What are we doing here?

[boughtwithaprice]

#10


What is the root of "spiritual gifts"? The Holy Spirits power through a person. It is literally God using that person and feeding them answers, wisdom, guidance, insight. So the root is still God, and like in my previous post #17 you can make sure it’s accurate.

I am not arguing that God is the root, but there is no other office in the Church to which you would owe loyalty. Each one is subject to your personal decrees or may you sometime be mistaken?

How do you know, what basis is there for your judgement?

 

[Delvianna]

I am not arguing that God is the root, but there is no other office in the Church to which you would owe loyalty. Each one is subject to your personal decrees or may you sometime be mistaken?

How do you know, what basis is there for your judgement?

But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. - Matthew 23:8

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I just gave you scripture, so no. It's not "me" saying it.

That is where you are wrong, yet you don’t realize it. When both people are presenting scripture, it is no longer scripture arguing, but another’s private interpretation

Christ said He would build a Church, not just give us a book and cry “every man for himself, good luck figuring it out”
I agree that we do not rely solely on people because any one can claim to speak for God, but what is there basis for doing so? God gave us a hierarchy of authority from scripture: Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors.
Jesus said He would not leave us orphans meaning that we are adrift to figure it all out on our own.
Apostle means one who is sent, which is as an ambassador who represents the diplomatic interests of a kingdom. They have the authority of the king and speak for Him. They are human and can make mistakes, but we have to contemplate very prayerfully before making that judgement. Even if they are found morally wanting, their office still must be respected as it is established by God. As king David said of Saul, “I cannot raise my hand against God’s anointed”, although he knew Saul wished to slay him and was behaving with evil
When we ignore Apostles, it is though we are in rebellion against the kingdom and expect God to ignore His promises given to His Church in favor of our private interpretation.
So your way feels right to you? You are aware that scripture in proverbs says, there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
The spirit realm is complex, and the one thing that we know is that evil spirits are capable of tempting us. They do that by feelings. They tempt to make the evil seem good and the good seem evil, that is what they do. So if we rely on spiritual feelings to guide us in scripture, we can be lead astray. An exorcist once said, God is not the only one that broadcasts on that channel.


Your comments seem to tell me that you are relying only on yourself and blaming God if you get it wrong, because you say God will personally open the scriptures to you, which is what one means when he says scripture interprets itself.
Really? That is what Jehovahs witnesses also tell me. Do I believe them? If not, then why are they wrong and you right? If they are lead astray, how do you know that you are not?

I have brought up a work from the second century that is very scriptural based as it references I believe every book in the Bible.
Would you read it? Iraneus, Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching

It could provide insights to you for further study, as scripture also says it is useful for reproof, correction and training in righteousness
How can one be reproved who refuses to listen? How can one be corrected who says, no thanks I am fine? How can one be trained who refuses instruction?
It is interesting that the Laodiceans were mentioned in another post. What is their sin for which God calls them to repent? It can be summed up in two words, “No thanks”, as they say I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing.

God says they are miserable, blind, poor and naked. Such are those that refuse correction, instruction and training. Humility demands that we ask for help. God does not like His gifts to receive the reply, No thanks.

I say this not to condemn you, but to encourage you. God loves you and wants the best of His kingdom for you. How can He give it to you, if you refuse?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. - Matthew 23:8

I agree that we do not learn from a man, God is the teacher, but He has appointed those over us and have all saints working together for the Body of Christ. If it is “every man for himself” then there is no body

 

[bèlla]

I say this not to condemn you, but to encourage you. God loves you and wants the best of His kingdom for you. How can He give it to you, if you refuse?

Why can’t you trust the Lord to lead His servant? Has He given you a word in respect to @Delvianna or are your comments wholly yours? Given what I’ve read I doubt that’s so but I thought I’d ask.

There’s a time and season for all things. We don’t need to be at the same place or doing the same things. She’ll get where she needs to be as long as she holds firm to His unchanging hand. And that holds true for us all.

~bella

 

[Delvianna]

I agree that we do not learn from a man, God is the teacher, but He has appointed those over us and have all saints working together for the Body of Christ. If it is “every man for himself” then there is no body

You just misunderstood everything I said, including my point. But I really don't want to say it again, so that's fine. I follow God's direction and that's all I need.

