I suppose so. But I have concluded that, of the explanations offered, God is the most plausible.

 

[ebia]

Ok.... I asked for why a God would prefer to "transform" exactly those people who apparently don't need it, versus nonbelievers who, after being transformed, would be followers. I don't ask how you believe he would/does go about it.

Firstly, when I say transformed, I don't simply mean from a non-believer into a believer, but into a "better person", for lack of a better phrase. Believers need that as much as anyone else. Belief isn't the objective of such transformation, but (one of) the means of that transformation.

I don't refuse the means to transformation, nor do I refuse to be transformed (I'm assuming, again, that being "transformed" is some kind of good thing). I simply don't believe these transformations happen.

And that's the sad part. If we (believers) were getting it right it would be obvious from seeing how we behaved that such a transformation had taken place - just as it was for those who observed the pre-Constantine Christians. The fact that it's not obvious is at least as much our fault as yours.

Uh what? I don't refuse the option to be "transformed" (I'm stil not clear what exactly you mean by that), I simply don't believe there is such a choice.

Sorry, my question wasn't clear. How could God make it clear it you that such a choice does exist, while leaving open the possibility of people making the poor choice. If he doesn't leave open that possibility then it's not a genuine choice.

 

[Daninchrist]

What arguments or evidence do you base your belief on?

There is no argument I use to base my belief in God. Yes, I know that sounds illogical. I was once an agnostic. I have profound knowledge of science and physics and the discoveries of man.

My belief in God is personal. It started with a quests which lead me to truly study the bible, and the historical events leading us to the present. However that’s not the point.

Arguing the existence of God is pointless and I am convinced God has good reason for that. If you could prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, then everything God stands for is pointless. God is not found by profound proof, rather he is found through a personal journey. He is found when we search our hearts. Being a Christian is easy but it’s also the most difficult thing anyone can do. It is a conscious effort.
A better question for you might be what is your fear of believing in God, even just a little? What do you think will happen to you if you set out on that journey? Are you afraid to try and follow Christ? If you are then it’s Ok, so was I, but I can tell you I have no regrets nor am I at all ashamed of being called a Christian.
I do not belong to any cult. I do not walk around condemning people and I don’t lock myself in my home reading scripture and praying. I do struggle, I do have trouble but my faith gives me perfect peace and strength.

 

[Daninchrist]

If God made it more logical to believe in him, I would, and it would be obvious at that point to devote my life to doing what I think he would want us to do. If any reasoning being is presented with the choice between being happy with God in heaven or going to hell, then the choice is obvious. The difference is that people like me believe there isn't such a choice in the first place.

Again, I'm looking for arguments/evidence for his existence, not what we should do about God if we already believe in him.

More to the point of your post, my will would still be perfectly free if God made it more clear that he exists, and what he wants. It would be a win-win situation to make it clearer that he exists. He loses nothing in doing so. And that's not even bringing up the possibility of falling into false religions - if he made it clear what he wants and that he exists, there would be no atheists and only one religion, devoted to serving him.

You will only find your own evidence when you step out in faith; when you steep out of your comfort zone. You don’t have to start with much. You can start with one aspect of your life; one tiny piece of your heart.
I can tell you this, if you seek God, you will find him and you will know. You will have your evidence and you will understand what it means to be transformed, but God is not going to simply hand it to you. He works through people to work on people. He is most interested in your character. Faith takes time. Why don’t you ask God to show you the evidence? You will just be wasting your time asking Christians.

 

[Ryft]

You honestly can't tell...? I'm asking for arguments for God that you think are strong. That's all.

No, I cannot honestly tell. If I could, you would not have found me asking the question.

In your original post you had asked, "What arguments for God do you think are the strongest and would convince me?" There are many strong arguments for God that are sufficient to convince people of a number of different things about him, but I have a hunch that you have a specific intent, which I am trying to draw out from you. A response to your question will depend intimately upon what your question is asking.

Are you asking for arguments with strong conclusions for the existence of God, strong enough to convince you that God exists (and you would thereby become a self-determined theist of some ambiguous fashion)? I suspect that this is the case, that this is the sort of arguments you are petitioning us for.

