What are we doing wrong as christians.

[bobbarry]

Anyone else frustrated?? I ll answer that myself...yes you probably are! Lost count of how many people i see on the internet, churches etc tired and frustrated defeated with it all. How many posts do we see on here alone talking about it and yet the answers are always the same and yet they never work. Jesus talked about being baptised with the holy spirit and yet i dont know a single person that has it, i know many people talk about having it, where the fruits are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control...i see plenty of people imitating these things but no one who actually has them as their nature. Who's been set free from sins completely, i mean no sin has control over there life, thats the type of promises jesus made.


The one who practises sin is of the devil...that is actually the words from the scriptures...and yet we all claim to be people with sin/s especially when we hold it up against some of jesus's interpretation of sin. We can go through quote after quote of jesus's and either jesus was wrong or failed or the problem lies with what we're doing. I think the vast majority of people are stuck in sin no matter how hard we try to defeat it, the harder we try, the harder it becomes, we are quick to blame the devil, you must defeat him by overcoming sin and that all sounds well and good but here's my thoughts jesus/god have domination over the devil, it's the devil who's wicked and god has no part of that, but i believe we're doing something wrong in getting god to act and he's frustrating us into doing something that works, thats why he allows the devil to wreck lives etc to a stage we need god so much that we have no other option but to rely on him, it doesn't have to happen that way, god doesn't want that for you but if it brings you to god he'll let it happen so he can give you joy, peace etc etc) and what works to get him to act is not what the church teaches ...thats what i think, controversial i know . I think the problem is simple we aren't born again, we may have been at one point but we've reverted back to the flesh at some point. How do we get re-born again...here are our answers to that, read the bible more, go to church, do good things, pray, stop sinning, and yet for the vast majority it doesn't work...we still dont have the holy spirit, we're to go off living frustrated lives until god decides its time which in the majority of cases it never happens.


I ve actually had the holy spirit before for a prolonged period of time say 4 or 5 months thats what makes it all the more frustrating, i know how absolutely amazing god is, how much love he has for every single person regardless of their sin and i dont care how big a man/woman you are how much of an atheist you are, when you feel the presence of god you know your dealing with the most awe-inspiring being there ever has been or ever will be, it cannot fully be described it doesn't matter what you've been through when you get it, it's been worthwhile. Im not talking about feeling his presence, then it's gone until another convenient time, i m talking about having his presence with you continually having unbelievable joy continually, i m not a big man or that but i ve seen many so called tough people shaking around me with me just talking to them being friendly to them, unable to look at me when i had the presence of god they were genuinely fearful and humble totally respectful...not now though without the presence of god. Just an example of the power of god.
Whatever i was doing at the time worked, i had lost it then had it back again but lost it again, i know he can keep giving you the spirit back no matter how many times you lose it. When i first received the holy spirit, i definetely couldn't be described as churchy or religious or a bible reader, i prayed one night for probably the first time i just asked for help if he was there and things started to happen the very next day. After i lost it after a while months i think, i earnestly/constantly prayed for it back and after about a week maybe 2 got it, i never read the bible in the week/2 of praying and have done that more than once but that was over ten years ago now. I think my problem is not that god wont forgive me and give me or you the holy spirit, its that we're doing something wrong, something we're teaching in the churches isn't working.


I only really got into religion more as such after i lost it for the last time, (i read the bible while i had it...around 30 minutes was enough) and i ve never had it back since. I read my bible now maybe 2 hours per day, i enjoy reading it i need it to function tbh but compared to how much i understood it when i had the holy spirit i ll be honest i dont, it makes me feel better i usually read quickly but tried slowly and still cant understand it like i did, with the holy spirit it was simple i understood everything that i read and everything from the beginning to the end all connected, when you see it from the eyes of god, all the verses are connected, no one could write it but god, you'll never fully see that without the spirit. I ve sat in prayer, but eventually gave up no matter how hard i try, tried fasting same again and especially tried to stop sinning but in the end you just cant seem to beat it and even if you do it still wont give you the joy. Anyway sorry for the massive post, here's the real reason i wrote it....
here's what i think the answer is...controversial but lets be honest so was jesus when the people heard him...i think the answer is the bible reading, thats whats stopping us from the holy spirit, it's actually holding us back, no one is doubting that it's the word of god, but i dont think it should be read before being born again with the spirit of god, be born again then it's time to read. Try reading the bible then start praying to god continually, asking him for help repeatedly i know theirs a scripture about not using repetition but it did say vain repetition i think jesus was making a different point here and jesus used repetition in his prayers also. I think at best you'll do a full day praying then you'll read the scriptures again and then start praying like that again after so long you'll give up eventually, the bible reading still feeds us spiritually just enough that we dont totally hunger enough for god we need to seek god's face...try persistantly asking god for help without any bible reading, stop reading the bible completely until you receive the spirit from god, it gets easy, its like you become so spiritually hungry from the lack of bible reading that you then start to rely on god. I started five days ago i m feeling much much less frustrated in my walk and i have a feeling that big big things are ahead, it becomes a habit...its not really difficult, it's when you add the bible reading the praying becomes difficult. When their's a reward so great at the end of it, you hunger and thirst for it so much that it becomes easier, the majority of us hunger and thirst for god but few are being watered and fed if we're being honest.


I know that people will probably condemn me advising them to stop reading their bible, but how many people that enter church are advised too read it and yet the results are plain to see, it's not working, try it for another ten years, try reading it for ten hours per day...it still wont work...the pharisees tried the same thing and were condemned for it. Go to any church around you...guess what you'll see plenty of people trying to be nice, people with good intentions, but people without the joy jesus promised.


