What are we doing wrong as christians.

[bobbarry]

I have no problem that you dont agree with me bella.

I m not saying it was written by paul before he was born again, it was written by paul after he had been born again, but he was talking about his predicament before he was born again.

1. See above. It was in present tense, but not how he presently was. Many, many scriptures from romans wont back up that paul was talking about his current predicament.

2. Paul starts off by saying...We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Paul at that time wasn't unspiritual, he had received the holy spirit. How could he be talking about being unspiritual if he was talking as if thats how he presently was?

3. Paul before he bacame paul, was saul a pharisee, the pharisees did care about what God wanted, they studied their scriptures more than the rest. Saul definetely cared about what God wanted...Jesus's problem with the pharisees was, not that they didn't have a zeal for God, it was that they thought what they were doing...i.e following the law was what God wanted...but it lead them to become haughty people. God did want people to follow the law (or try because thats all they could do try...he knew that, thats what pauls talking about here). up until jesus died and was raised up and it showed or it should have shown people that they couldn't keep the law. Jesus was the answer, but now he was dealing with people that thought what they were doing was enough they rejected jesus because they had confidence in the law, and they became haughty about it...their thinking was God views me more favourable because i follow the law/pray/read the bible better/more than anybody else. Jesus was bringing them down from their haughtiness because what they were doing wasn't enough anyway...they needed Jesus to die for them so they could be born again in the spiritual realm and put the flesh that held them slaves to sin to death. The church people nowadays are no different to the pharisees. They need to change course.

4.Again, paul is writing this when he was born again, i ve never disagreed with that, but he was writing about how he was before the event. Again paul was a pharisee he wanted to please God.

5. Saul was a pharisee, he wasn't saved but was definetely concerned about worship. The pharisees were very religious people.

Look forward to your answers Bella if you would be kind enough.

 

[Alias1234]

he's speaking to people with the holy spirit inside them, not the people he was actually speaking to at the time but for the readers.

1. Born of a virgin = Being empty of self.
2. Follow Jesus = Deny your self.
3. Pick up the cross = Dont get lured.

You must be empty of self, half of a half second is enough, then you understand the scriptures.
Sin means to miss the mark.

 

[Bella Vita]

I have no problem that you dont agree with me bella.

I m not saying it was written by paul before he was born again, it was written by paul after he had been born again, but he was talking about his predicament before he was born again.

1. See above. It was in present tense, but not how he presently was. Many, many scriptures from romans wont back up that paul was talking about his current predicament.

2. Paul starts off by saying...We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Paul at that time wasn't unspiritual, he had received the holy spirit. How could he be talking about being unspiritual if he was talking as if thats how he presently was?

3. Paul before he bacame paul, was saul a pharisee, the pharisees did care about what God wanted, they studied their scriptures more than the rest. Saul definetely cared about what God wanted...Jesus's problem with the pharisees was, not that they didn't have a zeal for God, it was that they thought what they were doing...i.e following the law was what God wanted...but it lead them to become haughty people. God did want people to follow the law (or try because thats all they could do try...he knew that, thats what pauls talking about here). up until jesus died and was raised up and it showed or it should have shown people that they couldn't keep the law. Jesus was the answer, but now he was dealing with people that thought what they were doing was enough they rejected jesus because they had confidence in the law, and they became haughty about it...their thinking was God views me more favourable because i follow the law/pray/read the bible better/more than anybody else. Jesus was bringing them down from their haughtiness because what they were doing wasn't enough anyway...they needed Jesus to die for them so they could be born again in the spiritual realm and put the flesh that held them slaves to sin to death. The church people nowadays are no different to the pharisees. They need to change course.

4.Again, paul is writing this when he was born again, i ve never disagreed with that, but he was writing about how he was before the event. Again paul was a pharisee he wanted to please God.

5. Saul was a pharisee, he wasn't saved but was definetely concerned about worship. The pharisees were very religious people.

Look forward to your answers Bella if you would be kind enough.

I feel like you have some serious theology confusion. And I mean this in the nicest way. You are saying that once someone is saved they no longer sin and that is just ridiculous. There has not been a perfect person to walk the Earth besides Jesus and never will be another. Our flesh is cursed it is a reality we all have to face. We are called to not sin and to try and not sin and to work toward being Christ-like. But it is a battle it is a journey one that doesn't end until we die. The Bible is clear that sanctification is a process. So even Christians who love God and serve God are going to sin they are going to make mistakes no one is perfect.

