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What are your thoughts?

Cordy

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So, what do you folks think about this article?

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=2&tt_news=211

What are your opinions on it, and how do you think this advice would impact your marriage etc.

I love to discuss issues with others, and sometimes we will have different opinions. We can explain our perspective in the spirit of love and respect toward the other posters. That is what I am hoping this threat can be.

So come, sit down, have some tea or coffee and lets have a nice chat about it. :wave:
 

alaskamolly

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Well, you already know what mine are...


^_^


Seriously, though, one of the things that I thought was NEAT about this article is that it helped me understand the "mutual submission only" camp a bit more. As the author said, if you are married to a Steady,

If you are married to a Mr. Steady, you need to get familiar with Proverbs 31 to know how to be an active help meet to your man. Your husband will enjoy and share your triumphs in business. He will be proud of your accomplishments. He will want you to use your natural skills, abilities, and drives. Your achievements will be an honor to him... He needs a resourceful, hard-working woman with dignity and honor. At the end of the day, he enjoys weighing what he has accomplished with what you have accomplished and rejoices in the value of having a worthy partner in the grace of life.

In other words, the natural bent of some men is going to be to desire "mutual submission only", or at least more of that picture than anything else. It is a natural way for them...


Anyways, it just helped me see why that would work so well in some relationships.


Personally, I believe in headship(man)/submission(woman) AND mutual submission, both co-existing in marraige. The headship/submission as the authority structure, but the equality of personhood and of spiritual status being the "individual" structure. And I think Scripture supports those two things co-existing in marriage.

...But of course, then we get off into "was Ephesians 5 cultural, or is it meant for today..." and I'm totally not even trying to go there. Obviously, I believe it is as much as for today as it was 2,000 years ago...and obviously, others do NOT! ^_^ We've already debated that one plenty, so there's no need for us to go there again! HA! I'm just explaining my basic position, and why the above article was helpful for me, in understanding how some couples find "mutual-submission-only" very satisfactory.

For me, I am a Command type (female) and so is my husband. So there's no such thing as "mutual submission only" in our book... We'd kill eachother.
That would be funny if it were a joke...

^_^

For us, we both are quite aware that we are equals...and yet the authority structure is very much in place. It does not detract from my equality...in fact, it causes my husband to be that much more careful with his use of authority (it's delegated, you know, not inherant). Two heads can't run a ship. And I am very much a head, by nature... I came out of the womb barking orders, they say... *grin*


It's funny, though, because I've come to find great joy in taking the role of "body" in my marraige. I was not at all aware of the peace that would come--a *rest* of sorts...not a passive thing where I take no responsibility for myself (because this "body" thing is very much active!!!!) but just a resting that I'd never before experienced in my life, and something that just felt *right* despite my former opinions to the contrary.



By the way, the cool thing about this article is the author. If you've ever met a happier wife, I'd be surprised. I've seen her speak, and she literally radiates joy. Her daughters are the same way. It's incredible. So if a personal testimony means anything, she's obviously living proof that her "theology" really does work...either that, or somehow she accidentally survived marraige to a difficult man... :)



Ok, ramblings are over...for now, anyways...

Btw, mbams, thanks for putting this on a different thread. I really appreciate that! *grin*

Blessings,
Molly
 
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bliz

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I believe that Scripture teaches mutual submission in marriage, so I have a really hard time with some poor newlywed peddling around all over the place behind a man who has not learned how to read a map! That's all very well and good if they are just spending time together, but what if they really need to get some place urgently? What if darkness were falling, and a hard rain with it? Do we let him happily think he's the great leader? That really is rather manipulitive and insulting, isn't it? "I won't correct him if it doesn't matter." There's something creepy in this... "I let him think he's in change." sort of thing. That's rather patronizing.

Man was indeed made in the image of God. So was woman. They were both made in the image of God! That part she skips.

Woman was not made with a desire for her man. That was not part of God's original plan; that came with the curse and the death of Jesus on our behalf has lifted the curse from belivers.
 