I hope anyone reading this maybe going through hard times, ready to give up in their faith, angry at god, not believing god is big enough or is big enough but wont help them or desperately needing answers it can give them some hope. I dont have the spirit yet i only stopped reading the bible and started praying constantly or as much as possible...sometimes just asking for help again and again five days ago but already i feel that it's coming and it's been a long time since i ve had that type of hope, even with the 2 hours plus bible reading...

sorry for the long post.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Welcome to the modern world, where people are too busy with their daily lives to look at anything else.

Welcome to the modern world, where the liberal media and left wing politicians have driven religion beneath the ground.

Welcome to the modern world, where going to church is not cool, and younger generations have no interest.

Welcome to the modern world, where people don't like to be told what to do and how to live.

Welcome to the modern world, where people have a hard time trying to justify giving 10% of their income to the church, when they can barely afford to live as is.

Welcome to the modern world, where science proves more and more, and discoveries to advance technology are made every day.

Welcome to the modern world, where violence dominates our entertainment, and people have lost touch with the compassionate side of humanity.

Welcome to the modern world, where Christians do not truly love one another; instead they attack each other over different beliefs and opinions, while being a two faced hypocrite.

 

[USCGrad90]

Right now, I'm going through some financial issues that have me down and struggling to deal with what is coming at me. Sometimes it's frustrating to know I keep doing the same wrong things and making the same mistakes over and over. It's hard for me to devote time to scripture and sometimes I just don't want to go to church. But - as bad and worthless as I sometimes feel - I still know that I have Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit leaves us once we have accepted Christ. We may choose to ignore it and go our own way, but pushing away scripture is not the answer for me. Maybe pushing away the media of the world is better - TV, movies, radio, internet - all have things that detract from our Christian walk.

Primi is right that we live in a world of instant gratification with anythng we want to watch on TV, stores and restaurants open 24 hours, and so on. As Christians, I think we can get caught up in the same way of thinking - wanting to feel "Godly" or "filled with the spirit" all of the time. In the end, I think we are weak in the flesh and will continue making mistakes, but the Holy Spirit and sacrifice of Christ gives us the promise of something better in the end.

 

[bobbarry]

Thanks for the reply, not totally sure what angle your coming from, but would like to find out more, totally agree with what you've posted though. Thats all true in my opinion. I m saying the modern world are making these mistakes BUT so is the church/christians of the day. I ll tell you something about the church though their intentions aren't bad, a lot of them start out wanting to live for jesus etc, there's no doubt a lot of people are hungry/desperately seeking god, they read for hours, they pray for hours, they deny their sin nature and yet the vast majority aren't being changed, yes outwardly not inwardly though.

And the answer to their problems is read more, pray more, stop sinning, or your living in grace you don't feel it you'll not actually defeat sin in your life but it's true...and yet you'll never feel it, you just believe and go on living defeated christian lives...deluding yourself in the process.

Thats not what jesus talked of, we can take scriptures from paul or anyone else and counteract what jesus said, but i know who i ll be listening to if it's a choice between jesus and paul! I think we dont understand scriptures at all whatsoever without the holy spirit and that's why even on here i noticed they'res so many different denominations that it's embarrasing, go into most churches today and underneath the hi, welcome's, how are you's you'll see qaurelling behind the scenes, no life no joy, people on different pages, pastors without real answers.

Either jesus lied in what he said, he failed in what he did or we as people are doing something wrong and i know jesus isn't a liar or failure. He succeded not so you can go to heaven but so you can be born anew here and now and live abudantly joyful lives, joy that we dont even know excisted. When people went to jesus for help in the bible did he turn people away? but nowadays he must have had a change of heart i see desperate people going to jesus/god and yet their lives are getting worse, their successes are getting less. Nowadays according to some it's according to God's timing...you get yes, no and maybe prayers now haha, your desperate are you?? well i ll give you a maybe then come back again after reading 10 hours of the bible everyday and prayer and you'll maybe even get a yes next time, whats that your suicidal, sorry its a No this time i m afraid.

I m saying it's what we're doing thats wrong...every single christian that goes to church or even just wants to be a private christian or whatever all do the same thing...they start by reading their bible's, praying some of them fast, some of them even become totally devoted and yet behind closed doors there's not really that much difference between a so called wordly person and a christian. Wwe talk of joy and how happy we are to serve and yet we dont have any real victory whatsoever.

I m saying how to get to God is not through reading the bible, you have to stop reading all together and turn your face to God for help and then he will help, we've been killing our walk by going straight to the bible. It's the word of God but it's not for someone thats not been born again, thats the mistake we make, we come to it before receiving the spirit, receive the spirit then go to the bible thats my answer, because either all christians are doing something wrong, we love to condemn ourselfs dont we, the internet is full of it you must try harder etc etc, or jesus has lied and i know what one i believe. God reject's us when we read the word before being born again because we begin to work for our salvation...we wont steal god's glory, he will give you glory but not until he gets whats deserved.

Also on a closing note, i ve put up a post about real issues here, there's been many people viewing it and yet only one person was polite enough to answer and yet without wanting to offend(which i know he probably will be) someone has put up a post about burning incense and has about 30 replies...that is wrong, wrong, wrong....and you all know it.

 

[USCGrad90]

Thanks for the reply, not totally sure what angle your coming from, but would like to find out more, totally agree with what you've posted though. Thats all true in my opinion. I m saying the modern world are making these mistakes BUT so is the church/christians of the day. I ll tell you something about the church though their intentions aren't bad, a lot of them start out wanting to live for jesus etc, there's no doubt a lot of people are hungry/desperately seeking god, they read for hours, they pray for hours, they deny their sin nature and yet the vast majority aren't being changed, yes outwardly not inwardly though.

