What are we doing here?

[jas3]

He doesn't tell us everything, because even if he did, we wouldn't need him then!

You think we wouldn't need God if we just had enough knowledge?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Right! And I literally just said yesterday to someone that I look at the bible like swiss cheese. He doesn't tell us everything, because even if he did, we wouldn't need him then! Our salvation is rooted in a relationship with God. Taking him out of the equation, ruins that relationship. The point of the Holy Spirit was to help guide. USE him then to guide you! This faith in man to constantly tell you what things mean over going to God and asking him for the answer is why the world is the way it is and why its getting worse and why there will be a tribulation period to begin with because if we all got answers from God, the body of Christ would be more whole and be more of a unified front against deception, false teachings and sin.

I want to be clear on your position. You believe that everyone has to find out about God on his or her own, without the benefit of an ecclesiastical structure or Church. Is that correct?

Scripture says we all have different spiritual gifts. How then do we share these gifts if we rely only on what God tells us and not what any other believer says.
Scripture also describes believers as a body of Christ each dependent on the other. How does that work if we each have to rely on what God tells us personally and not on what He has communicated to others?

 

[Delvianna]

You think we wouldn't need God if we just had enough knowledge?

I'm saying people wouldn't look to him as a teacher if he spoon fed us everything and made it super easy and apparent to understand. I mean, people don't even look to him now and accept man-made wisdom. A Shepherd is someone who guides, so why aren't people letting him guide in the most important area of their lives? Scripture.

 

[Delvianna]

I want to be clear on your position. You believe that everyone has to find out about God on his or her own, without the benefit of an ecclesiastical structure or Church. Is that correct?

#10

Scripture says we all have different spiritual gifts. How then do we share these gifts if we rely only on what God tells us and not what any other believer says.

What is the root of "spiritual gifts"? The Holy Spirits power through a person. It is literally God using that person and feeding them answers, wisdom, guidance, insight. So the root is still God, and like in my previous post #17 you can make sure its accurate.

 

[The Liturgist]

The danger is prioritizing peoples interpretations over following Gods, is what is the main issue as to why there are so many fragments.

That’s what St. Irenaeus said. The irony is that if you read the church fathers rather than merely dismissing them you would see they advocated for a unified church based on fully scriptural doctrine.

 

[The Liturgist]

Bear in mind where you are on the site in relation to your comments. This isn’t the space for catholics or an area for those who hold similar beliefs.

That’s not true - Roman Catholics are freely able to challenge the theology of any denomination in Denomination Specific Theology, and vice versa.

 

[Delvianna]

That’s what St. Irenaeus said. The irony is that if you read the church fathers rather than merely dismissing them you would see they advocated for a unified church based on fully scriptural doctrine.

You're misunderstanding my point and still pointing to people.

 

[The Liturgist]

You're misunderstanding my point and still pointing to people.

No, I get your point, that you reject the idea of other teachers outside of the Scripture and the Holy Spirit and blame them for all division in the church, but the irony is that other doctrinal points you’ve made and the idea of opposition to division in the church are all Patristic teachings.

 

[Delvianna]

No, I get your point, that you reject the idea of other teachers outside of the Scripture and the Holy Spirit and blame them for all division in the church, but the irony is that other doctrinal points you’ve made and the idea of opposition to division in the church are all Patristic teachings.

It's your prerogative to prioritize other peoples interpretations over asking God's opinion on it. Not going to debate you since you seem to like be argumentative. Have a blessed day..

 

[jas3]

It's your prerogative to prioritize other peoples interpretations over asking God's opinion on it. Not going to debate you since you seem to like be argumentative. Have a blessed day..

You do realize, don't you, that you're dependent on other people's interpretations to lead you to Scripture no matter what? You read other people's English translation of the original Greek. You rely on other people's concordances and Greek-English dictionaries if you want to look up the use and meaning of a word. You presumably learned your faith from other people who gave you their interpretation of what their preferred translations of the Bible say.