If so, state it plainly. Because if so, there already exists an effective response waiting for such queries.

 

[2LivIsChrist]

I don't know if i can convince you. I can plant the seed and show you the love of Jesus. Yet, the Holy Spirit is the one who will reveal himself to you, and its your choice to accept or deny what he did for you and if your going to live for him.

 

[Calminian]

A little vague? It's obvious that I'm asking for arguments for God. I don't know how much clearer I can get.

Because everyone has different reasons for believing in the foolishness of atheism. Psa. 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” Your reasons may have nothing to do with logic at all.

I suppose showing a phenomena which could only possibly have a supernatural cause would be the biggest step to evidencing a God. I have yet to see one. But asking me to find a good argument for theism would be a pretty fruitless search, though I suppose the cosmological argument is the "strongest" argument.

Yes the cosmological and teleological arguments are by far the best arguments for theism.

I don't believe that. You don't need to believe that to believe there is no God. An infinitely existing universe or a multiverse sufficiently explain the presense of the current universe.

You actually believe in infinite regression? Oy, NinjaYadda you're killing me. Even atheistic philosophers reject such nonsense. Modern scientists believe the universe (matter, space and time) had a beginning. Are you not aware that your theories require a rejection of modern science? That makes you an anti-science atheist. I sure am glad you're not representing my side.

Honestly, Ninja, let's cut through the nonsense. What’s the real reason you reject God? If you come clean maybe we can give some decent answers.

 

[WashedClean]

For me the strongest argument for God is His creation. The Human mind, eye, body, nervous system just for starters. Then look at nature, the intricacies of a flower, how animals and insects are so detailed and amazing. Do you honestly believe that everything just randomly came to being out of nothing at all? How about our solar system. If the sun was just a little closer to earth it would kill/burn us and if it was farther we would die from the cold. Can you really believe that's a coincidence?

 

[indagroove]

There is no argument I use to base my belief in God. Yes, I know that sounds illogical. I was once an agnostic. I have profound knowledge of science and physics and the discoveries of man.

My belief in God is personal. It started with a quests which lead me to truly study the bible, and the historical events leading us to the present. However that’s not the point.

Arguing the existence of God is pointless and I am convinced God has good reason for that. If you could prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, then everything God stands for is pointless. God is not found by profound proof, rather he is found through a personal journey. He is found when we search our hearts. Being a Christian is easy but it’s also the most difficult thing anyone can do. It is a conscious effort.
A better question for you might be what is your fear of believing in God, even just a little? What do you think will happen to you if you set out on that journey? Are you afraid to try and follow Christ? If you are then it’s Ok, so was I, but I can tell you I have no regrets nor am I at all ashamed of being called a Christian.
I do not belong to any cult. I do not walk around condemning people and I don’t lock myself in my home reading scripture and praying. I do struggle, I do have trouble but my faith gives me perfect peace and strength.

It is very personal. Until one can stop worshipping everything of this world. The things that we seek of this world, like money, career, car, big house. We struggle for these things becasue we feel that they make us complete. But it is all short lived. That new car smell does not last very long, and now we are on a quest for that next big purchase that will make my life complete. And then the next, and then the next. We think we are in love, how long does that last. Not very long because obviously that person is not giving me what I want and need. ONe day we wake up, our soul is black, and there is not love felt for anything. The only thing we have is a God shaped hole in our heart. At that time, God sends in his helpers and they lead you to the truth. All of a sudden, you feel it. What it that feeling? It is nothing short of God's loving Grace. Oh my, I have never felt unconditional love until that point in my life. When I realized that someone truely loved me as I am, and would never condemn me. That's right, completely broken and lost, I was restored. It is God's love that allows you to love yourself, and everyone. It is in that love that you no longer ask your spouse what can you do for me, but what can I do for you.

So yes, it is very personal. This didn't happen over night for me, but within a few weeks. The helpers that God sent pointed me to the Gospel, and my first mission was to disprove it. To show that this Jesus thing was made up. A crutch for the weak. I was way too smart to fall for that! But I couldn't. Just the opposite. The logical evidence points to the Resurrection of Christ. For me it was an epiphany that still send chills down my spine.