And the answer to their problems is read more, pray more, stop sinning, or your living in grace you don't feel it you'll not actually defeat sin in your life but it's true...and yet you'll never feel it, you just believe and go on living defeated christian lives...deluding yourself in the process.

Thats not what jesus talked of, we can take scriptures from paul or anyone else and counteract what jesus said, but i know who i ll be listening to if it's a choice between jesus and paul! I think we dont understand scriptures at all whatsoever without the holy spirit and that's why even on here i noticed they'res so many different denominations that it's embarrasing, go into most churches today and underneath the hi, welcome's, how are you's you'll see qaurelling behind the scenes, no life no joy, people on different pages, pastors without real answers.

Either jesus lied in what he said, he failed in what he did or we as people are doing something wrong and i know jesus isn't a liar or failure. He succeded not so you can go to heaven but so you can be born anew here and now and live abudantly joyful lives, joy that we dont even know excisted. When people went to jesus for help in the bible did he turn people away? but nowadays he must have had a change of heart i see desperate people going to jesus/god and yet their lives are getting worse, their successes are getting less. Nowadays according to some it's according to God's timing...you get yes, no and maybe prayers now haha, your desperate are you?? well i ll give you a maybe then come back again after reading 10 hours of the bible everyday and prayer and you'll maybe even get a yes next time, whats that your suicidal, sorry its a No this time i m afraid.

I m saying it's what we're doing thats wrong...every single christian that goes to church or even just wants to be a private christian or whatever all do the same thing...they start by reading their bible's, praying some of them fast, some of them even become totally devoted and yet behind closed doors there's not really that much difference between a so called wordly person and a christian. Wwe talk of joy and how happy we are to serve and yet we dont have any real victory whatsoever.

I m saying how to get to God is not through reading the bible, you have to stop reading all together and turn your face to God for help and then he will help, we've been killing our walk by going straight to the bible. It's the word of God but it's not for someone thats not been born again, thats the mistake we make, we come to it before receiving the spirit, receive the spirit then go to the bible thats my answer, because either all christians are doing something wrong, we love to condemn ourselfs dont we, the internet is full of it you must try harder etc etc, or jesus has lied and i know what one i believe. God reject's us when we read the word before being born again because we begin to work for our salvation...we wont steal god's glory, he will give you glory but not until he gets whats deserved.

Also on a closing note, i ve put up a post about real issues here, there's been many people viewing it and yet only one person was polite enough to answer and yet without wanting to offend(which i know he probably will be) someone has put up a post about burning incense and has about 30 replies...that is wrong, wrong, wrong....and you all know it.

I think you were responding to Primi, but I think you've posted a good topic with real concerns here.

A couple of points I would like to address here:
- Reading the Bible is only part of the process. I can read an auto repair manual all I want, but until I actually get the tools out and work on the car, I cannot apply the knowledge I find and I will not actually repair the car. I don't think the answer is to stop reading the Bible, but to apply what is found therin to our lives and the lives of those around us. Referring back to the "ultimate repair manual" can only clarify and expand our knowledge of what needs to be done.
- I don't think the Bible is just for those who have already received the Holy Spirit or are even seeking it. I used to serve as a Gideon and placed Bibles in hotels and doctor's offices. There are a lot of unsaved people that aren't actively looking for Christ who become saved by finding one of those scriptures that was placed there. The scriptures are (among other things) useful for teaching per 2 Timothy 3:16 and as a lamp for our feet and light for our paths per Psalm 119:105. For those on the wrong path - a scripture found in an unexpected place can bring them to the path to Christ.
- I don't believe that we can work for our salvation. There is nothing that we can do to EVER earn salvation or remove the imperfections that exist in each one of us. Salvation is a gift of God that is freely given if we choose to receive it.

From John 1:12: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." I think this is a key verse, because we need to BECOME what Christ intends for us. The "becoming" is the last step that many Christians need to work on. We can receive the Word and believe the Word - but if we never become the Word, we never have that inward change . Simply reading the Bible, attending church, and praying won't result in real joy and contentment unless we act on what the Holy Spirit gives.

 

[USCGrad90]

[Staff Deletion of quoted post]

We'll have to disagree on my ever having received Christ or the Holy Spirit. You're coming at this with a much different opinion and view of the Holy Spirit than I have. The Holy Spirit has done things in me and with me that I could not do myself, so I don't want to argue this point or try to find a way to prove it to you. I have all of the confidence I need in my own Salvation.

The main thing I will refer to is the scripture of Romans 7, where Paul talks about his own struggle with sin. Verse 15: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Many Christians may wonder how Paul, a dedicated follower of Christ and key contributor to our scripture, struggled with sin. The key is recognizing that because Paul lived with the Holy Spirit and had such a passionate life for God that he intensely felt his sins - no matter how small they might be as judged by us.