You have almost an arrogance about they way you reply almost as if you think you are better than everyone else. I guess the real question here is do you sin?

This whole business that the Bible is only for those with the holy spirit is crazy. How do you think I became a christian? I picked up a Bible and started reading it up until then I had nothing else to teach me about God. Once I started reading about God I started realizing my sin and my need for a savior. So no the Bible is not just for saved people. Jesus and God do not just speak to saved people if that was the case unsaved people would never become saved people.

 

[David Waffen]

Bring back the fire and brimstone~!

 

[bobbarry]

No probs bella...i dont think we have too much more to discuss. Take care pal. Thanks for reply's.

 

[Bella Vita]

No probs bella...i dont think we have too much more to discuss. Take care pal. Thanks for reply's.

Right so since you can't answer the very clear question of are you saved but still sin? Because if you said no you would be lying and uh sinning. You just run away. The fact that you claim to be saved and still sin and are not perfect just proves my point. Christians still sin they don't have a perfect life they are never promised a perfect life. If anything they are promised more struggles.

You clearly are not Baptist nor do you believe in our theology so you really should't even be posting here. Run away on your high horse it's probably for the best.

 

[bobbarry]

Says the girl who didn't even respond to the 5 points i made . Good luck for the future would just like to add on point 5 i said...saul, wasn't saved what i meant to say was he didn't have the holy spirit at that time...it was a mistake on my part. Not once have i ever touched on people being saved or not. Anytime i ve mentioned people not having the holy spirit most people have came back with saying they're saved or i was questioning their salvation...wasn't the case.

 

[Alias1234]

This whole business that the Bible is only for those with the holy spirit is crazy.

Do you not need to be empty of self so that what is called the holy spirit can enter.
The story begins with the virgin birth, does that not mean that you must be empty of self.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

You cant touch that what is left.
As soon as you eat from its fruit do you take your self as something.

You are saying that once someone is saved they no longer sin and that is just ridiculous.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them, they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

You are free from your self in the kingdom of god.
It sounds like hell to me if you are about loving your self and finding your self when you hate your self.

 

[bobbarry]

I ll just pick on one point Alias

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them, they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

Brilliant scripture that we dont get from christians.

People keep questioning my theology .

But that scripture backs up exactly what i ve been saying.

The mistake people will make is they'll read that and think i better stop sinning now. But the important piece of the scripture is...because God's seed remains in them...thats what they're missing. Thats why they cant stop sinning...it's not their fault. They dont have that seed, get that seed and it's very possible to live your life above sin.

As you are at present it's impossible, your in the same position that ruled between Moses and Jesus. Your living without that seed and trying to stop sinning. Thats not what God wants from you. He wants you to be born of God. He wants to put the flesh nature to death. It's that that makes you a slave to sin.

 

[Bella Vita]

Do you not need to be empty of self so that what is called the holy spirit can enter.
The story begins with the virgin birth, does that not mean that you must be empty of self.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

You cant touch that what is left.
As soon as you eat from its fruit do you take your self as something.



"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them, they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

You are free from your self in the kingdom of god.
It sounds like hell to me if you are about loving your self and finding your self when you hate your self.

Really so Paul called himself the chief sinner of no reason. Please site these verses. And again not one of you can tell me you don't sin. You love God you believe in God you are following God yet you live every day perfect. Are you kidding me I live God and I follow God but I am not so high and mighty that I don't think I sin or think I a perfect just because I am a Christian. I will struggle with sin and temptation until the day I do. I have a sneaky suspicion you will do because you are a human being and you aren't Jesus Christ!

 

[Bella Vita]

I am done I will not sit here and continue fighting with people who honestly think that when someone becomes a Christian they suddenly become perfect over night never to sin again a day in their life. Nothing about that is Biblical at all. Especially when asked you can't even say that you sin.

Your not even a baptist nor is what you are saying baptist theology so you need to stop posting in here cause you are breaking the rules.

So I am done wasting my time with this.

 

[graciesings]

Right so since you can't answer the very clear question of are you saved but still sin? Because if you said no you would be lying and uh sinning. You just run away. The fact that you claim to be saved and still sin and are not perfect just proves my point. Christians still sin they don't have a perfect life they are never promised a perfect life. If anything they are promised more struggles.

You clearly are not Baptist nor do you believe in our theology so you really should't even be posting here. Run away on your high horse it's probably for the best.