So if you are just here to debate, there is nothing we can say that will open the eyes of your heart. But if you are feeling that missing something in your heart, we can discuss it.

 

[bethnz]

Hey, I totally hear where you are coming from. It seems like everything that is used as proof for Christianity can be rationally explained away.

There are however scientific arguments that point at least to a higher form of intelligence than human beings. Such as the well-known intelligent design theory and the idea that the universe must have come from somewhere (it is unprecedented that there can be an effect without a cause, and it is unprecedented that something can simply have always existed).

In terms of proof that the Christian God is the right one, two things that are persuasive are miracles and fulfilled prophecies. The life and sacrifice of Jesus in the new testament fulfils alot of prophecies in the old testament, and these prophecies are very specific. They speak of where he was born, exactly how he would die (pierced hands and feet), and how he would be a light to the gentiles etc etc. I have been reading the old testament alot lately as I feel like you do, like I need evidence and reasons for my faith. I suggest you do the same. It takes alot of effort to read and understand the bible, but if anyone can convince you of its truth, it has got to be God himself, and the bible is his word.

If you like, I can tell you where some of these prophecies are. I think it is good evidence as the old testament was written some hundreds of years before the new. But I am still searching for the truth myself, it is a difficult process.

 

[ebia]

Hey, I totally hear where you are coming from. It seems like everything that is used as proof for Christianity can be rationally explained away.

There are however scientific arguments that point at least to a higher form of intelligence than human beings. Such as the well-known intelligent design theory

Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory but a philisophical position dressed up to look like one.

and the idea that the universe must have come from somewhere (it is unprecedented that there can be an effect without a cause,

No it isn't (and even if there is a cause that cause does not have to be God).

and it is unprecedented that something can simply have always existed).

That would be an argument against the existence of God.

In terms of proof that the Christian God is the right one, two things that are persuasive are miracles and fulfilled prophecies. The life and sacrifice of Jesus in the new testament fulfils alot of prophecies in the old testament, and these prophecies are very specific. They speak of where he was born, exactly how he would die (pierced hands and feet), and how he would be a light to the gentiles etc etc. I have been reading the old testament alot lately as I feel like you do, like I need evidence and reasons for my faith. I suggest you do the same. It takes alot of effort to read and understand the bible, but if anyone can convince you of its truth, it has got to be God himself, and the bible is his word.

If you like, I can tell you where some of these prophecies are. I think it is good evidence as the old testament was written some hundreds of years before the new. But I am still searching for the truth myself, it is a difficult process.

If the prophesies are so convincing, how come nobody will ever examine how many of them are/were:
preidentifed (prophesies that cannot be preidentifed are not convincing because they cannot be observed to not come true).
cannot have been faked, lied about or stagemanaged
have been unabiguously fulfilled
are sufficiently specific to be meaningful
can be proved to have been written before their "fulfillment"

remove that lot - get down to the prophesies that are capable of being evidence - and see how many have actually been fulfilled compared to how many "are yet to be fulfilled" (ie have not) or haven't really been fulflled unless you fudge things.

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

Don't post again. That would be swell.

 

[ebia]

You have a problem with Christians being honest?

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

I just don't think NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda should be yadda-yadda-yadda-ing on these forums.

 

[beth34]

That would be swell.