We all have a sinful nature. I think it's pointless to deny it, but recognizing and fighting that nature is part of the Holy Spirit working within us. YES - I do believe if I read more scripture, pray more, and in general devote myself to Christ - that I can prevent repeating the same mistakes I have made in the past. It will not be those acts alone that make the difference, but my action based on the movement of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bobbarry. Yes, what? Let`s think about it. In Matthew 22: 35-40:
Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Do we do that? we start but then we give up, it seems too hard. But wait: we are told to ask and receive. Matthew 7: 7-10
we start, but after a while give up, it is not for us. But God wants it from us, and we can ignore it, but not for long. God still wants our Love with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves.
The Bible tells us to "Repent," and also to " Be Born Again." We cannot ignore this forever, God wants our Love, freely given and No conditions tagged on.
We believe that God will say the Word, and then we will be able to love as God wants us to love. But we do know that God will never force us, we always have to ask and be given, that is a promise from God. The truth is: if we want to follow God`s Commandments, we better start now, it is never too late.
Treat all we know and all we meet,, friends and not friends, treat them as we would love to treated: kindly and ALWAYS with friendly words. We will find that people will treat us the same as we treat people, and Love is very catching. God made us all in His image, and God is Love. We will find that to be loving and caring will bring us God`s Blessings and also will fill us with Love and Joy. It may take a long time, but we will find that we gradually change into the men and women which God wants us to become: Loving God with heart, soul and mind, and loving all around us as we love ourselves.
Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us: JESUS IS THE WAY. God wants our Love, and God will see our hearts and thoughts, as long as we aim to become as God wants us to be, God will see us as His Loving and Obedient sons and
daughters. God knows when we are pretending, or truly His Own. Let us show God our Heavenly Father that we are His, and show the world whom we represent in this imperfect world. I say this with love, bobbarry.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[bobbarry]

Sorry guys i went away and replied to usc's post got back here to copy and paste it and seen that yous had both replied again, so will reply to the earlier reply from our good man...it might cover some of what Emmy kindly replied to, but it's not a direct answer to it, i will do that after i post this one up, it's probably the longest post ever...

To usc...Yeah think that one was a reply to Primi mate, cheers for reply it's a good reply i agree with a lot of that. I m saying this how many people are trying to apply their scripture reading findings to their life's and how many people out of all the people trying are failing...i ll tell you the answer...most of them. I think what jesus was trying to say was that living the christian life in your own strength is impossible, thats why he said the sermon on the mount about if you look at a woman thats adultery, if you are angry at your brother thats hatred, he was emphasising the point...you couldn't do it in your own strength, it's impossible. Later he goes on to say you must love God and your neighbour that sums it up the law. I say go out there from tomorrow and try to genuinely love your neighbour i dont mean trying to be nice to them etc i mean genuine love them. It wont work, no one has love until there born again not the world and not people who are christians in the church today even though they are nice enough through effort and good intentions. We're trying to get blood out of a stone.

We fail and then we say we must try harder it pleases God, and yet we fail again and again then we take the massive promises of jesus and say they weren't what they were meant to be and start making excuses for them it's the end that we'll get our reward we say. And yet he talked of being completely born again with the holy spirit and listed 9 things of the new nature not things that are to be imitated, then you loving your neighbour, god etc becomes naturally, we're trying to do things that are unatural to the flesh, the flesh will never love it's impossible, not your family, not your friends and not God, you will have what you believe to be love but it's not the love god talked about thats why a lot of family's today are at each others throat, relationships are falling apart, people are cheating on each other and yet 2 weeks ago they told everyone that they loved each other more than anyone in the world for example.

God will give you real love in your heart and then it's not effort, it's natural to you, and that is him fulfilling the law, he does it all for you by giving you it. Thats what we should all be chasing. But it's how do we get it...and i honestly think it's the bible reading, i m saying people that have tried and read and prayed constantly etc and still dont have victory and they'll know when they have it, sins totally forgiven, the power of sin removed, it becomes unnatural to sin, because it's written in your heart. I say stop reading the bible all together and start just praying constantly for help for days it's actually not that difficult when you get started and i feel that i m on the right path. People might totally disagree with this but i m saying to them how many months/years have you tried reading the bible, striving, trying to do live according to it and failing, they dont have real love, they secretely sin behind closed doors, some are down/depressed/suicidal, how many years will this go on, try it for another ten years and see if your tired of it yet before trying a bold step you think God will punish you for stopping reading it for a time?, i think God has been trying to show people for years that what we're doing will not work, the spirit comes first before reading the bible then you read when you receive it.

The main reason i m saying it is because i prayed quite fervently for five days straight when i stopped reading the bible, and it wasn't difficult to do and i started feeling like i was on the right path and when i looked back to when i received the spirit all them years ago i was never a big bible reader but i got quite big into praying. After the five days i started reading the bible again and went back to praying and i prayed probably more fervently for a couple of hours and after that i stopped i couldn't do it and i ve been unable to do it since, you get broken down by it, i ve stopped reading the bible again and i m still not praying yet but i know in a couple of days i bet i start up again and i bet i ll get the victory i vetalked about.

It's holding us back, it is the word of God, but you receive the spirit first then you read. I agree with your points about people being saved that found the bible you left i can't explain that to be honest it's like these people were just ready to be saved...it's true what you said the scripture's is for teaching but for me there meaning people with the spirit, the scriptures will teach you after the spirit opens your mind etc it's still needed to teach. Some of us have been reading for years and yet we're no further forward, some of us are actually bigger sinners than when we started i think it's part of god's plan, we're going to get to the point which has already begun where the majority give up on what we know as religion, we've tried with everything we've got and realised it doesn't work the way as advertised and find out it's time to try something else thats when we'll look to God forget the bible, receive the holy spirit then pick our bibles back up.

Looking at the scripture you've qouted here's my interpretation of it...it says to all who received him and believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of god. I think the important word here is right, he gave them the right to become children of god but a right has to be excercised for it to come into play, we're not excercising that right and also the vast majority have not received him either, we have with our mind, we've prayed a prayer to receice him but until you get the holy spirit you've not received him and become a child of God and when you receive the holy spirit regardless of what people tell you, you'll know 100% and you will have joy that you cant describe i dont mean for an hour or a day or a week i mean forever...thats what we're playing for here. ps i could be wrong about the interpretation of the scripture above mate but i ll guarantee you i m not wrong about the joy part and you know who will persecute you more than anyone it will be the church people saying there going by feelings etc they wont approve of you....exactly what happened to jesus

Sorry for the long reply, pick and choose what you want to answer if there's anything that takes your interest.

