What arguments for God do you think are the strongest and would convince me?

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

That would be swell.

 

[ebia]

The clear, obvious, and wonderful transformation he works in his followers. Sadly, we are very bad at displaying such at the moment.

 

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

The clear, obvious, and wonderful transformation he works in his followers. Sadly, we are very bad at displaying such at the moment.

Why not perform wonderful transformations on everyone, believer or not?

 

[Daninchrist]

If you do not believe in God or if you are unsure; then I’d suggest there are no good arguments to convince you.
If you are searching for God then I can assure you he can easily be found but you have to invite him. Perhaps you might try what I did many years ago. Pray, tell God that you are not sure of his existence, but you are willing to try. Tell him you will commit all you know and understand about yourself to all you know and understand about him. For me, understanding God took time. I suspect it may also take time for you.

 

[Daninchrist]

Why not perform wonderful transformations on everyone, believer or not?

Because there is no value in false love; God created every last one of us to love him, but he gave us free will to choose that. He did that out of love for us and because he wants us to love him. He wants us to choose him. Some will not.

 

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

If you do not believe in God or if you are unsure; then I’d suggest there are no good arguments to convince you.
If you are searching for God then I can assure you he can easily be found but you have to invite him. Perhaps you might try what I did many years ago. Pray, tell God that you are not sure of his existence, but you are willing to try. Tell him you will commit all you know and understand about yourself to all you know and understand about him. For me, understanding God took time. I suspect it may also take time for you.

What arguments or evidence do you base your belief on?

 

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

Because there is no value in false love; God created every last one of us to love him, but he gave us free will to choose that. He did that out of love for us and because he wants us to love him. He wants us to choose him. Some will not.

If God made it more logical to believe in him, I would, and it would be obvious at that point to devote my life to doing what I think he would want us to do. If any reasoning being is presented with the choice between being happy with God in heaven or going to hell, then the choice is obvious. The difference is that people like me believe there isn't such a choice in the first place.

Again, I'm looking for arguments/evidence for his existence, not what we should do about God if we already believe in him.

More to the point of your post, my will would still be perfectly free if God made it more clear that he exists, and what he wants. It would be a win-win situation to make it clearer that he exists. He loses nothing in doing so. And that's not even bringing up the possibility of falling into false religions - if he made it clear what he wants and that he exists, there would be no atheists and only one religion, devoted to serving him.

 

[Adammi]

There may be good arguements, but I haven't heard any and frankly think that there aren't any. Simply because it's faith.

Now, there are lots of arguements for faith, but none for God simply because that would destroy the arguements and everything I say keeps going in circle so I'll stop now.

 

[Aceybee]

Well I can't prove for definite that He's real.. But all the same, you can't prove that He's not real either.
The many complexitys of biology and science indicate that there was some sort of intelligent design. Beings of irreducable complexity (take one bit away and it wouldn't work) mean that it had to be perfectly right, the first time, or the species could not exist. The function of the human body suggests this too. We are getting information more and more compressed with technology, but each individual cell in your body holds much much more information than we are getting on computer chips.. That couldn't just happen
Well the chances of nothing exploding and making everything perfect first time, even for a cell to be right and be able to develop and evolve, are pretty minimal.

You have the presence of God in history..

However- the Bible doesn't ever set out to prove the existance of God. It does mention that we can only know so much about him (Deuteronomy 29:29 Ecclesiastes 11:5 ) and at the end of the book of Job, he tells us a bit about himself.
but apart from that...

But heres a logic path..

1. The world exists
For every effect there is a cause. Non-existance doesn't seem to require a cause.

2. The world seems to have been designed
Our world shows order, design and balance in its construction.

3. People are unique, complex beings with minds and personalities
We even have the ability to think about our thought processes

4. People value certain things.
-life, beauty, relationships, courage, truth, knowledge. Often these work against the things our meaner greedier selves want.

5. People have a sense of right and wrong
Common core of ideas of right and wrong regardless of race or culture
 theft, murder, rape, envy, disrespect for elders, violence.. are bad
 Peace, love, loyalty, courtesy are praised

6. People seem aware of a greater reality.
Every society has some form of religion. Where did this awareness come from?

7. Peoples lives and experiences indicate there is a God.
Abolition of slavery, Red Cross, Flying Doctor, Humane society started by people with Christian motivation

8. People are capable of thinking of God
Does a thing have to be scientific to be real?


Ultimately I guess you take a chance either way.
Lets say theres a 50/50 chance.
If you decide that there isn't a God, and you are wrong, you lose out. If you are right, you aren't really gaining much
If you decide there is a God, and you are wrong, you aren't losing much, but if you are right, then you stand to gain everything. And have a fulfilling purposeful life getting there..

