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What are theological reasons for not accepting a literal Genesis?

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Vance

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Not "couldn't possibly", but most likely wasn't meant to be read literally. This was based mostly on the nature of the literary style itself. After having studied the cultures and the literature of the period and place, I became fairly convinced that it was written in a non-literal style. It simply reads that way, rather than as literal history. Then I began to look into the hermenuetics and discovered to my amazement (having been indoctrinated with fundamentalist literalism) that this non-literal approach was actually a very widely held viewpoint and I was human enough to be relieved a bit by this (when you think you are out in left field all by yourself, you sometimes wonder . . . ). What I read about the framework interpretation and the writings of many of the early Church fathers just solidified my viewpoint.

The initial impetus, though, was when I learned that early cultures in that time and place simply didn't view stories about their past the way we do. They didn't expect them to be entirely historical, but no less crucial to an understanding of their past for that. I thought, well, if THEY didn't view it as necessarily historical when they first wrote it down (as inspired), and when they first read it, then why should I today? It really is a cultural misundertanding problem. Today, we value accounts of the past TO THE EXTENT they are historically accurate, and want to discount them to the extent they are not so. So, when we (moderns) read Scripture, we obviously want to read it in a way that gives it full value (and so we should), and so we inherenty assume historicity. I realized that this was an incorrect approach, based on modern cultural biases.

So, once I was willing to consider it EQUALLY VALUABLE regardless of its historicity, just as the ancients would have, I felt like the "scales fell from my eyes" and began to read the text without this modern bias, and with some cultural and literary background.

Now, keep in mind, that this was not just an academic exercise. I was in deeply interested in the proper reading and sought the guidance of the holy spirit throughout. I did not have an axe to grind, or an agenda to fulfill, or a position to justify. It was honest seeking away from the hurly-burly of these types of discussions or debates (which I didn't even know really took place, assuming that all good Christians were solid literalists).

Then this entire process naturally led me to reconsider whether my YEC beliefs were correct as well. And as I began to look at the evidence as objectively as possible I was amazed at how one-sided all the evidence really was. The YEC side had a lot of noise, but very little substance. A lot of arguments, but very few convincing ones. The evidence for an old earth was a slam dunk. The evidence for evolution as a fact of our past was also pretty obvious, and the current theory of evolution as an explanation for that fact of evolutionary development was convincing, even though they are still working out many of the details.

As I walked through this evidence, I considered how it fit theologically and I found that, when you are starting with a non-literal approach to Genesis, it all fits together just fine. In fact, some of the issues like death before the fall make a lot more sense to me now then under a literal reading.

I would like to add in something I recently wrote about this issue that has been responded to (publically and privately) with approval by both sides of this discussion:

"Oh, no, one of us has that wrong [discussing the proper interpretation], that is for sure, and the Spirit would not lead us in different directions. And, I agree with you that God does not necessarily provide specific guidance regarding scientific issues. My point was that the Spirit can give guidance regarding the proper interpretation of Scripture, and will never lead one astray in this regard. And, the study of Genesis is, obviously, a Scriptural issue.

Now, let's think about this carefully. If God is allowing Twincrier to feel at peace with her literal interpretation of Scripture, and me to feel at peace with my non-literal interpretation of Scripture, what does that mean? I think that there can only be one conclusion:

The viewpoints that we hold in common about this subject are correct, and the viewpoints upon which we differ are of so little consequence to God that our having different viewpoints does not rise to the level of needing the Spirit's guidance.

So, what viewpoints do we have in common? The theological truths that arise from Genesis.

And what viewpoints do we differ on? Whether, in addition to the theological truths, the events described are literal history or not literal history, or some mix of the two.

Therefore, this tells me that God simply does not care what we believe about the literalness or historicity of Genesis 1 and 2, as long as we get the theological messages He intends for us from those passages.

And, therefore, we should not be making the literalness/historicity issue a dividing point for Christianity, and should not be teaching that it is an important, much less an essential aspect of doctrine."
 
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Vance

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I think what he means is that all the evidence from the natural world is that it is billions of years old and that all the species we have today got here via evolutionary development. I mean, it REALLY looks that way, from the evidence. So, if God did not create it that way, but just created the universe a mere 6,000 years ago along with all the species as we see them today, then we have a very complex (almost matrix-like) "mock-up" of a world and universe that looks (and tests) billions of years old. As a set designer would create these false backdrops and false props, everything around us would have the appearance of antiquity (not just maturity, but with evidence of a false history embedded into it), while not being ancient at all.

In fact, when faced with the evidence, Creationists in the past tended to break into two camps: those who accepted that the evidence of age was just too strong, and then just used the oomphalos argument above: appearance of age, but not real age. Others saw the obvious theological problems with this (God purposefully deceiving, etc) and just stuck with denying that the universe is old. Nowadays, very few argue the former, but we occasionally still see it on these forums in one form or another.
 