This is not a criticism of you in particular; this is the only way any of us have exposure to the writings of the first century. The question then becomes whether you choose to learn from and be influenced by people's interpretations exclusively from the 19th-21st centuries or also consider those from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries.

 

[Freth]

Because most rely on their own wisdom, rather than letting God lead them to truth. Most people also rely on reading someone else's interpretation, carrying on answers that are taught and spread or being comfortable with reading something surface level, forming an opinion about it and leaving it there but with the possibility their initial idea could be wrong. The vast majority of people want information spoon fed, instead of actively delving into the word and trying to seek out truth themselves.

When talking to most people, the amount of gotquestions.org links I've gotten, or ones to just youtube videos is insane. We are told we have ONE teacher and that is Jesus. While hearing others opinions is good in a sense for correction, the main source should always be God himself. And sometimes that means accepting corrections that might be counter to whatever you've been taught. A lot of people also don't like being corrected.

Hello Delvianna. I love your avatar. It is pretty.

It has been my experience over time that some Christians do post third party links to answer scriptural questions. They'll point you to a YouTube video, or website. Or they will answer based on what they've heard or think they know is the truth. The problem with passing on information is that the source material gets lost over time if you don't refer back to it directly.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean that, even if they post scripture, that they are interpreting it correctly. This is where praying for the Holy Spirit comes in; asking for a humble heart when searching scriptures, and not having preconceived notions, but listening to what scripture is saying; letting scripture interpret itself, because it does.

The one point I would disagree on is, "most people," which may not necessarily be the case. Jesus said that lukewarmness is a problem in the Laodicean church, and so it is a problem. Just how big I can't say. I think rather than trying to quantitate it, what makes the difference is other Christians being there to gently correct them. We can edify each other.

God bless!

 

[Delvianna]

You do realize, don't you, that you're dependent on other people's interpretations to lead you to Scripture no matter what? You read other people's English translation of the original Greek. You rely on other people's concordances and Greek-English dictionaries if you want to look up the use and meaning of a word. You presumably learned your faith from other people who gave you their interpretation of what their preferred translations of the Bible say.

This is not a criticism of you in particular; this is the only way any of us have exposure to the writings of the first century. The question then becomes whether you choose to learn from and be influenced by people's interpretations exclusively from the 19th-21st centuries or also consider those from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries.

I understand your point and I get what you mean, but I don't solely rely on interpretations of dictionaries. I also pull other verses that have the same word used to understand the same idea. But your point is exactly why we should be praying about what we read and what we think we understand. I have more faith that God can communicate and prove his answer, than I do that man can prove his answer. Ultimately, I'm leaving it to God that if I'm searching out the truth, studying and seeking his wisdom, that he will direct me either which way since Jesus is supposed to be our teacher/guide/priest.

 

[Delvianna]

Hello Delvianna. I love your avatar. It is pretty.

Thank you

It has been my experience over time that some Christians do post third party links to answer scriptural questions.

Right! I just mean that this is their primary source of information. I've noticed that a lot of people I've talked to in the past (I'm new on this forum, so I can't form an opinion for here) that they post links because that is the only source for their opinion. But when you reply to a specific argument, they can't answer it because they haven't done any study or research and are only citing what they've read.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean that, even if they post scripture, that they are interpreting it correctly. This is where praying for the Holy Spirit comes in; asking for a humble heart when searching scriptures, and not having preconceived notions, but listening to what scripture is saying; letting scripture interpret itself, because it does.

100% Agree!

The one point I would disagree on is, "most people," which may not necessarily be the case. Jesus said that lukewarmness is a problem in the Laodicean church, and so it is a problem. Just how big I can't say. I think rather than trying to quantitate it, what makes the difference is other Christians being there to gently correct them. We can edify each other.

That's a fair point. I guess when I say most, it's anecdotal based on the people I've run across but, it is a fair assessment to say truly, we don't know with certainty what % it is of people. Thanks for your response!