So I can't prove for definite, but its enough evidence for me to have faith in the rest

 

[Key]

If God made it more logical to believe in him, I would, and it would be obvious at that point to devote my life to doing what I think he would want us to do.

Love does not need Logic.

No one loves someone becasue it is the "Logical" thing to do.

If any reasoning being is presented with the choice between being happy with God in heaven or going to hell, then the choice is obvious. The difference is that people like me believe there isn't such a choice in the first place.

That is not an issue. The issue is that can you reason why a man love shis children.

Can reason explain why one man would give his life to save a stranger, and yet another man can not even find the compassion to help their family.

Reason is only valid when not dealing with life in motion.

God is Life like life in Motion.

Again, I'm looking for arguments/evidence for his existence, not what we should do about God if we already believe in him.

Oh, Debate, Umm GA, One Forum Down. Click Here

God Bless

Key

 

[ebia]

Why not perform wonderful transformations on everyone, believer or not?

He transforms all those who allow themselves to be transformed. If one refuses to be transformed, or refuses the means of transformation, he cannot force that transformation because that would be counter to his nature and the nature of the desired transformation. Love can only be freely given and freely received.

 

[ebia]

More to the point of your post, my will would still be perfectly free if God made it more clear that he exists, and what he wants. It would be a win-win situation to make it clearer that he exists. He loses nothing in doing so. And that's not even bringing up the possibility of falling into false religions - if he made it clear what he wants and that he exists, there would be no atheists and only one religion, devoted to serving him.

What could he do that would satisfy your demands without removing the possibility of your continued refusal?

 

[Harlan Norris]

I believe that for me there was serious doubt that the world contained any truths.Turn on the tube.Lies slander,fear and hate.Turn on the radio.Same thing.I felt a strong desire to know the real truth about current events.My search ended in me finding my faith.The truth of the matter now seems obvious.The Hebrew prophets wrote the script the world now follows.They also wrote about Jesus,that he would come and be rejected.So it was.And now Isreal is the center of the storm.Isreal,tiny Isreal.No valuable natural recorces to speak of.An area of land smaller than Rhode Island.Why can't we all just get along?It's because God will not allow it.He's bringing this tribulation on us to show that he is in control,that he is God.We have a choice though.We can choose life.It's on offer through Jesus Christ.There's nothing we can do about the affairs of the world.But we can do something about our own fate.We can accept the free offer of salvation.The offer stands until we die.Then it's to late.The kind of question you asked indicates a certain interest.It may be that you are half way considering the possibility of God.That's how it starts with all of us.There is not a single Christian that isn't a convert.I will pray for you.

 

[Calminian]

That would be swell.

That's a little vague. What would you consider a convincing argument? Maybe from there we can help you out.

Frankly, it's atheism that needs to do the convincing. Something out of nothing for no reason. Now that takes faith!

 

[seebs]

That would be swell.

So far as I can tell, every argument for or against is bunk except personal experience. The others have logical flaws ranging from subtle to glaring.

 

[Ryft]

What arguments for God do you think are the strongest and would convince me?

That would be swell.

Convince you of what?

 

[pdudgeon]

That would be swell.

stop and think for a moment. what arguements would you use to convince me that you are real?

I cannot see you or touch you.
i don't know you.
i personally don't know anyone who knows you.
so how would you convince me?

it's actually much easier to prove God than to prove yourself.

 

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

There may be good arguements, but I haven't heard any and frankly think that there aren't any. Simply because it's faith.

Now, there are lots of arguements for faith, but none for God simply because that would destroy the arguements and everything I say keeps going in circle so I'll stop now.

That makes no sense. If there's no good arguments you know of, why believe in it in the first place? Are you actually saying that there's no logic behind your belief in God? Allah requires faith, but why don't you believe in him? To answer the preceding question, you will answer probably with some arguments that the Bible specifies so, etc. But under your reasoning, a person such as you could be born under any religion and would follow it. Don't you see a problem in your (lack of) reasoning? How can you ever logically conclude that you don't need logic?