LOL, Bella, the joke is on you! I don't think there's anything wrong with non-Baptists posting in the Baptist forum. At least they don't get banned for it...
If you look a few pages earlier, I made a bunch of posts on this thread. Then everyone either agreed with me or quit arguing. Why is that significant? I'm joining the Catholic church. So if I can post here, Bobbarry sure can.

 

[bobbarry]

Thank you for your kind words Gracie. The thread went downhill without breaks

The jokes on you Bella lol...just playing .

You wrote I am not so high and mighty

I dont know how many times i ve said that it's not people's fault that there struggling in their sin, that doesn't sound like someone who's high and mighty to me.

Bella if you go back and reply to the five points i made about Paul from your notes, i will tell you if i live above sin or not.

Fair?

 

[bobbarry]

Bella,

just read your notes in your profile. Very Interesting reading. Sometimes we forget how hard others lives have been in the past and we dont take that into account when talking to each other.

The last thing i m here to do is discourage any christian...young or old.

Christianity has helped you make much more positive changes in your life by the sounds of things and i sincerely hope they continue.

When i was your age which was only about 6 years ago i was out drinking, tearing it up...not at church taking notes about paul from romans...so you've got a head start on me anyway

I m going to let you off with replying about the notes from romans...just this once

 

[Alias1234]

Really so Paul called himself the chief sinner of no reason.

We are followers of Jesus and the main thing Jesus said, that overrides whatever has been said is.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

We love Jesus for the understanding, he brings the most close self to the surface as we understand.
We can not run away from that understanding without denying Jesus because also that most close self is to be denied.
"Will you really lay down your life for me? Very truly I tell you, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!"

 

[bobbarry]

Alias...I believe paul was talking about how he was before being born again here.

When stephen was stoned to death in the bible, we learn saul was there, i m sure saul didn't partake in the actual stoning but he did agree with it maybe even encourage it...i cant remember the scripture exactly, if anyone wants to look it up and there's other instances of how saul was not only a sinner but could be described as a chief sinner at the time...I dont believe that Paul was born again with the actual spirit of God and could be described as a sinner at present, that can be argued because nearly everyone believes that to be true because they're missing other important verses.

But i know there is no way that paul had the holy spirit and he was a chief sinner. You would think a chief would mean he was saying he sinned at present more than anyone...make up your own mind on that...i m only telling you that from my mindset, but there will be scriptures in romans that will make it clear that paul was talking about how he was instead of how he currently is....if you look carefully enough you'll find them.

One thing i ve never noticed before is this...there's a scripture somewhere from paul might not even be in Romans that describes when he spoke to unsaved people or something along these lines, he spoke to them like he was one of them, wondering if anyone can find me the verses and see if we can connect them up...the scripture i ve quoted is just a vague paraphrase but it's not too far away from what the scripture say. Could be a clue in why paul spoke in present tense a lot of the time, as if thats how he currently was. Because if he wanted people to listen he was going to talk to them like he was one of them...Paul was no fool

 

[bobbarry]

I know you didn't write that he was Alias...just throwing in my two cents ...

 

[alex2165]

"answer me this...with what are we born again with?? we are born again by the spirit...the holy spirit of God."

Bobbarry, you did not read carefully my previous post, in which I explained what it means to be "born again", but I will explain to you in a different way.
Yes "born again" means to be born from the Holy Spirit of GOD, but such rebirth only comes from the knowledge and understanding of the Holy Spirit, which all comes from the Holy Bible, from the Word of GOD.

So, it has to be a reason why Holy Spirit do rebirth in person's heart, it cannot be happen without a reason, otherwise all people of the world who believe in Christ can receive Holy Spirit and "born again", no matter if they are true Christians or not.

And the reason why Holy Spirit comes to a person to make him or her spiritually born again, it because the soul of such person has been change, due to the knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scripture of GOD, the Bible. Word of GOD changes people for the better, of course only those who accept the word of GOD truly, with their whole heart and with their whole soul, and followed GOD'S Laws, statutes, and commandments, and left all earthly things behind, and dedicated their life only to GOD.

And such people live for GOD and die in GOD, because word of GOD, the Bible, changed their minds and their life into completely different direction, and because of it such people become spiritual people, and have spiritual rebirth, and according to that they obtained from the knowledge and understanding of the Word of GOD, they have faith, and Holy Spirit seeing such deep faith, comes and resides in the souls of such people and guides them through their lives.