 

[Freth]

Right! I just mean that this is their primary source of information. I've noticed that a lot of people I've talked to in the past (I'm new on this forum, so I can't form an opinion for here) that they post links because that is the only source for their opinion. But when you reply to a specific argument, they can't answer it because they haven't done any study or research and are only citing what they've read.

Welcome to the forums, by the way. Nice to meet you.

 

[Colo Millz]

From a critical standpoint, no text is self-evident. Context, language, genre — all must be reconstructed. The Bible is ancient literature, and its meaning arises from history, philology, and comparative study. To claim self-evidence is naïve; every reader interprets, whether they admit it or not.

 

[jas3]

But your point is exactly why we should be praying about what we read and what we think we understand. I have more faith that God can communicate and prove his answer, than I do that man can prove his answer.

You said yourself that God doesn't spoon feed us all the answers.

Ultimately, I'm leaving it to God that if I'm searching out the truth, studying and seeking his wisdom, that he will direct me either which way since Jesus is supposed to be our teacher/guide/priest.

Why would you do that if that's not the model God gave us to follow in the New Testament?

 

[Delvianna]

You said yourself that God doesn't spoon feed us all the answers.

Meaning, he doesn't make scripture extremely easy to understand in a lot of points. Even Daniel had issues interpreting what he saw. It requires you to seek him for understanding and especially now in our age where we're having to translate, makes it even more paramount to seek him.

Why would you do that if that's not the model God gave us to follow in the New Testament?

But it is though.
God over everyone else.
I'm not saying don't try and learn from others, all I'm doing is putting a hierarchy for understanding, just as scripture told us.

"But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren." - Matthew 23:8

So if you're learning from scripture and someone comes and tells you something different, then you rely on God to show you which is true.

 

[jas3]

I'm not saying don't try and learn from others, all I'm doing is putting a hierarchy for understanding, just as scripture told us.

You are saying that though. You're completely dismissing the writings of early Christians because you think you receive direct revelation from God.

The model we're given in the New Testament is to learn in communion with the Church, the Body of Christ, to be one as the Son and the Father are one (John 17:21). In that way, we truly fulfill our Lord's direction in Matt. 23:8. That means not writing off the early Christians as witnesses to the apostolic teachings.

 

[bèlla]

Right! And I literally just said yesterday to someone that I look at the bible like swiss cheese. He doesn't tell us everything, because even if he did, we wouldn't need him then! Our salvation is rooted in a relationship with God. Taking him out of the equation, ruins that relationship. The point of the Holy Spirit was to help guide. USE him then to guide you! This faith in man to constantly tell you what things mean over going to God and asking him for the answer is why the world is the way it is and why its getting worse and why there will be a tribulation period to begin with because if we all got answers from God, the body of Christ would be more whole and be more of a unified front against deception, false teachings and sin.

Great minds think alike. ;-)

Francis Chan addressed this issue years ago in his book Forgotten God. He spoke about the church’s neglect of the Holy Spirit and I think a lot of people are trying to fill His role. And there’s also the reality of our knitting. Some feel closer to the Lord through intellectual pursuits and others prefer contemplation or service and so on.

Where we go awry is assuming our way must be everyone else’s. If you want to learn archaic languages or read every book written from the early ages do so. But don’t lay that burden on others. Let them work out their own salvation with fear and trembling while we focus on ours. It isn’t hard.

~bella

 

[Delvianna]

You are saying that though. You're completely dismissing the writings of early Christians because you think you receive direct revelation from God.

The model we're given in the New Testament is to learn in communion with the Church, the Body of Christ, to be one as the Son and the Father are one (John 17:21). In that way, we truly fulfill our Lord's direction in Matt. 23:8. That means not writing off the early Christians as witnesses to the apostolic teachings.

I just gave you scripture, so no. It's not "me" saying it.