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Well I can't prove for definite that He's real.. But all the same, you can't prove that He's not real either.

I'm well aware of that. But the existence of God is something we can establish with evidence. Just as you can't prove your left arm exists, even to yourself, it's a reasonable conclusion and we can agree that it does exist. I don't ask for proof either way because it does not exist for this subject.

The many complexitys of biology and science indicate that there was some sort of intelligent design. Beings of irreducable complexity (take one bit away and it wouldn't work) mean that it had to be perfectly right, the first time, or the species could not exist. The function of the human body suggests this too. We are getting information more and more compressed with technology, but each individual cell in your body holds much much more information than we are getting on computer chips.. That couldn't just happen
Well the chances of nothing exploding and making everything perfect first time, even for a cell to be right and be able to develop and evolve, are pretty minimal.

It is clear to me you don't understand evolution, I suggest you do some (more) reading on it from people who actually evidence it. Natural biological evolution explains all the complexities of life up to the first system of molecules you might consider life (at which point we have to call upon theories of abiogenesis, and then cosmology, to explain all the complexity of the universe).

Micheal Behe's irreducible complexity has been debunked numerous times, and is scoffed at by the scientific community. I suggest some reading here and here. It almost sounds like you attached to the prominent ID idea of the day.

You have the presence of God in history..

However- the Bible doesn't ever set out to prove the existance of God. It does mention that we can only know so much about him (Deuteronomy 29:29 Ecclesiastes 11:5 ) and at the end of the book of Job, he tells us a bit about himself.
but apart from that...

The Bible is pretty much useless unless you already believe it is divinely inspired, for which it is necessary, obviously, to believe in God. I'm sure you can see how it's pretty weak from my perspective.

But heres a logic path..

1. The world exists
For every effect there is a cause. Non-existance doesn't seem to require a cause.

An infinitely existing universe doesn't require a cause, either. That is what I believe, along with many cosmologists. The Multiverse concept also does not require a supernatural cause, and it is a concept by some prominent cosmologists, too. They seem quite reasonable after studying them. I suggest you read Before the Beginning

2. The world seems to have been designed
Our world shows order, design and balance in its construction.

All explained by biological, physical, chemical - in short, natural - causes. Any phenomena that haven't been explained yet are still more likely to have a natural cause which we haven't reached yet, rather than a supernatural cause. Only if a phenomena could NOT POSSIBLY have a natural cause, I will believe in a supernatural cause. Throughout our history we've attached supernatural causes for phenomena we saw throughout nature. Throughout our history, those phenomena which require supernatural causes have decreased steadily to nearly nothing.

3. People are unique, complex beings with minds and personalities
We even have the ability to think about our thought processes

A natural extension of the rapid, almost exponential, increase in intelligence in the Homo genus through evolution in the past millenia. Nothing supernatural required here.

4. People value certain things.
-life, beauty, relationships, courage, truth, knowledge. Often these work against the things our meaner greedier selves want.

Uh so? I don't get your last sentence here.

5. People have a sense of right and wrong
Common core of ideas of right and wrong regardless of race or culture
 theft, murder, rape, envy, disrespect for elders, violence.. are bad
 Peace, love, loyalty, courtesy are praised

Easily explained by the will of a society of intelligent, social creatures to have their own internally-peaceful societies.

6. People seem aware of a greater reality.
Every society has some form of religion. Where did this awareness come from?

When you say "aware," you are begging the question. Awareness implies perception of a reality, while I don't believe there is such a reality that some people have conceived of. I could just as easily have said: "People seem aware of the reality that there is no God."

Religions have indeed appeared throughout human history in many societies. Often it is because societies could not conceive of natural explanations for the quite wonderful phenomena around them. But, as science increased as a body of knowledge, the need to call upon a supernatural has decreased (to nothing in my opinion). It seems to me that ,in the future, eventually everything will have been explained, with strong evidence to support it, to have a natural cause.

7. Peoples lives and experiences indicate there is a God.
Abolition of slavery, Red Cross, Flying Doctor, Humane society started by people with Christian motivation

Progression of civil ethics as the perception of a people change. Let me remind you that in earlier times (and some even now), Christians have stated that it was preferable to live in whatever life you were born into - that includes peasants and manorlords - and not to be ambituous to strive to higher qualities of life. There are certainly other examples, but that's beside the point. Systems of morality would be necessary for any intelligent social society to enforce. Therefore, in no way does this point to God over a purely natural world.