How can He give it to you, if you refuse?

I'm refusing man, not God. Don't conflate the two. Specially when I said I'm making sure that what man says is accurate. But somehow you seem to think I'm saying something else entirely... anyway....

God bless.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Why can’t you trust the Lord to lead His servant? Has He given you a word in respect to @Delvianna or are your comments wholly yours? Given what I’ve read I doubt that’s so but I thought I’d ask.

There’s a time and season for all things. We don’t need to be at the same place or doing the same things. She’ll get where she needs to be as long as she holds firm to His unchanging hand. And that holds true for us all.

~bella

God compels me to speak. If I see someone in error, do I not offer help? Does God say to leave everyone to their own devices? I cannot force her to listen, but as I listen to her, I can carry on a conversation.
The way of the Lord is not fantasy nor pretense .Our faith requires action. It is not evil or superfluous to encourage that action. We do not sit idly by and pretend all will be good. As it says in Ezekiel 33

6 And if the watchman see the sword coming, and sound not the trumpet: and the people look not to themselves, and the sword come, and cut off a soul from among them: he indeed is taken away in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at the hand of the watchman. 7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: Thus you have spoken, saying: Our iniquities, and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them: how then can we live?

11 Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the children of thy people: The justice of the just shall not deliver him, in what day soever he shall sin: and the wickedness of the wicked shall not hurt him, in what day soever he shall turn from his wickedness: and the just shall not be able to live in his justice, in what day soever he shall sin. 13 Yea, if I shall say to the just that he shall surely live, and he, trusting in his justice, commit iniquity: all his justices shall be forgotten, and in his iniquity, which he hath committed, in the same shall he die. 14 And if I shall say to the wicked: Thou shalt surely die: and he do penance for his sin, and do judgment and justice, 15 And if that wicked man restore the pledge, and render what he had robbed, and walk in the commandments of life, and do no unjust thing: he shall surely live, and shall not die.

16 None of his sins, which he hath committed, shall be imputed to him: he hath done judgment and justice, he shall surely live. 17 And the children of thy people have said: The way of the Lord is not equitable: whereas their own way is unjust. 18 For when the just shall depart from his justice, and commit iniquities, he shall die in them. 19 And when the wicked shall depart from his wickedness, and shall do judgments, and justice: he shall live in them. 20 And you say: The way of the Lord is not right, I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.



As members of the Body of Christ, we owe it to eachother to speak, but not of ourselves, rather as we see God and His Church speaking

 

[bèlla]

God compels me to speak.

That is not the same as a specific word from the Lord concerning @Delvianna. The Holy Spirit did not direct you to address this topic with her. If she has no interest in doing as you suggest that’s the answer. You have to respect her boundaries and ability to decide for herself. She’s not a child.

~bella

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You just misunderstood everything I said, including my point. But I really don't want to say it again, so that's fine. I follow God's direction and that's all I need.


I'm refusing man, not God. Don't conflate the two. Specially when I said I'm making sure that what man says is accurate. But somehow you seem to think I'm saying something else entirely... anyway....

God bless.

You say you are not refusing God, yet offer no evidence. I did not come to you. You came to my thread and decided to post. If you are relying on God, why come to me?
Did you just wish to throw shade at my thoughts or discourage others from considering them?
It is a simple question. Have we considered writings of men close to the Apostles, let’s look at them and see?
I see no evidence that you have even read the writings proposed, but just decided to puff yourself up and tell us that you do not have to do so. That again begs the question, If you are following God, why are you here? You accuse me of not listening to you, incorrectly by the way, but you came and did not even agree to participate with the OP. If you had, you would have shown me that you read the writings

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That is not the same as a specific word from the Lord concerning @Delvianna. The Holy Spirit did not direct you to address this topic with her. If she has no interest in doing as you suggest that’s the answer. You have to respect her boundaries and ability to decide for herself. She’s not a child.

~bella

As I said to her, she came to my thread. Not to edify nor participate but to oppose without cause
Those are the actions of a person with an issue
Her posts only served to disrupt my OP. I addressed her politely, but you do not like what I said. That’s not my fault, nor a charge of harassing her in my thread. If she was not interested in the topic, she had the option not to post. She chose to continue to attempt to derail the thread
She needs to respect my boundaries, or is it your argument she can impose her boundaries on me in my own conversation?

