What are your views on, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Calvinists?

[mlqurgw]

Well, as I see it, the best you guys can do right now is James White. I assure you that he would be no match for Leathermann on any theological issue.

I gave up telling people "my daddy can beat up your daddy" when I was about 7 or 8.

 

[OnTheWay]

Catholic Dude,

Where in the Bible does it say that Baptism is needed to be saved?

John 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (KJV)

John 3:4-5

Nicodemus said, "How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born? Jesus replied:
In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirt. (NJB)

 

[InnerPhyre]

One word! Pickandchoosery

 

[woobadooba]

I gave up telling people "my daddy can beat up your daddy" when I was about 7 or 8.

Was it necessary to say this? Do you enjoy belittling people like this?

 

[Wrigley]

Was it necessary to say this? Do you enjoy belittling people like this?

As opposed to what? The belittling involved in lumping Calvinists togather with mormons and jws?

 

[mlqurgw]

Was it necessary to say this? Do you enjoy belittling people like this?

I am reminded of Elijah on Mt. Carmel.

 

[Christ Aficionado]

John 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (KJV)

John 3:4-5

Nicodemus said, "How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born? Jesus replied:
In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirt. (NJB)

Hmmm. That doesn't really do it for me. Did the thief who was crucified next to Jesus need to be baptized before Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise"? All he had to do was believe.

 

[calgal]

Well, as I see it, the best you guys can do right now is James White. I assure you that he would be no match for Leathermann on any theological issue.

You don't see very well do you? 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. When I became a man I put awaychildish things."

 

[frumanchu]

Well, as I see it, the best you guys can do right now is James White. I assure you that he would be no match for Leathermann on any theological issue.

James White? While White is certainly adept, I don't know that I'd term him "the best we can do." I'm sure R.C. Sproul, John Piper, or a number of others would do just fine.

Again, I'm curious to know what your professor would think of you making these bold claims about him. Are you repeating his claims or merely speaking for him without his knowledge or consent?

 

[woobadooba]

James White? While White is certainly adept, I don't know that I'd term him "the best we can do." I'm sure R.C. Sproul, John Piper, or a number of others would do just fine.

Do just fine at what, ignoring the hard questions? I suppose some are more adept at this than others. LOL

Again, I'm curious to know what your professor would think of you making these bold claims about him. Are you repeating his claims or merely speaking for him without his knowledge or consent?

Hey, you are the one that insulted him by telling me that I should get my money back for the exegesis class that he taught.

You know, maybe we should go at it if you think you know your stuff so well. If you want to challenge me to a debate I will gladly accept the invitation.

I will go up against anyone that you can throw at me, even Sproul. I don't need Leathermann. I only need my Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide me along the way.

 

[woobadooba]

You don't see very well do you? 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. When I became a man I put awaychildish things."

Apparently you don't see very well, because it helps to pay attention to the context of a statement to understand why it is being made. You obviously didn't do that. It was inferred in another post that Leathermann is not an adept exegete; and this is why I responded thus.

Pay attention to the context next time!

 

[calgal]

Apparently you don't see very well, because it helps to pay attention to the context of a statement to understand why it is being made. You obviously didn't do that. It was inferred in another post that Leathermann is not an adept exegete; and this is why I responded thus.

Pay attention to the context next time!

Bless your heart, the evidence of his teachings is less than convincing (nice strawman construction attempt though). Did he consent to let you speak for him?

 

[woobadooba]

Bless your heart, the evidence of his teachings is less than convincing (nice strawman construction attempt though). Did he consent to let you speak for him?

You bless me and then insult me in the same sentence. LOL

You know, we haven't even gotten into yet, so how can you speak of evidence?

Oh, and by the way, I am not speaking for him. I am defending him. There is a difference.

 

[calgal]

You bless me and then insult me in the same sentence. LOL

You know, we haven't even gotten into yet, so how can you speak of evidence?

Oh, and by the way, I am not speaking for him. I am defending him. There is a difference.

 

[pamaris]

Hi,

Just tuning in... just want to throw this out there... wooba what do you think of this:

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

----

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

-----

That is, HE chose US

also:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

----

What is the gift that is "not of ourselves--" that we are not to boast about (take credit for)-- not of any human work-- the GIFT is the faith we are given by the grace of God. Paul is making the point here that the faith that saves us is not something we can attribute to our selves (free will), it is a gift from God.

Earlier on, we see that this (our salvation) was ordained by God (through adopting us as His children) before the foundation of the world. Where was our free will before the foundation of the world?

Left to our own free will, we would never choose God (we are absolutely dead in our own sin). Thus, God must mercifully save us, regenerate our hearts and give us the desire to "choose" Him.

What I am getting at, is... here it is, explicitly stated in the Bible, that God predestinated us (his elect/ chosen/ sheep) BEFORE the foundation (creation) of the world. How does anyone get around that to state that our salvation is based on our "free will". How can anyone's will be apart (free) from He who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will.

If you think you have a leg to stand on by claiming your own salvation, Romans chapter 9 will put us all in our place:

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

----

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I am all over the place here, but really you ought to study Ephesians 1, and Romans ch 9 in entirety to begin with. Predestination, the election of those chosen by God's sovereign will is explicitly stated, and it is belaboured that there is not anything we can take credit for in the equation (like choice). I only came to believe in it because after 25 years of growing up Baptist, I read the Bible on my own and realized that there were entire sections of the Bible that were just entirely skipped over.

Also consider things that Jesus said about His sheep:

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Notice He did not say, "You are not my sheep because you don't believe." He said "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." Thus, being a sheep is a prerequisite to believing.

I dare you to read "Chosen By God" by RC Sproul. You will see things in the Bible you didn't even know were there. I did.

Just because some are chosen and some are not does not mean that God "predestined" the others to damnation. Everyone who ends up in hell freely chose to be there. Our "free will" (selfish flesh) is the reason we need salvation to begin with. Thank the Lord that He interfered with my free will to serve myself and the world, and gave me His will, allowing me to serve Him!

Blessings

 

[pamaris]

Oh yeah-- while I do want to see what you will say, I am not going to debate. I just wanted to point out what some of the Scriptural basis for a Reformed understanding of salvation by election is. I didn't even know this stuff was in the Bible until I stumbled upon it myself a few years ago.

 

[Albion]

Wow! I am truly surprised to see Calvinists lumped in there. Why in the world are Calvinists lumped in with Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnesses? [/QUOTE]

Exactly. These three have so little in common that we might as well be speaking of Catholics, Moonies, and Snakehandlers.

 

[WAB]

They all twist scripture to suit their own proclivities.

 

[Albion]

They all twist scripture to suit their own proclivities.

That's it? Then why choose those three instead of, for example, the three I chose? Why not three denominations chosen at random from the phone book since most people who think like this tend to say that ALL other churches twist scripture, meaning only that they don't see it the way the writer's church does.

But there's no real connection between these three church bodies.

 

[woobadooba]

Just because some are chosen and some are not does not mean that God "predestined" the others to damnation.

It's too bad Calvin didn't believe this.

Also, I am aware of most of the arguments, if not all, so I don't fear anything that Sproul has to say.

In fact, I would love to debate him on the issue.