What are your reasons for being pre-trib or post-trib?

[A Brother In Christ]

have not dealt with scripture with scripture

hearing your words ... man imagination

.... has not defined grace

 

[Shadowfax503]

If I may ask, what are you wanting Zadook to define?
Grace in general or or Grace during the tribulation?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

if one can not be challenged with scripture ....

and He wants to attack me.... I can have joy as Christ tells us... 2 cor 7:4, col 1:24,heb 10:34, james 1:2, 1peter 4:13

 

[A Brother In Christ]

His definition of grace or God definition of grace

 

[Zadok7000]

If I may ask, what are you wanting Zadook to define?
Grace in general or or Grace during the tribulation?

Many pre-tribbers (including BiC and myself a few years ago) react as if you are challenging their very Christianity when you say their position is not Biblical. Playing the "Grace card" is an attack saying post-tribbers don't believe in God's Grace. Absurd, of course. That's why I usually dont get involved with this rapture threads anymore.

 

[Shadowfax503]

If I may ask, what are you wanting Zadook to define?
Grace in general or or Grace during the tribulation?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

do both ... just answer a question for once

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Many pre-tribbers (including BiC and myself a few years ago) react as if you are challenging their very Christianity when you say their position is not Biblical. Playing the "Grace card" is an attack saying post-tribbers don't believe in God's Grace. Absurd, of course. That's why I usually dont get involved with this rapture threads anymore.

still refuse ... to answer questions

what are you afraid of.....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

try ephesians 2 ... define grace....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Deal with scripture with scripture

happens in 1 thes 4:16-18 before the day of the Lord in 1 thes 5:2

day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night

notice the differences of them,they,those who, verses brethren, you, we ,us in 1 thes 5


Matt 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.


John 10:1 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same as a thief and a robber.


john 12:6 This Judas said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.


2 peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

then the day of God will come.. 2 peter 3:12


1 thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to any wrath... any wrath

1 jn 4:17-18 no fear in love .. fear involves torment

eph 5:6 goes to the sons of disobedience..
. eph 2:2 2 cor 11:13-15,

titus 2:13 happy hope
]

lets finnish with the thought of the mystery
1 cor 15:52 in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet will sound, and the dead will raiseincorruptible, and we shall be changed

trumpet is were your stumbbling block is


who tell Christ that only is He is worthy to open the seals.. the 24 elders... rev 5:9

OT saints have been promised to be resurrected 75 days after the 2nd coming .. dan 12:2,11-12 not twinkling of an eye as 1 cor 15:51-52 say very different



promise rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment... fulfillment in future rev 4:4 and round about the throne were 24 seats and upon the seats I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white raiment



1 cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits[romans 8:23]; afterward #2 they that are Christ's [possessions] at his [2nd] coming 24 #3 Then cometh the end group, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God.

3 different times of resurrections of believers

He gets it from 2 thes 2:3 even thou the word for falling away used at 10 different places is translated depart ... luke 2:39,4:13,13:27 acts 12:10,16:38, 19:9, 22:29, 2 cor 12:8, 2 tim 2:19, heb 3:12, 1 tim 4:1

verb form defines the word....

those that are in Christ ... are those who believed after the cross... and the Holy spirit put us into Christ .. 1 cor 12:12-13 then him into us... 1 john 5:11-13

prior to the cross you will never hear of in Christ truth!

why 2 peter 1:4, heb 11:39-40 We recieved the Best promises ... why grace... nothing that we did makes us deserve anything but Hell! John 15:5


please read 1 thes 5:1-7 day of the Lord is a day of judgement against the world! which is the Great Tribulation ... people ague but God's word is clear


the Rapture .. day of Christ

Day of the Lord... 1007 year long
beginning ..1 thes 5:2
ending ... 2 peter 3:10 did you read 1 thes 5:1

or

rev 4:4 and connect all the promises that is in this verse for the church fulfilled before the Great Trib

rev 4:4 and round the throne were 24 seats[rev 3:21]: and upon the seats I saw 24 elders sitting[heb 4:9], clothed in white raiment[rev 3:5]; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.[1thes 2:19, 2 tim 4:8, james 1:12, 1peter 5:4, 1 cor 9:25]

]heb 11:39-40, and 2 peter 1:4 ... good ....better ... the church the best this is dealing with promises ... Jews the earth the church the heavens

we both got it better than hell! reason is not knowing how many days after the beast sitting on the temple 2 thes 2:4 .. dan 12:2,11-12 states after 1260 days is the 2ndcoming and then they must wait 75 days longer for the glorified bodies ....
[/left]

the reason is that the sun has darknened
and moon shown no light .. matt 24:29
thus cannot keep time!​

by the way ... we are looking at any moment Christ could come back for us 1 cor 15:51-52 .... vs the Jews situation

#1 the church is not under wrath.. 1 thes 1:10,59, romans 5:9

#2 Rev 4:4 and round about the throne were 24 seats: and upon the seats were 24 elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their head crowns of gold.

lets look at the promises that are fulfilled before the Great Tribulation

crowns... #1 1 thes 2:19
#2 2 tim 4:8
#3 james 1:12, rev 2:10
#4 1 peter 5:4
#5 1 cor 9:25

white rament.. rev 3:5

grant to sit on My throne .... rev 3:21

#3
the day of the Lord 1 thes 5:2 beginning 2 peter 3:10 ending

is different than the
day of Christ ... phil 1:6
and different than the
day of God ... 2peter 3:12

#4 1 cor 15:51-52 Christ can come right now!... next event on Gods calendar
Jews have many events that must happen before there resurrected body is given

#5 titus 2:13 we have a happy hope..
we get to comfort one another 1 thes 4:18
Jews get to mourn with everyone.. mt 24:30

#6 must must more but why....