8. People are capable of thinking of God
Does a thing have to be scientific to be real?

Does people thinking of something make it have to exist? Of course not. I fail to see how this is an argument at all.

No, of course something doesn't have to be "scientific" to exist. (And by that I assume you mean that which is evidenced by science). There might possibly be a God, angels, etc. There might possibly be a tiny invisible man inside a grandfather clock who actually makes it move. There is an absolute reality or truth that is not dependent on our ability to perceive it.

However, the question of approximating the truth depends on weighing the evidence for something and weighing the evidence against. I see no evidence for God.

Ultimately I guess you take a chance either way.
Lets say theres a 50/50 chance.
If you decide that there isn't a God, and you are wrong, you lose out. If you are right, you aren't really gaining much
If you decide there is a God, and you are wrong, you aren't losing much, but if you are right, then you stand to gain everything. And have a fulfilling purposeful life getting there..

So I can't prove for definite, but its enough evidence for me to have faith in the rest

I figured that Pascal's Wager would come up. I don't think that people can, purely through force of will, change their beliefs, no matter how profitable it might be to them or how likable the conclusion (Indeed, a loving God is a "happier" conclusion, but not, I think, the logical one). So this line of reasoning doesn't matter because it is not an argument in itself, and I can't change my beliefs without arguments and evidence.

Faith if we define it as "believing in something without proof," is necessary everyday: the next step will support my weight, the brakes will work, this food isn't poisoned, etc. But we must still place faith in that which is evidenced, and only things which are evidenced. It is illogical to place faith in something which is not evidenced.


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Love does not need Logic.

No one loves someone becasue it is the "Logical" thing to do.

I need to conclude that there is a God before I can say that I love him. Make sense?

And if I believed that God exists, it's not hard to conclude that I should try to love him.

That is not an issue. The issue is that can you reason why a man love shis children.

Can reason explain why one man would give his life to save a stranger, and yet another man can not even find the compassion to help their family.

Reason is only valid when not dealing with life in motion.

God is Life like life in Motion.

Uh what? I asked for reasons that point to a God existing. Not reasons to love him, nor reasons why anyone would love another person.

Oh, Debate, Umm GA, One Forum Down. Click Here

God Bless

Key

Apparently I need 100 posts before I can post there.

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He transforms all those who allow themselves to be transformed. If one refuses to be transformed, or refuses the means of transformation, he cannot force that transformation because that would be counter to his nature and the nature of the desired transformation. Love can only be freely given and freely received.

Ok.... I asked for why a God would prefer to "transform" exactly those people who apparently don't need it, versus nonbelievers who, after being transformed, would be followers. I don't ask how you believe he would/does go about it.

I don't refuse the means to transformation, nor do I refuse to be transformed (I'm assuming, again, that being "transformed" is some kind of good thing). I simply don't believe these transformations happen. This is an important distinction I've noticed some Christians fail (not necessarily refuse) to make.

Anyway, this is way off-track to the original intention of this thread, so I ask to steer more towards a more relevant discussion. I'm somewhat to blame, I admit.

What could he do that would satisfy your demands without removing the possibility of your continued refusal?

Uh what? I don't refuse the option to be "transformed" (I'm stil not clear what exactly you mean by that), I simply don't believe there is such a choice.

"Would you like a unicorn or not?"
"What are you talking about? You don't have a unicorn to give me."
"Too bad! No unicorn for you!"

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I believe that for me there was serious doubt that the world contained any truths.

Er, can't say I've ever held that belief. It doesn't really make any sense, and seems to be internally inconsistent. Unless you mean that people lie all the time and the truth is hard to find, which I guess is not internally inconsistent, but is fairly silly.

My search ended in me finding my faith.The truth of the matter now seems obvious.The Hebrew prophets wrote the script the world now follows.They also wrote about Jesus,that he would come and be rejected.So it was.And now Isreal is the center of the storm.Isreal,tiny Isreal.No valuable natural recorces to speak of.An area of land smaller than Rhode Island.Why can't we all just get along?

The vagueness of "the prophesies" and the accuracy of the claimed prophesized events are highly doubtable in my mind. Even if it were the case, it's a terrifically weak argument for a God, if that's what you're suggesting.

He's bringing this tribulation on us to show that he is in control,that he is God.