 

[bobbarry]

I promise you usc if you had the holy spirit living inside you, you wouldn't be struggling at all with anything. It will blow you out of any struggle and i say that not to disappoint you or talk down on you because i dont have it either but i have in the past. You can have it and it wont help you in small ways, give you little victory here and there, people will see the difference from the very moment you receive it..they're reactions to you will be one of awe i m telling you, you will have persecutions but it wont be nearly as much as defeated christians get from the world and it wont be a big concern, the majority of people will love you...but the minority wont and the reason is they'll be jealous of you. Thats not the teaching from the church of today, but it's closer to what stephen had in the book of acts. I think paul was talking of the old nature anyway in that verse i want to say jesus said whoever i set free will be free indeed and i know who i believe more out of jesus or paul and also the same spirit that baptised jesus in the new testament will be the same one that baptises you. Do you think you would struggle with sin if that very same spirit that jesus had baptised you?? I say to you keep doing what you say about devoting yourself more to christ, read more etc etc and see if you get it...and year after year of disappointment or no real victory try what i m saying once you've had enough.

 

[bobbarry]

Emmy thank you for replying. I think you're a smart woman...and everything you said in your post is totally correct as we teach...but it wont work. You can go out and try to love people all you want, it wont be love that god talks of, you'll be trying to get blood out of a stone, and you'll be nice to people because your a decent person like most of us with good intentions but god wont bless you for it i m sorry to tell you that. I m guessing like the rest of us you live in sin, sin that you cant beat however small or big. And yet we as christians are viewed too god exactly the same way the people with the bigget sins for example...adulterers, murderers, homosexuals(sorry for including that after adulterers/murderers as if in my mind it's the same kind of sin, to me it's not to God it's the same as the smallest sin, i only say homosexuals because it's a hotly debated subject inside the church). Do you think God above is up in heaven saying look what these terrible people are doing now, they're having gay marriages i hate them even more now...he knew things like that would happen, he knows the nature of the flesh . All you need to concentrate on is not defeating sin but receiving the holy spirit and you'll be left in no doubt when you receive it, it wont be a small feeling put it that way...because you wont defeat sin until you receive the holy spirit fully regardless of how much reading, praying etc, if you receive the holy spirit the nature is no longer a sinning nature, if you keep it you will be in heaven and your life from that day forth when you received it here on earth will be one of total joy you are a new creation it's what everyone in the world craves we just dont know it, people dont believe thats posible because very few people have received it and thats my point of saying what we're doing isn't working thats why not enough people are receiving it and people go on saying what we're doing is working and it's totally against pretty much everything jesus spoke of...and jesus is still the main man in my book.

 

[bobbarry]

Again real issues and still it has had only two kind repliers and continues to have less replies than the thread about burning the incense one the good man put up, nothing wrong with the post about the incense it was about worshipping jesus more afterall - well done that man. But the church of today are obviously more interested in incense burning than talk of receiving God's holy spirit...

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Thanks for the reply, not totally sure what angle your coming from, but would like to find out more, totally agree with what you've posted though.

I am a realist. I look at facts and raw data.

People have come to expect instant gratification. They want material goods. They want to see immediate results.

Christianity offers very little with regard to those things. The reward is in the afterlife, or so we are told to believe (with blind faith). That means a lifetime of service, compassion, giving and not worrying about the hardships. That means no physical reward that you can touch, no money to pay the bills with, nothing visible to have in your home to amaze your friends with.

The modern world differs greatly from the ancient religious aspect of life. I am not saying that religion needs to change. I am saying that the modern world has broken away from religion.

 

[bobbarry]

Yes, fleshly people do want these things i ll tell you the real reason deep down regardless of what people say they're unhappy people even the richest and the ones with the most...when you get the spirit you'll understand it even though you thought you were happy enough, so they want instant gratification, sins are getting more, people are judged by what they have they need results to help cheer themselves up and feel like they're successful people the way the world sees them. Again God's not hurt or shocked by it, he wants to help them and loves every one of them the people with the most sin are usually the most unhappiest you just wont know it, not because they are nastier people its that they're trying to make themselves happy and it wont work so they get worse to try to find that happiness...what they need is the spirit...thats why god can forgive and has giving his spirit to murderers, paeodo's in the past because they done something different to receive it than what we're trying etc etc...shocking as it sounds to us but its still true.

The devil is of the flesh and breaks people down what people dont realise is that God allows it because he knows if they go far enough down they will need to trust in him then he can do his work in you, but in the current situation we're in on earth with the fallen world etc, god can only operate a certain way, he can do everything here and now but only if what your doing allows him to. God is not limited in what he can do for you but he is limited in how he can do it, due to the fall, the whole power went to the devil and he became the god of this system of things, god has wheels in motion to totally eradicate that though so he can operate under his complete control.

What about jesus saying come to me all the people that are struggling and i will give you rest...that was for the here and now, jesus's promises were for the here and now, i dont want to discourage anyone but if you turn up in your sins no matter how small, no matter how much you've tried to fight it when jesus comes down, you wont be going to heaven, we need a new approach, it's looking impossible what will we do we'll try what we've always tried and we'll get exactly the same result as we always get. I think God has a plan everyone that has died will be raised up, but at the end of the world the people that dont have the holy spirit will be destroyed but the people that have the holy spirit in that time will be many...not as little as we see today, as people will turn back to god before the end, the devil may be the ruler of this world but gods grand plans are already in place. But he wants you to have it now he doesn't want or need you to be completely beaten down before you receive it but thats how most people receive the holy spirit

modern world views of religion has changed but jesus openly chriticised ancient religion too, he wasn't being judgemental of them, what they were doing they couldn't have helped at the time it was before he died and made it possible for normal people to receive the holy spirit, how could he judge when he seemed to judge the people that were trying to keep laws that god had set in place for them he was saying to them they're no good they wont save you and before hand God gave them them through moses, he was not judging them he was emphasising his point to them to make sure they knew it was jesus that done it all through you, jesus will baptise you and thats all you need, it's how you receive that spirit is where we are all wrong with what we're teaching, it's not getting results. And we're got to be ready to change...otherwise our defeated lives will continue to struggle on.