As the OP says, what are we doing here?

 

[bèlla]

As I said to her, she came to my thread. Not to edify nor participate but to oppose without cause
Those are the actions of a person with an issue
Her posts only served to disrupt my OP. I addressed her politely, but you do not like what I said. That’s not my fault, nor a charge of harassing her in my thread. If she was not interested in the topic, she had the option not to post. She chose to continue to attempt to derail the thread
She needs to respect my boundaries, or is it your argument she can impose her boundaries on me in my own conversation?

As the OP says, what are we doing here?

Perhaps you should review your OP. You included the following.

I believe these works are worth reviewing and would be interested in others opinions on them, whether agree or disagree and why?

If you wish to discuss the texts alone it would be better to say that explicitly to attract the right participants. The way its written can be interpreted both ways.

~bella

 

[Delvianna]

You say you are not refusing God, yet offer no evidence. I did not come to you. You came to my thread and decided to post. If you are relying on God, why come to me?
Did you just wish to throw shade at my thoughts or discourage others from considering them?
It is a simple question. Have we considered writings of men close to the Apostles, let’s look at them and see?
I see no evidence that you have even read the writings proposed, but just decided to puff yourself up and tell us that you do not have to do so. That again begs the question, If you are following God, why are you here? You accuse me of not listening to you, incorrectly by the way, but you came and did not even agree to participate with the OP. If you had, you would have shown me that you read the writings

Suggestions to answer the question. You are being very defensive and accusatory by saying I'm denying God just because I said I make sure that what man tells me follows and is in line with God. But for some reason you want to be combative. Do whatever you want to do. I'm not even definitively demanding you do anything but for some reason you want to be aggressive with me and claim I'm not accepting God WRONGLY just because I made the comment that I place a hierarchy on the information that is shared with me. I have tried to explain my answer multiple times despite you misunderstanding me, and I dont need to be lectured when all I was offering was suggestions based on the scripture I read.

So I'm bowing out of this ridiculous thread since you dont want discussions, you just want to argue and toss around accusations while claiming to speak for God.

 

[jas3]

I have tried to explain my answer multiple times despite you misunderstanding me, and I dont need to be lectured when all I was offering was suggestions based on the scripture I read.

You have in fact refused to elaborate on your answer multiple times, either repeating a single verse or just saying you don't feel like going over it again. In a discussion forum you're expected to, you know, discuss things, not just cross your arms and insist that God is giving you direct revelation that you're right and your interlocutors are wrong.

 

[Delvianna]

You have in fact refused to elaborate on your answer multiple times, either repeating a single verse or just saying you don't feel like going over it again. In a discussion forum you're expected to, you know, discuss things, not just cross your arms and insist that God is giving you direct revelation that you're right and your interlocutors are wrong.

Then address the verse and dont just assert things I said that I didnt and I wont have to repeat myself. Good day.

 

[tampasteve]

ADMIN HAT ON
Let's turn the temperature down on this thread. Some posts have been removed. Everyone needs to keep a calm tone and be kind. We are all Christians here, if you can't come to an agreement to at least "agree to disagree" then it may be best to leave the conversation.
ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Gnosticism is a heresy spoken of by Iraneus. It still has influence in modern times. Here is what I found interesting


How Gnosticism Manifests in Modern Christianity

• Emphasis on Subjective Experience:
  A focus on personal, mystical, and spiritual experiences over traditional doctrines, authorities, and institutions.
  
  
• Rejection of Traditional Authority:
  Skepticism toward established church structures, creeds, and systematic theology, favoring individual interpretation and "inner light".
  
  
• Cultural Dualism:
  Ideas of an "authentic self" separate from the body, as seen in the "transgender movement," and a potential justification for abortion by prioritizing the metaphysical self over the physical body are linked to Gnostic dualism by some critics.
  
  
• Focus on Immanence:
  An emphasis on God's direct presence within the individual "spark" rather than God's distant sovereignty.
  