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Katydid

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that came with the curse and the death of Jesus on our behalf has lifted the curse from belivers.


I have to disagree. Jesus death gave us everlasting life by cleansing OUR sins, but he did not lift the curse of Genesis. If he did than women would also NOT feel pain during childbirth. Men would not have to work day in and day out to provide food for their families. Those are also parts of that same curse.
 
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heartnsoul

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bliz said:
I believe that Scripture teaches mutual submission in marriage, so I have a really hard time with some poor newlywed peddling around all over the place behind a man who has not learned how to read a map! That's all very well and good if they are just spending time together, but what if they really need to get some place urgently? What if darkness were falling, and a hard rain with it? Do we let him happily think he's the great leader? That really is rather manipulitive and insulting, isn't it? "I won't correct him if it doesn't matter." There's something creepy in this... "I let him think he's in change." sort of thing. That's rather patronizing.

Man was indeed made in the image of God. So was woman. They were both made in the image of God! That part she skips.

Woman was not made with a desire for her man. That was not part of God's original plan; that came with the curse and the death of Jesus on our behalf has lifted the curse from belivers.
Good post Bliz! :thumbsup: I'm with you on this. I don't agree with the article. It puts women in an oppressive position. I think the beauty of marriages is for both partners to "polish" one another and learn from each other. I don't believe women were born to be martyrs for men or be their love slaves. Of course, forgive me for using extreme descriptions, but that's how I perceive that article to be. I think a marrage (like ANY relationship) should be a two-way street. Everyone has his/her strengths and weaknesses. With God in our lives, we are each responsible for our own walk with Him. With God working in our lives, I believe God will teach both partners how to LOVE more deeply and continually teach both the "lessons" of life so ultimately everyone can reach spiritual maturity. I agree that people shouldn't try to change other people because that is *God's* job. However, that doesn't mean that women are forever doormats for their husbands. I think prayer is key here. With God in our lives, change is possible. If a husband is not spiritually growing, that will not be healthy for a marriage. I see God working miraculously in my own marriage and my husband is slowly changing to be a godly man. I've been on my knees with a lot of prayer and I am here to testify to the power of God. For everyone who is struggling in their marriages, I sincerely hope that they fall on their knees and give God a chance to work in their lives. Praise the Lord! :bow:
 
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Katydid

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I don't believe women were born to be martyrs for men or be their love slaves. Of course, forgive me for using extreme descriptions, but that's how I perceive that article to be. I think a marrage (like ANY relationship) should be a two-way street.
I find this in every response to an article for women. Women saying "but it's a two way street". Of course it is. BUT...

To digress some to make a better point,

My two kids come into the room screaming. I tell them to be quiet and allow one to speak, then I punish the other one accordingly, tell them why they were wrong and make sure they understand why they shouldn't do that again. THEN I speak to them and punish, lecture etc. the other one. At first they felt this was unfair, in essence they believed that the other was MORE wrong than they were. Now they understand that I have to address each ones actions individually for them to BOTH learn to get along.

It is the same with these articles. They are addressing YOU, not your husband. Yet, if you look through their newsletters, they actually address HUSBANDS as well. She tells women how to be better wives, he tells men how to be better husbands. The question is, WHO IS WILLING TO START. If you are constantly saying "why should I when he......" and he is saying "why should I when she....." Then the marriage is not improving, noone is making changes because of hardness of heart. Now that is exactly what got Pharoah in trouble. Hardness of heart is what says "but he should change FIRST!!" If we are open and take this article as what it is, ONE step in understanding and improving our marriage. If we take it in context with ALL the other articles that have been written by them. If we use it as a help rather than a criticism, then we see a whole new picture. Just a thought.
 
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heartnsoul

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Katydid said:
I find this in every response to an article for women. Women saying "but it's a two way street". Of course it is. BUT...