Also i know people dont like this teaching and with bible scriptures you can rip it apart but god will bless you with materialistic things but he cant bless you with anything but the holy spirit when your in the flesh, your wondering why your not being blessed and yet the people out there living way worse lives without any regard for jesus have more than you, he will totally bless you with much more than anybody else i dont just mean materialisticaly but much more important things too, if you have the spirit you wont care if you live in a mansion or a hut, but i guarantee chances are you'll be in something closer to a mansion than a hut, he who has more will have even more...he will give you the spirit, he will give you everything and here's the difference the day you stop asking from god for anything will be the day you receive the spirit of god, and i mean anything, you will have everything you need...you wont pray for anything, you'll talk with him naturally always an it wont be any effort but you wont ask for anything, biblically you can rip that to shreds...but as i said we've tried going exactly how we see the bible and seing it with the natural man and reading it spiritually are totally different everything you think you know from your reading wont be true...i know that will get a negative reaction...but again jesus shocked too.

 

[USCGrad90]

I promise you usc if you had the holy spirit living inside you, you wouldn't be struggling at all with anything. .

I respectfully disagree with you on this. I look to Paul as an utmost example of a transformed sinner and I believe he was talking about himself in current terms. I don't find anything from Paul that contradicts what Jesus Christ taught or is revealed in other scripture. I think many theologians and other Christians - much more learned than you or I - would attest to that.

If you look at 1 Timothy 1:15-16
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life."

Paul refers to himself in the present tense - not the past. Our efforts at living righteously are useless in making us perfect and sinless. In Paul’s eyes there was no difference in the comparison of sins or the degree of sins. Sin, even the slightest sin, is enough to render the whole person as degenerate as the most sinful person ever to disgrace this earth with his or her presence.

None of us are worthy to enter the presence of God on our own merit. We enter on the merit of Jesus Christ alone. Our indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs when we receive Christ. The Holy Spirit does not leave us, but our sins can quench or grieve the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19; Ephesians 4:30)

This is where we ultimately disagree. You believe that the Holy Spirit can come in you and leave. I believe that once you have accepted Christ, the Spirit dwells in you and you either let that Spirit lead you or you make choices based on the sinful nature of your flesh. By making poor choices, you lose the benefits and joy of His presence - but the Spirit does not leave.

I can't concede this point nor can I accept that stopping my reading of the Bible will improve my relationship with Christ. God provided His Word for us as a source of His wisdom and insight and Jesus left the Holy Spirit to comfort, guide, and teach us in His place. To dismiss either or say they hold us back to me is simply incorrect. They work together for our benefit. No disrespect intended to you, but I simply think your point of view is counter to my beliefs and basic Baptist theology.

You admit that you can't explain why non-Christians and those not seeking salvation are transformed by the reading of scripture in a lonely hotel room, but you still insist that we shouldn't approach scripture until we accept the Holy Spirit. I counter that the Spirit can lead us to scripture, which in turn will reveal God's plan for us and allow us to accept Christ, which ultimately results in the Holy Spirit Dwelling within us.

I know I'm countering and commenting on a lot of what you have posted, but I really think that this topic and ultimately YOU are important enough to share my beliefs and understanding, even at the risk of offending you. I sincerely hope that it will not offend and that ultimately you find what God has planned for you.

 

[bobbarry]

You dont offend me in the slightest my friend...your a good man. I will reply to that with this the holy spirit that we talk of is the exact same holy spirit that jesus, stephen, paul, moses etc were baptised with...can we agree with that??, there is no other holy spirit, the same miracles that these people done can be done today through you...jesus said something of this saying through him you will go on to do greater works than me, you can interpret that passage any way you want like we've done with pauls no one can come to a definate answer but if we take jesus for what it reads like we've done with paul we then deny him by saying no we cant or it was a figure of speech or it was a parable which was it??, we better get back to quoting one small passage from paul again which he might even have been in the past tense we cant be sure.

We've even stopped quoting jesus because what he said doesn't rack up with our spiritless lives too, not because what jesus said wasn't 100 percent true but because what we're seeing in our lives isn't what's in tune with what he promised us. I think another of jesus's was by their fruits you'll will recognise my disciples. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles or words to that effect...we've analyse what paul says a lot but we dont analyse jesus all that much...lets be honest the fruits of the church of today isn't that much different from the world, the only difference is we try to fight sins and still we fail again and again but because we try hard we will get a reward at the end, the pharisees tried hard, jesus said it difefrent and many many scriptures outside of jesus backs it up too, he said your trying hard is no use if we go back to the scripture above about the fruits lets look at the question he asks do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles...the thistle or thornbushes represents the flesh and it cannot bear good fruits thats what we're stuck in now, as hard as we try we cant bear the good fruits that he wants because it's not natural to the flesh, he was trying to tell them you need to be born again. If you get born again no sin will have power over you, you will not struggle with any sin, you wont be a slave to it, but how you lose it is when you go back to sin, you have the choice.