Key Points of Distinction

• Orthodox Christianity
  teaches that the material world is good and created by God, and salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
  
  
• Gnosticism
  sees the material world as a flawed creation by a lesser god, and salvation comes through achieving special knowledge

 

[Freth]

Gnosticism is a heresy spoken of by Iraneus. It still has influence in modern times. Here is what I found interesting


How Gnosticism Manifests in Modern Christianity

• Emphasis on Subjective Experience:
  A focus on personal, mystical, and spiritual experiences over traditional doctrines, authorities, and institutions.
  
  
• Rejection of Traditional Authority:
  Skepticism toward established church structures, creeds, and systematic theology, favoring individual interpretation and "inner light".
  
  
• Cultural Dualism:
  Ideas of an "authentic self" separate from the body, as seen in the "transgender movement," and a potential justification for abortion by prioritizing the metaphysical self over the physical body are linked to Gnostic dualism by some critics.
  
  
• Focus on Immanence:
  An emphasis on God's direct presence within the individual "spark" rather than God's distant sovereignty.

Key Points of Distinction

• Orthodox Christianity
  teaches that the material world is good and created by God, and salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
  
  
• Gnosticism
  sees the material world as a flawed creation by a lesser god, and salvation comes through achieving special knowledge

Heresy

The idea that your fellow man can accuse you of heresy has led to persecution and death in the past (for example), which isn't a good thing. Only God can determine if a person is saved or lost.

We are warned that persecution and death will happen again.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.​

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

Tradition

Paul was positive about holding to tradition. The context being, "by word, or our epistle."

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

​

Is Paul giving authority to a future power, or pointing to the existing authority in his day (Jesus, the apostles, the law and the prophets)? Or is it both? Regardless...

Paul also warned about tradition.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Jesus to the scribes and Pharisees, concerning tradition.

Matthew 15:1-6 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. ​

Paul gives a prophetic warning.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.​

Jesus warns us.

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

​

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.​

​

Matthew 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

​

We are repeatedly told to not be deceived; the onus is given to the individual to make a determination (through study of scripture, with the prayerful help of the Holy Spirit).

2 Timothy 2:14-16 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.​

I'm not arguing against tradition. Tradition can be a good thing. My own church has tradition. However, we are given the individual authority to discern what the truth is (through study of scripture, with the prayerful help of the Holy Spirit), and we should exercise it.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

 

[The Liturgist]

Heresy

The idea that your fellow man can accuse you of heresy has led to persecution and death in the past (for example), which isn't a good thing. Only God can determine if a person is saved or lost.

We are warned that persecution and death will happen again.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.​

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

Tradition

Paul was positive about holding to tradition. The context being, "by word, or our epistle."

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

​

Is Paul giving authority to a future power, or pointing to the existing authority in his day (Jesus, the apostles, the law and the prophets)? Or is it both? Regardless...

Paul also warned about tradition.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Jesus to the scribes and Pharisees, concerning tradition.

Matthew 15:1-6 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. ​

Paul gives a prophetic warning.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.​

Jesus warns us.

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

​

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.​

​

Matthew 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

​

We are repeatedly told to not be deceived; the onus is given to the individual to make a determination (through study of scripture, with the prayerful help of the Holy Spirit).

2 Timothy 2:14-16 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.​

I'm not arguing against tradition. Tradition can be a good thing. My own church has tradition. However, we are given the individual authority to discern what the truth is (through study of scripture, with the prayerful help of the Holy Spirit), and we should exercise it.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

Your post completely ignores the requirement to anathematize those who preach a false gospel in Galatians 1:8-9.

Also, it must be stressed the early church did not persecute heretics (indeed, several bishops including St. Ambrose of Milan wrote letters protesting the decision of Emperor Theodosius to execute the leader of a heretical sect in Spain; the Roman Empire had just 25 years earlier been actively persecuting Orthodox Christians) , while after the Great Schism, the RCC did, but the total number killed in the Spanish Inquisitiom (mostly secret practitioners of Islam and Judaism who had remained in Spain after the reconquest of Granada) and the Albigensian Crusade was at worst, in the same range as the number of Catholics killed by sectarian violence in parts of Europe perpetrated by Protestant governments since the early 16th century (and vice versa).