It would seem to make more sense to me if he could just "show" that he exists and what he wants us to do. Then everything would be solved: everyone would believe in and follow God's will, with few exceptions. It doesn't really make any sense for God to want heavy violence. That shows nothing, since such violence is easily explained naturally. If anything, an extreme aversion to voilence would better suggest he exists.

We have a choice though.We can choose life.It's on offer through Jesus Christ.There's nothing we can do about the affairs of the world.But we can do something about our own fate.We can accept the free offer of salvation.The offer stands until we die.Then it's to late.The kind of question you asked indicates a certain interest.It may be that you are half way considering the possibility of God.That's how it starts with all of us.There is not a single Christian that isn't a convert.I will pray for you.

Ok... all of this already assume God exists. I could debate the particulars of this paragraph, as it is not really consistent with a just and loving and fair God, but that's beside the point of this discussion.

 

[NinjaYaddaYaddaYadda]

That's a little vague. What would you consider a convincing argument? Maybe from there we can help you out.

A little vague? It's obvious that I'm asking for arguments for God. I don't know how much clearer I can get.

The arguments I put forth back when I was a Catholic apologist are weak to me now. So are other arguments I've heard around the place. But I would like to be more reasonably certain there there is no argument I haven't heard, so I come to this forum. And I also would like people to be convinced of my position if it turns out to be the strongest

I suppose showing a phenomena which could only possibly have a supernatural cause would be the biggest step to evidencing a God. I have yet to see one. But asking me to find a good argument for theism would be a pretty fruitless search, though I suppose the cosmological argument is the "strongest" argument.

Frankly, it's atheism that needs to do the convincing. Something out of nothing for no reason. Now that takes faith!

I don't believe that. You don't need to believe that to believe there is no God. An infinitely existing universe or a multiverse sufficiently explain the presense of the current universe. There's also string theory's proposition about p-branes, but I digress. I suggest you read some cosmology books like Stephen Hawkings or Kip Thorne.

As to atheism requiring convincing, for the sake of argument, please just assume I am an agnostic in that I posit no belief either way.

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So far as I can tell, every argument for or against is bunk except personal experience. The others have logical flaws ranging from subtle to glaring.

To argue for atheism is first to say that there is no strong argument for theism, which is basically the agnostic position. After that it's a pretty simple use of Occam's razor, but that's impertinant right now.

As for personal experience, I personally haven't seen good evidence or arguments for a God, so I suppose it's logical to say there's no argument for Him to me, according to you?

I'm interested to find out what you have experienced that make you believe there's a God.

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Convince you of what?

You honestly can't tell...? I'm asking for arguments for God that you think are strong. That's all.
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stop and think for a moment. what arguements would you use to convince me that you are real?

You can't prove to yourself that I exist, but you can convince yourself that I exist by looking at the evidence.

I cannot see you or touch you.

Ah, quite the empiricist, aren't we? You can see evidence of a thinking being existing in that you observe writing on your computer. It's possible that this typing is the result of a a spontaneous resemblance. as the probability is nonzero. It is, however, a negligible probability because words tend not to arrange themselves into order, and you know of no ability for cumulative evolution of such words.

Another possibility is that these words are the result of an intelligent computer programmer, meant to span the Christian forums and load up pre-written responses. However, this, too is a negligible probability, because it seems that the words typing here are directly related to the speech supplied, because such a program would be unlikelyto have been built in the first place (the sheer impracticality of such a program), and other reasons.

Now that you come to the conclusion that the cause for these words are probabily a sentient being, you can postulate that I am a human being, because you are not aware of any evidence for a sentient extra-terrestrial life form. You can't rule out the possibility, however.

And of course, you could leave your computer right now and actually see and touch me if you really wanted to convince yourself, of course. This still would not prove my existence to you, but all the evidence points to such.

In short it is far easier to demonstrate the metaphysical than the physical, and it is easier to show the physical rather than the supernatural.

i don't know you.
i personally don't know anyone who knows you.

So?

so how would you convince me?

I think I did a good enough job above, but I could go on much longer. I mean only to show that I could probably convince you of my existence.

it's actually much easier to prove God than to prove yourself.

Then prove God!

 

[Key]

Apparently I need 100 posts before I can post there.

That is to stop the Trolls.. which now I wish also applied to this forum.

I would like to ask that you in your time of "Waiting" to get to 100 Posts, not to use This Forum as your own little private debate forum, as we can not debate with you.

God Bless

Key