At the present no one on here or in the churches that i can see has that choice or freedom from it we believe we have but yet every one of us is failing thats not a choice my friend. I ll tell you something if this spirit that i talk of is available as i say, the scriptures would suddenly start making a lot more sense and everything jesus said was right, i dont like quoting scripture then explaining it to be honest, all the christians do that nowadays and yet none of them lives above sin but i m pretty sure if i try hard enough i can biblically back up everything i ve said and it would start to make more sense and it would back up everything jesus said.

What we're doing is we're not seeing what jesus said in our lives so we then revert back to paul, it was the same spirit that wrote the bible through different people but i still would go by the words of jesus before i would paul.

You dont have a relationship with christ as is i m sorry to tell you that my friend, go and pray to jesus right now, you wont hear a single word from him, the holy spirit or god...thats not a relationship, god wants to speak to you, the holy spirit wants to speak to you and jesus wants to speak to you there one and the same. And jesus doesnt speak to you through the bible at this point either regardless of what people say, thats why we will never understand if paul was speaking past tense or present tense, get the spirit and you'll know what tense he was speaking in. The spirit will teach you all things...another one fom jesus and yet the spirit doesn't teach us anything as is if he did we'd know for sure what tense paul was speaking in...

We can agree or disagree, i respect everything you've said so far and i know your a good man and you want to do god's will like the rest of us, but what i ve typed must give interesting reading, you've got to ask yourself this, whats more important burning incense to God or this thread, and the people of the forum have replied to the incense one more than this, that reads it's own conclusion, what we're teaching should work...but unfortunately it doesn't.

We have to try a different way because this one isn't working and it's not backing up the words of jesus, not paul or john or peter but jesus, they all interwine anyway, they all back jesus up but not how we seeing it we're taking one small scripture from paul and its not backing up the words of jesus because we're taking it out of context and for the record it was the past tense paul was talking in anyway .

If jesus came back today the man that said faith can move mountains, the man that said withoud god nothing is impossible, who do you think would have faith he talked of the people that denied jesus can give you a spirit that can live totally and completeluy above sin or the man that says you cant unless you read the bible, pray really develop your relationship and you'll still sin but will do better at it, there's one or two scriptures in the whole of the bible that can out of context make you believe that you cant live above sin but jesus said plenty more than that in context that told you you can, not in the flesh it never will and its not your fault that you live in sin regardless of what we teach, it's impossible to bear the neccessary fruits and you can try for the next 100 years and you'll still get the same results.

None of us are far away, we are doing almost everything right, we are on the right path, but there's one thing that we all do that keeps us from it and thats the bible reading before we're born again...surely after how long you've struggled in sin like me like the rest of us, it's worth one try to see what happens...its not like i m satying stop worshipping jesus or dont repent, i m saying stop bible reading and start earnestly praying to jesus for help, for the holy spirit, for forgiveness, to be changed, we've tried everything else.

Also thank you for sharing your beliefs with me, i appreciate it.

 

[USCGrad90]

Your interpretation of the words of Christ are without some of the context of His other words and supporting scripture. Yes, Jesus say in John 14:12 that "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." Has anyone ever performed more or greater physical miracles or come close to the signs that Christ exhibited? I would say NO and I do not expect any human to ever perform the miracles that Christ did. The thousands who were seeking physical miracles from Him were no where to be seen when Christ was placed on the cross.

If Christ wasn't speaking of the physical miracles, then what about Spiritual work? This makes more sense to me because a physical miracle is temporary and will end with physical death. When the apostles went out and preached in the power of the Spirit he provided, thousands were converted, and since then, millions more. This is what I believe Christ is referring to. The change to a person's soul is permanent and everlasting. This is the greater work that I believe Christ is speaking of and makes more sense to me in the context of His other words and importance.

In terms of the Holy Spirit, Jesus also speaks in John 14: 16-17: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." This is more in support of a Holy Spirit who lives in me rather than one who can come and go.

We reference Paul because of his dramatic conversion and contribution to the New Testament as an instrument of God. This is not to put him above Christ or analyzed more than the words of Christ, but simply because he was given the truth to relay to us. Jesus was sent to take the weight of our sins - past, present and future.

Because you continue to tell me that I have no realationship with Christ and that I know nothing of the Holy Spirit, I find no reason to debate this further. This can not result in a good conclusion for either of us. I will state to you that I have experienced the Holy Spirit working in me and speaking through me to provide words when I had none. I know this was not me, but Christ working through me.

I know that God continues to work in all of us and I wish you well in your personal pursuit of Christ.

 

[SoulBap6]

What are we doing wrong as Christians.?

I have read most of the Postings and it sounds like defeat, despair and most of all doubt. As a Christian our you really feeling defeated?
Rom.1
1.[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal.3
1.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb.10
1.[38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Have we lost sight of our faith in Jesus Christ, when I was saved I was filled with the Holy spirit I felt Gods presents I felt ever so close to my savior, how did you feel when you were saved? I felt the weight of sin come off of me and I praised God for my forgiveness. I believe with all my heart and soul turning my life over to the one who paid the price for me at Calvary.

What wrong with Christians nothing if your truly saved? If you our one of Gods children and your in a backsliding condition get on your knees and pray that God forgive me and return me to the place I was when I was saved, I think of King David and when he sinned Psalms 51 the prayer King David prayed in bitter tears and the sorrow in his heart.
God forgave King David the world didn't but God did, victory is the lords, 1st John Chapter 2 Verse one my little children that's you! Christian what does Apostle John tell us as Christians to do if we sin. We live by faith and not by sight, Where is your Trust, Belief, and Faith. Pray get in your closet and Pray until God answers, don't try and find your answers in the world their is none, Ask the one who created you and the universe, listen to what he is saying take the time to listen.