To digress some to make a better point,

My two kids come into the room screaming. I tell them to be quiet and allow one to speak, then I punish the other one accordingly, tell them why they were wrong and make sure they understand why they shouldn't do that again. THEN I speak to them and punish, lecture etc. the other one. At first they felt this was unfair, in essence they believed that the other was MORE wrong than they were. Now they understand that I have to address each ones actions individually for them to BOTH learn to get along.

It is the same with these articles. They are addressing YOU, not your husband. Yet, if you look through their newsletters, they actually address HUSBANDS as well. She tells women how to be better wives, he tells men how to be better husbands. The question is, WHO IS WILLING TO START. If you are constantly saying "why should I when he......" and he is saying "why should I when she....." Then the marriage is not improving, noone is making changes because of hardness of heart. Now that is exactly what got Pharoah in trouble. Hardness of heart is what says "but he should change FIRST!!" If we are open and take this article as what it is, ONE step in understanding and improving our marriage. If we take it in context with ALL the other articles that have been written by them. If we use it as a help rather than a criticism, then we see a whole new picture. Just a thought.
I'm not here to debate with you or with anyone. The OP had asked for all of us for our opinions and have a nice "chat" on the article. In the spirit of love, let's all try to respect each other's different opinions and be open minded to everyone's point of view. My opinion still stands. All things are possible with God. As I previously stated, I think prayer is key here. With God in our lives, change is possible. If a husband is not spiritually growing, that will not be healthy for a marriage. I see God working miraculously in my own marriage and my husband is slowly changing to be a godly man. I've been on my knees with a lot of prayer and I am here to testify to the power of God. For everyone who is struggling in their marriages, I sincerely hope that they fall on their knees and give God a chance to work in their lives. Praise the Lord! :bow:
 
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Katydid

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heartnsoul,

I am sorry, I didn't mean for that to be offensive, or even take away from the idea of your post. You are absolutely right that prayer is where it all begins. No change, at least not a lasting one, can occur without God. All I was doing was using one sentance that you stated to put another spin on the article. I just don't want people thinking that all "No Greater Joy" writes about is how women should change. And I have definately seen the cycle that I mentioned above in many marriages. I am sorry if you took it as a personal attack on you. It was not meant to be. Sometimes, and I should be more careful, I take a sentance that one person puts that covers what I feel needs to be discussed, even when that person isn't the one who needs to hear it. Does that make sense? Basically, you put the sentance that prefaced what I was thinking perfectly, it wasn't meant to be used against you personally in any way. I was intending on my point of view being seen as a friendly one, not an enemy. I do apologise and I hope you can accept it.
 
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heartnsoul

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Katydid said:
heartnsoul,

I am sorry, I didn't mean for that to be offensive, or even take away from the idea of your post. You are absolutely right that prayer is where it all begins. No change, at least not a lasting one, can occur without God. All I was doing was using one sentance that you stated to put another spin on the article. I just don't want people thinking that all "No Greater Joy" writes about is how women should change. And I have definately seen the cycle that I mentioned above in many marriages. I am sorry if you took it as a personal attack on you. It was not meant to be. Sometimes, and I should be more careful, I take a sentance that one person puts that covers what I feel needs to be discussed, even when that person isn't the one who needs to hear it. Does that make sense? Basically, you put the sentance that prefaced what I was thinking perfectly, it wasn't meant to be used against you personally in any way. I was intending on my point of view being seen as a friendly one, not an enemy. I do apologise and I hope you can accept it.
Hi Katydid,

Thanks for clarifying things on your above post. No offense taken. I also apologize since I misunderstood the purpose of our post. Gosh, I wish we could all talk face to face instead of these emails. Emailing brings so much confusion and misunderstandings between people sometimes. I do agree with your thoughts on your original post. It takes BOTH people to work on the relationship, but one needs to be the "bigger" one to initiate the healing of the marriage otherwise hardness of the heart could easily set in for both partners. I totally agree with you. :) Marriages are so hard, aren't they? By nature, men and women are so different in personalities. We definitely need God's love and grace to get through the challenges in life. Thank you for your post. :)
 
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bliz

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Katydid said:
I have to disagree. Jesus death gave us everlasting life by cleansing OUR sins, but he did not lift the curse of Genesis. If he did than women would also NOT feel pain during childbirth. Men would not have to work day in and day out to provide food for their families. Those are also parts of that same curse.
Are you saying that we should live with the curse and make each other live with it? That the curse is a permenent part of the human condition?