Hi,

I'm 34 and was saved when I was 15 years old. I felt the presence of God more than anytime in my life when my dad passed away 3 years ago after fighting a short 8 month battle with cancer. I saw God working in and through my Dad the last 8 months of his life on this earth. Of course my Dad wasn't ready to die, but he wasn't scared to die either, because he knew that this world was not the end of his journey. My Dad knew up until his last breath that he was dying. Just 20 or 30 minutes before he died, he asked for me and my sister. Everyone cleared out of his bedroom except for me, my mom, and my sister. We were right there at his bedside. He first reached out for my hand and I leaned over and kissed him and told him that I loved him and that he had been the best dad in the world. Next he reached for my sisters hand and she kissed him also and told him it was ok to go on to be with the Lord, that we would see him again one day. And lastly, he reached for my Mom's hand and she gave him a big kiss and told him she loved him. After that, my Dad reached his hands toward the heavens and said "Lord, help me up-get me up" and about 2 minutes later he took his final breath and I could feel a coolness in the room and felt his spirit leave his body. Even though his frail, diseased body was still laying there in front of me, I knew his spirit, his soul, had finally went on to be with the Lord, and I know I'll see him again one day and I can't wait for that day to happen. I know it may all sound korny to you, but my belief in God that day was more real to me than ever. If you have loved ones in your life, you will have that assurance that you will see them again if you and they too are saved. I can't imagine living any other way. God is real - I pray that you will come to accept Christ as your saviour one day. Hope I have offered something of meaning to you. Take care.
Beth

 

[wcwred]

If God made it more logical to believe in him, I would, and it would be obvious at that point to devote my life to doing what I think he would want us to do. If any reasoning being is presented with the choice between being happy with God in heaven or going to hell, then the choice is obvious. The difference is that people like me believe there isn't such a choice in the first place.

Again, I'm looking for arguments/evidence for his existence, not what we should do about God if we already believe in him.

More to the point of your post, my will would still be perfectly free if God made it more clear that he exists, and what he wants. It would be a win-win situation to make it clearer that he exists. He loses nothing in doing so. And that's not even bringing up the possibility of falling into false religions - if he made it clear what he wants and that he exists, there would be no atheists and only one religion, devoted to serving him.

Look for a book entitled "Defending the Faith" by Max Anders
You will find Plenty in it. But. alas. it always comes back to Faith.

 

[threedog]

If God made it more logical to believe in him, I would, and it would be obvious at that point to devote my life to doing what I think he would want us to do. If any reasoning being is presented with the choice between being happy with God in heaven or going to hell, then the choice is obvious. The difference is that people like me believe there isn't such a choice in the first place.

Again, I'm looking for arguments/evidence for his existence, not what we should do about God if we already believe in him.

More to the point of your post, my will would still be perfectly free if God made it more clear that he exists, and what he wants. It would be a win-win situation to make it clearer that he exists. He loses nothing in doing so. And that's not even bringing up the possibility of falling into false religions - if he made it clear what he wants and that he exists, there would be no atheists and only one religion, devoted to serving him.

Well said!

Threedog

 

[Key]

Hi,

I'm 34 and was saved when I was 15 years old. I felt the presence of God more than anytime in my life when my dad passed away 3 years ago after fighting a short 8 month battle with cancer. I saw God working in and through my Dad the last 8 months of his life on this earth. Of course my Dad wasn't ready to die, but he wasn't scared to die either, because he knew that this world was not the end of his journey. My Dad knew up until his last breath that he was dying. Just 20 or 30 minutes before he died, he asked for me and my sister. Everyone cleared out of his bedroom except for me, my mom, and my sister. We were right there at his bedside. He first reached out for my hand and I leaned over and kissed him and told him that I loved him and that he had been the best dad in the world. Next he reached for my sisters hand and she kissed him also and told him it was ok to go on to be with the Lord, that we would see him again one day. And lastly, he reached for my Mom's hand and she gave him a big kiss and told him she loved him. After that, my Dad reached his hands toward the heavens and said "Lord, help me up-get me up" and about 2 minutes later he took his final breath and I could feel a coolness in the room and felt his spirit leave his body. Even though his frail, diseased body was still laying there in front of me, I knew his spirit, his soul, had finally went on to be with the Lord, and I know I'll see him again one day and I can't wait for that day to happen. I know it may all sound korny to you, but my belief in God that day was more real to me than ever. If you have loved ones in your life, you will have that assurance that you will see them again if you and they too are saved. I can't imagine living any other way. God is real - I pray that you will come to accept Christ as your saviour one day. Hope I have offered something of meaning to you. Take care.
Beth

Thank you for shareing this wonderful touching expirence in your life.

God Bless

Key