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Glisten

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billwald said:
If the creation myth in Genesis is factual then we don't live in a real universe but a big movie lot (or a computer program) and Shakespere was right. The world is a stage and we are actors on it.

Have you ever thought our whole universe is residing in someone's petrie dish in a laboratory?? :idea: :o :eek:
 
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California Tim

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Vance,

That was an amazingly well crafted and thoughtful response. While I appreciate knowing the motivation of a brother who does not accept a literal creation account, I did notice one peculiarity about your response. Namely, the predominant motivation is inspired by extra-Biblical evidence and personal understanding. While mentioning the study of cultures and literary styles, there is still a big question mark where the Biblical support for the rejection of a literal Genesis is concerned.

As I asked another person in a different thread: Do you test Biblical truth by the evidence, or do you test the evidence by Bibilical truth? Ultimately, it seems to me the vast majority of the TE'ists claim the former and accept only those parts of the Bible which can be verified scientifically. Of course, this would naturally lead to doubts of such essentials as the virgin birth, the myriad of miracles described, and the ressurection itself. So a lot more is at stake than simply reconciling the world's view with the Biblical view of God IMO.

Once again, thank you for your thoughtful perspective and God Bless.
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
Vance,

That was an amazingly well crafted and thoughtful response. While I appreciate knowing the motivation of a brother who does not accept a literal creation account, I did notice one peculiarity about your response. Namely, the predominant motivation is inspired by extra-Biblical evidence and personal understanding. While mentioning the study of cultures and literary styles, there is still a big question mark where the Biblical support for the rejection of a literal Genesis is concerned.

As I asked another person in a different thread: Do you test Biblical truth by the evidence, or do you test the evidence by Bibilical truth? Ultimately, it seems to me the vast majority of the TE'ists claim the former and accept only those parts of the Bible which can be verified scientifically. Of course, this would naturally lead to doubts of such essentials as the virgin birth, the myriad of miracles described, and the ressurection itself. So a lot more is at stake than simply reconciling the world's view with the Biblical view of God IMO.

Once again, thank you for your thoughtful perspective and God Bless.
No, thank you for your appreciation of its sincerity. But I would disagree with your hermuenetical assumptions. The willingness to take into consideration the cultural, historical and literary issues when seeking the proper interpretation of Scripture is something every Christian should do to some extent. Ask any pastor who has gotten any legitimate degree in theology and ask them how many classes they had to take in these areas.

The fact is that the Bible was not written by us moderns. God inspired the people of the time who wrote using the styles and the methods of the times. While I think God made sure that the essential Biblical doctrines could be understood by anyone at any time (isn't that amazing, btw?!), it is simply impossible to say that every nuance of Scripture is open to us without "studying to show ourselves approved" and "rightly dividing the word of truth". This is one reason Paul designated "teachers" as one of the essential positions in the Church. Those who can and do study these things and teach others.

Even so, we have literally thousands of denominations of Christianity (past and present) and most of these are distinct based on varying interpretation of Scripture. Some turning on very esoteric nuances. This is the result of the Scripture being far from crystal clear on many issues, and those who do study not agreeing. And the problem is that this includes those who are honestly open to the leading of the Spirit for guidance (as I discuss above).

Lastly, you raise a very common issue for the literalist: that a willingness to allow scientific knowledge to inform interpretation will lead to a disbelief in all that is miraculous. This is a misunderstanding of scientific knowledge. Science simply studies the natural evidence of God's Creation, and does not (and can not) comment on the supernatural. Nothing in science states that miracles can not happen, it can only say one of two things: a particular event can not happen in the natural course of events (raising from the dead), or a particular event did not take place because of specific evidence to the contrary. This latter could be that there is evidence we have that could not be there if the event took place, or that if the event took place, there would HAVE to be particular evidence which does not happen to exist.

So, science can say nothing at all about almost every miracle. The fact that it may be contrary to a natural law is of no consequence if you believe in the supernatural. (I would highly recommend the wonderful quote from C.S. Lewis in the other thread on this point). So, no problem at all for the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. There are other specific events which the scientific evidence from God's Creation is such that the event could not have taken place for one or both of the reasons I mention above. A global flood is an example fo the "both". If it had happened, there would be evidence that we don't have, and we have evidence that could not exist if the flood had happened. The idea of a 6,000 year old earth is an example of at least the presence of evidence which would not be there.

Now, as I describe above, I concluded a non-literal reading before I had reviewed the scientific evidence. But I have no problem at all allowing the evidence to inform how we read some Scripture. Again, geocentrism is a classic example. If the Church had NOT allowed the scientific evidence to influence it's reading of Scripture, it would still be clinging to a geocentric solar system.