The curse says that the pain of childbirth will be INCREASED - Interesting, becasue so far no human had given birth, but there was never a state of painless childbirth... Please don't tell me that you are opposed to women lessening their pain in childbirth! The Christian church has been, from time to time in history; women have been burned at the stake for such a "sin". Should we start enforcing that part of the curse?

The curse specifically talks about man laboring to produce food. Are we to take that to mean that all men must be involved in the business of agriculture? Kick those accountants and lawyers out into the fields and make them grow grain!

Is "Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" part of the curse or God's original plan? I think it's very clear that this is part of the curse. Is life under the curse how God wanted people to live? I think not. To some degree we will be under part of the curse until he are in heaven, but we do not have to live under the full wieght of it and we certainly do not have to embrace as "God's plan" that which was clearly not God's original plan.

Another part of the curse is: "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat a live forever." But Christians can live forever! That part of the curse is gone becasue of the blood of Christ. I learned my theology well: Creation, Fall, Redemptiion. The curse came with The Fall. Redemption came with and comes with Jesus Christ. We will never be fully free from the effects of the curse, but we are freed from the main part - eternal death - and I think part of being a Christian is attempting to redeem the culture and the world.

If "Your desire will be for your husband and he shall rule over you" is part of the curse, we should hardly hold it up as a standard for how things should be! We should be attempting to minimize the impact of the curse on one another.
 
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alaskamolly

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Well, I don't believe male headship began at the Fall. I think it was quite obviously there in the Garden. Only, in the Garden, it was pure--without the taint of sin's selfishness...

My "proofs:"

1.) God made Adam first.

Order is big in the Bible... The NT references the fact that man was made first as a symbol of his authority, in fact. Order doesn't always imply authority, but in many cases it does, and in this case, the NT validates that the creation order: man, then woman, does indeed represent that man was in authority. Again, she came out of him, not he out of her. This matters--it shows order and placement.

The first man and woman are a type, a picture to show us spiritual realities (also referenced throughout Scripture). The Bride of Christ came out of Christ, for example, just as Eve came out of Adam. Christ and His Bride operate in a sinless reality--post-cross, sin has been dealt with. Yet we still have authority in full operation. Not only just with Christ Himself in authority over us, but also in the Body itself (as we are told that God has put certain members in positions over others, to help them come to maturity, and that we are to OBEY those that "have rule over" you, in the Body)...

2.) God made Eve to compliment Adam, to complete him.

Helpmeet (ezer) is a wonderful word--not at all meaning 'slave' or anything like that, as it's also used of the Holy Spirit at times--but at the same time, we have this picture of "one who is leading" and one who is helping (in a noble valuable sense, not in a servile sense).

...But you'll notice that the focus is on Adam, not Eve, in the creation account--it's about completing Adam, giving needed aid to Adam. Again, I look at that and I see authority. The focus isn't on Eve--it's on making the man complete. Never in the creation account is the focus on making woman complete. The focus is on the man. I find this interesting...

3.) Adam was given the job of naming.

The one who names is the one who is in charge. Especially in OT times, the one who gives the name is basically saying what the thing is, what the thing's purpose is. This can only be done by one who is in charge. And who gave Eve her first name--who first called her "woman?" Only one in authority could give her a name. And so Adam did, as the rightful authority delegated by God.

4.) Adam was given the rule about the tree directly from God.

Eve was given the instructions through Adam. Again, this speaks to me of authority. God didn't give the instructions to them both. He gave them to the leader, and expected the leader to pass them on down.