Luke.11
1.[9] And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
2.[10] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Christ can open your eyes, or is it your afraid of what he will say or reveal to you?
When I ask him what I should do he told me, to preach the Gospel and I do, Last week Sunday I help lead a little boy to Christ, the little boy was saved, you want to know what Joy is to help lead souls to Christ. My reward was to have the privilege to see a soul being saved and to watch and see that person grow as a Christian.

Do not feel defeated as a Christian Jesus wins Satan looses as a Christian a Citizen of Heaven Sons and daughters of almighty God the love of God sealed until the day of redemption you our a child of the King. have a blessed day.

 

[bobbarry]

Thanks for your reply SoulBap i appreciate it. Look back at my postings i m the man that believe's jesus can do everything for you now, you can live above sin with complete victory over it and he can give you a holy spirit that can do miracles the same as he did the same holy spirit he had, paul had, stephen had etc etc. What is the difefrence between yourself and paul, if you have the holy spirit how dont you have the ministry that paul had is it because you're too lazy to do it?? Or was paul just much better than all of us, no it's not true the holy spirit done it through paul it worked with paul, but we wont get anywhere near what paul achieved not because we're any worse than paul or he was any better than any of us or jesus gave paul a spirit any bigger than the one he wants to give us it's because we dont have the holy spirit we claim that we do, even though we genuinely believe that we do,

if your struggling in sin you dont have the holy spirit even though you believe that you do.


And i bet even now that little boy that you helped to lead to Christ wont defeat sin when he's older because of what you done and the holy spirit that you claim that is in him wont be the same one jesus had or paul or stephen. You said that it gave you joy to lead him to christ, the holy spirit is joyful no work, not even bringing a child to christ will give you that joy, when you have it you'll be joyful every second of every day when jesus said it will be difficult etc it's because people will persecute you and they will and it will be because of your joy, people dont like seeing someone thats happy all off the time especially not this happy, it will be your nature. The spirit people had in the bible isn't the same one that we're baptising people with today i m sorry to tell you that but it's true.


Now tell me this does that sound like the man that doesn't have faith, if we look back at the scriptures you've quoted i must be just i have faithi believe jesus can do everything now, i believe. It's USC and almost everybody else that claims we'll never live above sin, if we pray/study/fast enough we'll limit sin, yes we believe jesus can do it but he wont because it's either not his timing or we're not pleasing him enough/doing enough for him, thats what the church teaches...and the very scriptures you quote backs that up. Thats not faith in jesus what you talk of, your saying he can do it but he wont because your not doing enough for him...thats totally against every part of the message he taught himself when he was here.


i ll tell you what happened to me when i was saved and received the holy spirit, i knew i was completely forgiving for everything i d ever done, i knew no sin had power over me and i mean no sin, sin became a choice not like it is now for people, i never struggled with a single sin whatsoever. I had love, joy all the fruits of the spirit in my heart continually. I dont think i ever met a single person that immediately knew i was different to anybody else they'd ever met...in a good way, without even mentioning jesus or god or anything, they would have no idea that i was born again when we met but you knew by there reaction that they knew i had something different...they were in awe but they couldn't work it out...i m not making out that i was awe-inspiring it was the spirit that was...i think thats much closer to the spirit in the bible than the one we're receiving . I would give up all the days of my life to have it for another year and i dont hate my life as it is, but thats how amazing it is...and we can all have it every single one of us...it's just that what we're doing to get it doesn't work and it's time to change...

 

[bobbarry]

Also just to add i could understand every single passage of the bible, i knew what the context was and what point that was being made not some passages and not others every single passage, the holy spirit lets you know what your reading, your left in no doubt whatsoever why what was being said was being said for example, i could quote pretty much any part of the bible and i mean large sections of it, without the spirit i could sit down and spend hours trying to memorise a small verse or two it wont get me far in the end...and the bible with the spirit is completely different than reading the bible with the fleshly mind that we have. What we teach makes sense to us, but it doesn't get results and it never will.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

I promise you usc if you had the holy spirit living inside you, you wouldn't be struggling at all with anything.

This is a lie from Satan, not truth from Christ.

God never promised us we wouldn't struggle. He promised us He would be with us, either to deliver us through, or to comfort us as we experienced trial, tribulation, difficulty, illness, financial setback, social ostracization, or other spiritual, physical, mental, or economic problem.

When we become aware that life will give us more than we can handle and come to grips with this, we find a promise: God is faithful to meet us in the mess and in the pain. And when He does, we learn to recognize our constant need to depend on Him. This is why Peter instructs the church, the Body of Christ, to cast our fears, worries, suffering and pain on God. He reasons we can do this because God cares for us. When life deals us more than we can handle, we can rest in the reality that God can handle it.

We don't need people lying to us and telling us "You don't have the Holy Spirit," or else we would be happy, trouble- and carefree. We need people -- period. We need each other to move ahead, and we need far more than tired old phrases. In times when life becomes unmanageable, we need to be willing to walk alongside one another. When we do this, we put flesh and bone on the person of Jesus. We can be with one another in the midst of suffering, helping each other carry the weight. Which means, that we, as the Body of Christ, have an opportunity.

When we are willing to sit in the pain, to walk with one another when life’s path is difficult and to shoulder one another’s burdens when they are too heavy, we become an embodied promise. We become living proof that while life can sometimes be too much, through the goodness of our loving of God displayed within us, we can move forward together, in Christ. And that is what He promised. Nothing else.

If you have difficulties, turn to Christ, and His body. And if you don't have any of the Body close enough to you to share your trials and troubles, that isn't Christ's fault. That is your fault, for not engaging in fellowship and worship in a body of believers who help one another.

The OP in this thread is dangerous theology which should be rejected completely out of hand.