 

[Shadowfax503]

OK, I have a few questions if you could clarify something for me.

Is there a different kind of grace during the tribulation?
If so can people who have to go through it still be saved?
And if they can still be saved is it done different or is it different from what we know now?
Just trying to understand.

 

[holdon]

OK, I have a few questions if you could clarify something for me.

Is there a different kind of grace during the tribulation?

If you mean "saving grace" I don't think so. The same blood is efficaceous to them as it is to us now. "These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

If so can people who have to go through it still be saved?

Yes. See Rev 7:14 for instance.

And if they can still be saved is it done different or is it different from what we know now?

It is on the same basis as it always was and is and shall be: belief in the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Shadowfax503]

Thank you!

 

[garry2]

Dude, you have done this in previous threads to no avail.

I USED TO BE PRE-TRIB. Study of the Scriptures brought me OUT of that bondage.

beleiving in a pre-trib rapture - a bondage?
you couldn't even explain that, and you said it.
I pray you will as well. Hopefully the Holy Sprirt has planted a seed of doubt in your mind.

not from anything you have said.
i have always been pre-trib, nothing will ever cause me to reject scripture.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

OK, I have a few questions if you could clarify something for me.

Is there a different kind of grace during the tribulation?
If so can people who have to go through it still be saved?
And if they can still be saved is it done different or is it different from what we know now?
Just trying to understand.

grace is something that one can not earn or deserve

it is a gift

right now we are saved by grace in the past
we are graced in the present tense .. 2 peter 3:18
and we are judged by grace by the rapture since we as a church did not love like Christ 1 thes 4:16-18

Tribulational saints will be saved by grace
but there daily life will have different rules than that of the dispensation of grace ... they are jacob 70th week .. dispensation of law

christians will suffer heavy persecution during this time.

 

[Sunrise78]

Wow, I was gone for a little more than a week and look at how much discussion my question has generated ...

I am very disturbed, however, that this thread seems to have degenerated into a shouting match as to who is right on this issue, and I never intended it to be that way. It seems as though people are merely talking past one another - both sides are telling the other how obvious their position is and shoot Scriptures back and forth like bullets without really having any understanding of the other side's position. I am sorry that I started a discussion that could not be carried out in a Christlike and civil manner ... it is very disturbing to me that fellow Christians are basically hurling insults at one another over such a (to me) minor issue.

I think Satan has more of a field day over these kind of out-of-control threads than he does over someone being on the wrong side of the rapture issue ... if he can get Christians fighting and provoking and insulting one another over minor issues, it is (1) a bad testimony to the world and (2) preventing us from using our time in more productive ways for the kingdom of God.

If this discussion cannot be continued in a civil manner then I think I would rather see this thread closed than continue providing a medium for Christians to insult and attack each other.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Wow, I was gone for a little more than a week and look at how much discussion my question has generated ...

I am very disturbed, however, that this thread seems to have degenerated into a shouting match as to who is right on this issue, and I never intended it to be that way. It seems as though people are merely talking past one another - both sides are telling the other how obvious their position is and shoot Scriptures back and forth like bullets without really having any understanding of the other side's position. I am sorry that I started a discussion that could not be carried out in a Christlike and civil manner ... it is very disturbing to me that fellow Christians are basically hurling insults at one another over such a (to me) minor issue.

I think Satan has more of a field day over these kind of out-of-control threads than he does over someone being on the wrong side of the rapture issue ... if he can get Christians fighting and provoking and insulting one another over minor issues, it is (1) a bad testimony to the world and (2) preventing us from using our time in more productive ways for the kingdom of God.

If this discussion cannot be continued in a civil manner then I think I would rather see this thread closed than continue providing a medium for Christians to insult and attack each other.

nice another accuser ... already was reported by Zadok7000 .. and moderators said I did not wrong

yet he could never answer a simple question
let alone a scriptural one

for some people they get heated ... because of there soul

God is spirit ... and we can operate from our position.. col 3:1-4


will you answer some questions ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Hello all,

Recently I have been having doubts about the dispensationalist/pre-trib view of eschatology (something I have always been taught). Basically at this point all I can say about myself regarding my end-times belief is that I am a premillenilalist.

My main problem with the dispensationalist/pre-trib view is the idea that there are "two people of God" - that only believers during the Church Age comprise the Bride of Christ and that all other believers (OT saints, tribulation saints, millennial believers) will have a different (inferior?) relationship with Christ throughout eternity.

My main problem with the post-tribulationist view is that Jesus clearly says (Mt 24:42) that no one knows the day of His return, and from Daniel it is rather simple to count down the days until Christ's return if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation.

So I decided I would ask the premillennialists out there - if you are pre-trib, what is the main reason for your belief? And if you are post-trib, what is the main reason for your belief? (or whatever other view of rapture timing you hold.) Also, any answers to the above objections to either position would be very much appreciated.

Thank you!
Sunrise

I don't think I agree that there are two sets of people.

Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed during the time of Noah and led the captives to freedom....all of this while His body was dead and then resurrected.

Psa 68:18When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious-- that you, O Lord God, might dwell there.


1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
1Pe 3:19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
1Pe 3:20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
1Pe 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledgeof a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand–with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


We are all going to get the final reward...eternal life in glorified bodies in the New Jerusalem at the same time.

Hbr 11:13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.


Hbr 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Hbr 11:40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

2 peter 1:4whereby are given unto us exceeding greatest and best promises: that by these ye might be partakers of divine nature

if we have been offered the greatest....

who is the other two groups?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

another question where OT saints ever told they were in Christ? if so a verse please