5.) Who did God call after Adam and Eve sinned?

Is He walking through the Garden calling "Adam and Eve...?"

Is He calling, "Eve, Eve...?"

No, He is calling the one who is directly responsible for the state of the garden--He is calling the one that He has put in authority. God calls Adam. To me, this says MUCH.






Now, as I've said before, alongside the authority structure (the crossbeam going vertical) is also the personal worth structure (the crossbeam going horizontal--I love the shape of the cross!). Adam and Eve were both equal in personhood, equal in value, equal in worth.

The structure of authority does not wipe out personal worth and value, or personal responsibility (I think Eve paid for her crime, don't you?), or personal ability. The authority that God gives is NOTHING like the abused and oppressive authority that sinful man wields. Most don't differentiate between the two, but they are wholly different animals.




As for the curse, I think it took that beautiful authority structure and bungled it all up. Because of the sin that now dwelt in their hearts, Eve was going to be grasping for her husband, wanting to take over his authority, and her husband was going to rule over her in a way that God never intended. Power abuses the weak in the sin world, because life is all about SELF...so the one in power will abuse it, and the one under the thumb will seek to grasp the power for themselves (so that they, in turn, can abuse those who do not have it). This is the curse, I think.




The curse says that the pain of childbirth will be INCREASED - Interesting, becasue so far no human had given birth, but there was never a state of painless childbirth...---Bliz
As for pain in childbirth, we are the only creatures on earth who's babies have to make a right angle hook in order to get out. All other creatures have straight birthing passages. Human babies, however, have to have their hard bony heads be bent in order to get through an extremely un-natural curve in the woman's birthing canal. It's my believe that this wasn't originally there, personally.

It's interesting, but with total relaxation, a woman can actually have an almost pain-less birth...except for about 12 contractions which ARE painful...and those are the ones where the baby's head has to bend through the curve. There's no way to escape that pain, no matter how relaxed the laboring mother is. (I know this for a medical fact, and also personally--^_^ )... But that's another subject...

And, by the way, the word translated "pain" regarding women's childbirth in the Curse IS THE SAME WORD USED FOR ADAM'S CURSE! When God said Adam would have to "toil" the ground, it is the EXACT SAME WORD. So the word is not necessarily talking about "total physical pain," but more like: really darn hard work! In other words, it's not going to just naturally pop out fruit--both the ground and the womb are going to require hard labor to bring anything forth.




Anyways, on much of this, I think we'll all have to agree to disagree. I just wanted to explain my personal position on it all, and explain why I feel it is Biblically supported. Perhaps that will help you understand "my side" better. :) You'll notice that I've not made any rude or nasty comments towards any "other sides," and, while I know it can be difficult, I'd appreciate it if we can keep it that way. *grin* Even if we never agree, perhaps we can come to some levels of mutual understanding, and that certainly helps us hold conversations like these while still maintaining a spirit of love.



Blessings,
Molly
 
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Katydid

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Bliz, I am going to be honest, I can't truly debate this issue because I have not truly studied that issue specifically. Do you happen to know where to start with studying it? I was going to read over the Genesis verses again, but what New Testament verses should I look at?
 
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Mrs. Enigma

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I like almost everything by the Pearls, and feel that Debi is one of the few women who actually encourage other women in the right direction. My marriage has drastically improved as my husband took an authoritative, firm leader roll. When he did what he thought, whether I agree or not.

And I have become much more respectful of him, and much more obedient. The more I obey him in the right spirit, and honor his thoughts as being really smart, the more my marriage improves. It is amazing what God can do.
I really reccomend the book The Surrendered Wife. That has been an inspiration to me also.
I hear women say how that won't work in my marriage or some other but... but...

It makes me think of this one lady named Dee in this book by Frank Peretti. I can't think of the name of the book.
Anyway, I think if you want to be treated like a princess, you gotta treat your husband like a strong, wise knight who is in charge of returning you safely to the castle. A husband who is in charge is much sexier in my opinion.
 
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