And here is my bit on the fear of the slippery slope. Let's say you are at the top of the slope and you come to realize that the truth is not there, but somewhere down the slope. It is, however, very safe at the top. At the bottom is a very bad, very dangerous place. By staying at the top, you will not fall into the error of the bottom, but you know you will also not find the real truth, either. So, do you stay at the top, or do you head down the slope in search of the truth? Some will say, honestly, that you should stay at the top to avoid the greater error.

I say head down the slope, just make sure you have shoes with great traction!! :)
 
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Vance

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OK, I just had to include this quote from C.S. Lewis here. It just says what I am trying to say better than I can:

I have been suspected of being what is called a Fundamentalist. That is because I never regard any narrative as unhistorical simply on the ground that it includes the miraculous. Some people find the miraculous so hard to believe that they cannot imagine any reason for my acceptance of it other than a prior belief that every sentence of the Old Testament has historical or scientific truth. But this I do not hold, any more than St. Jerome did when he said that Moses described Creation "after the manner of a popular poet" (as we should say, mythically) or than Calvin did when he doubted whether the story of Job were history or fiction. The real reason why I can accept as historical a story in which a miracle occurs is that I have never found any philosophical grounds for the universal negative proposition that miracles do not happen. I have to decide on quite other grounds (if I decide at all) whether a given narrative is historical or not. The Book of Job appears to me unhistorical because it begins about a man quite unconnected with all history or even legend, with no genealogy, living in a country of which the Bible elsewhere has hardly anything to say; because, in fact, the author quite obviously writes as a story-teller not as a chronicler.

I have therefore no difficulty in accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical. We must of course be quite clear what "derived from" means. Stories do not reproduce their species like mice. They are told by men. Each re-teller either repeats exactly what his predecessor had told him or else changes it. He may change it unknowingly or deliberately. If he changes it deliberately, his invention, his sense of form, his ethics, his ideas of what is fit, or edifying, or merely interesting, all come in. If unknowingly, then his unconscious (which is so largely responsible for our forgettings) has been at work. Thus at every step in what is called--a little misleadingly--the "evolution" of a story, a man, all he is and all his attitudes, are involved. An no good work is done anywhere without aid from the Father of Lights. When a series of such retellings turns a creation story which at first had almost no religious or metaphysical significance into a story which achieves the idea of true Creation and of a transcendent Creator (as Genesis does), then nothing will make me believe that some of the re-tellers, or some one of them, has not been guided by God.

Thus something originally merely natural--the kind of myth that is found amongst most nations--will have been raised by God above itself, qualified by Him and compelled by Him to serve purposes which of itself would not have served. Generalising this, I take it that the whole Old Testament consists of the same sort of material as any other literature--chronicle (some of it obviously pretty accurate), poems, moral and political diatribes, romances, and what not; but all taken into the service of Gods word. Not all, I suppose, in the same way. There are prophets who write with the clearest awareness that Divine compulsion is upon them. There are chroniclers whose intention may have been merely to record. There are poets like those in the Song of Songs who probably never dreamed of any but a secular and natural purpose in what they composed. There is (and it is not less important) the work first of the Jewish and then of the Christian Church in preserving and canonising just these books. There is the work of redactors and editors in modifying them. On all of these I suppose a Divine pressure; of which not by any means all need have been conscious.

The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivet, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not "the Word of God" in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its overall message.

To a human mind this working-up (in a sense imperfectly), this sublimation (incomplete) of human material, seems, not doubt, an untidy and leaky vehicle. We might have expected, we may think we should have preferred, an unrefracted light giving us ultimate truth in systematic form--something we could have tabulated and memorised and relied on like the multiplication table. One can respect, and at moments envy, both the Fundamentalists view of the Bible and the Roman Catholics view of the Church. But there is one argument which we should beware of using for either position: God must have done what is best, this is best, therefore God has done this. For we are mortals and do not know what is best for us, and it is dangerous to prescribe what God must have done--especially when we cannot, for the life of us, see that He has after all done it.

We may observe that the teaching of Our Lord Himself, in which there is no imperfection, is not given us in that cut-and-dried, fool-proof, systematic fashion we might have expected or desired. He wrote no book. We have only reported sayings, most of them uttered in answer to questions, shaped in some degree by their context. And when we have collected them all we cannot reduce them to a system. He preaches but He does not lecture. He uses paradox, proverb, exaggeration, parable, irony; even (I mean no irreverence) the "wise-crack". He utters maxims which, like popular proverbs, if rigorously taken, may seem to contradict one another. His teaching therefore cannot be grasped by the intellect alone, cannot be "got up" as if it were a "subject". If we try to do that with it, we shall find Him the most elusive of teachers. He hardly ever gave a straight answer to a straight question. He will not be, in the way we want, "pinned down". The attempt is (again, I mean no irreverence) like trying to bottle a sunbeam.
 
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