This is "born again" when the knowledge and understanding of the Bible changed you life. We have to make an effort on our part to be born again through the knowledge and understanding of the Holy Bible, and then the Holy Spirit will do the rest. I do not know any other way by which person can be "born again" unless he or she possess the knowledge and understanding of the word of GOD first, and implement statutes and commandments of GOD in their lives, which is also will generate faith in GOD and in His power and might.

Spiritual Birth "born again" only can be obtain if your faith reaches the faith of Abraham, because when Abraham decided to sacrifice his only beloved son for GOD, he did not look back, and did not withhold the most precious thing in his life his only son, and because of it at this moment Abraham was spiritually born again, and not as a physical being, but as the spiritual new being, because he had such spiritual faith in GOD that he did not spare his only physical son.

And such spiritual rebirth applies also and to us, we should not take hold of anything on this Earth, and shall not attach ourselves to anything earthly, but to look to the Heavenly Kingdom, to His spiritual world, not to drag our physical precious material things into Heaven and to be attached to them with whole out heart, but to put everything earthly on the second place, and instead accumulate different kind of precious things, the spiritual ones, the compassion, mercy, understanding, love, and all kind of goodness.

If you have such spiritual luggage and left all material thing behind, this means you are spiritually born again, and at any moment ready to leave this Earth and join together with your Maker, forever and ever.

I do not want to make this post too long, so I will try to be short. The spiritual birth comes within our hearts, in our soul-spirit due to the Word of GOD which inspires us and teach us wisdom of GOD, and when our soul is clean from every material earthly attachments, only then the Holy Spirit occupies our heart - soul, and dwells in us until we physically die.

Concerning Saul, the Holy Spirit descended on him not because he was godly, but because he was ungodly in this instance, to humiliate Saul as king, and to show to all Israel the power of GOD Who can change even Saul, the evil king, who resisted to the will of the Lord in number of occasions, and who also pursued David unjustly, and to make of him a laughing stock, a prophet for a short time but the naked one, in order to show to the people that even if he prophesying, he still is not with GOD, and did not have spiritual rebirth, and to show to everyone what no one can go against the will of GOD.

Holy Spirit also was and with Judas, the traitor of Jesus Christ, when Jesus send His 12 Apostles to preach, to heal, and even to resurrect the dead, Judas was among them, and under the Holy Spirit done all these miraculous things, but it does not prevented him to betray his Master, because he was not spiritually born.

So you may ask, "Why when Jesus allowed Holy Spirit to descend on him and to conduct such marvelous thing in the name of GOD?", because GOD is extremely patient and tolerant GOD, and gives to all sinners plenty of time to repent, and in this instance Judas experience amazing power of GOD, and conducted miracles just like GOD does, and had plenty of time to realize that Jesus Christ is not just some sort of magician, but He is the true Son of GOD, so he can repent and change his ways. So GOD'S Holy Spirit was on Judas to save him, but Judas did not took it to his heart.

See, Judas was still earthly men even after Holy Spirit gave him such powers, and 30 shekels of silver was more important to him than anything else, because he never been spiritually born again from the words of GOD but remaining always as an earthly man, and he traded everlasting spiritual life for the earthly temporary thing, that a pity!

Among us many such Judas, who pretended to be godly, and religiously attending the church, and pray loudly in public, and raises they hands to heaven, but when it comes to sacrifice something for GOD or to lose something in the name of GOD, they quickly stepping back, and of course have many reasons for it. Such people are still earthly and never been born again spiritually, but attached their hearts to material things, to their families, to their children, and to everything they own, and holding on to it to the last day of their lives. Unless you have knowledge and understanding of GOD and give up all earthly material things, you cannot be born again.

 

[Alias1234]

"answer me this...with what are we born again with?? we are born again by the spirit...the holy spirit of God."

Judas had the holy spirit but he was not ready, it was unexpectedly, it was to painful for him.
Jesus had the holy spirit, "Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."
Then as you know did Jesus die on that cross and he became free from him self.
That is why he said, deny your self (receive the holy spirit), pick up the cross (it might be painful if you resist the holy spirit) and follow me.

Faith in Jesus is to ease the struggle when the holy spirit comes.

 

[David Waffen]

We are followers of Jesus and the main thing Jesus said, that overrides whatever has been said is.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

We love Jesus for the understanding, he brings the most close self to the surface as we understand.
We can not run away from that understanding without denying Jesus because also that most close self is to be denied.
"Will you really lay down your life for me? Very truly I tell you, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!"

Except if you think you do not sin after being saved, you are deceiving yourself.