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What are the Weaknesses of Evolution?

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sfs

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OK. So here is the distribution chart I had been talking about reproducing. This chart shows
what a population geneticist by the name of M.Kimura had originally published to show the real distribution of mutation in the human population.
If your chart is based on the Kimura paper you cited, then your description of it is wrong. Kiimura's paper does not describe the real distribution of mutation effects in the human population -- which still isn't known, and wasn't remotely known when Kimura wrote his paper -- but a theoretical distribution that has some nice properties for his model. Here's where he introduces the distribution in the paper:
Let us assume that the frequency distribution of the selective
disadvantage (denoted by s') of mutants among different sites
within a gene (cistron) follows the gamma distribution...
In other words, he simply assumed the shape of the distribution.

His curve is wrong, and massively so, for human mutations. First, note that ~95% of the genome seems to have no function, so that fraction of mutation will be completely neutral. Of the remaining mutations, a much larger fraction than the curve would suggest are highly deleterious, enough so to be removed by natural selection.

Consider just the coding regions of genes, which are the parts of the genome that are the best understood. They are about 1.5% of the genome, or 50 million base pairs. Single base subsitutions (easily the most common mutations) within coding regions either change the amino acid that is coded for (nonsynonymous) or don't (synonymous). Roughly two-thirds of substitutions are nonsynonymous. Of these, approximately 75% are deleterious enough to be removed by selection. (This can be seen both in within-species studies (Nature Genetics 22:231 (1999)) and in comparing humans and chimpanzees (Nature 437:69 (2005).) That means that fully half of all mutations are to the left of Kimura's box, which isn't at all consistent with his curve.

Of the remaining mutations, some undoubtedly are mildly deleterious, and accumulate freely in the genomes of organisms like humans. For many of them, the selective disadvantage is tiny, and the correct response is, "So what?". Being slightly less fit relative to a perfect member of your species isn't very important to evolution, when the perfect member doesn't exist; you only compete against real organisms, not ideal ones.

There is an intermediate range of mildly deleterious mutations that are more interesting, however. These have a selective disadvantage too small to be eliminated by selection in the human population, but large enough that the effects become significant as more and more mutations pile up. For example, synonymous mutations don't change the protein, but for highly expressed genes they may slow production of the protein down by a bit, since the translation machinary is forced to use less common transfer RNAs. So if you start with optimal production, repeated synonymous mutations may gradually make the expression level of the protein lower and lower, leading to a less (healthy, happy, bouncy, whatever) organism.

Does this spell disaster (i.e. extinction) for the species? Well, no. As the species drifts towards lower and lower fitness as a result of changes at that gene, the opportunity for beneficial mutations increases; the farther you are from perfect fitness, the more likely it is that a change will be good for you. In this case, a mutation that increases transcription of the gene will have a substantial benefit, and will be favored by natural selection.

For a real, finite population, then, what happens is that the species is never perfectly adapted. Instead, it is constantly drifting away from the adaptive peak, and occasionally getting bumped back toward it from selectively advantageous mutations. For really small populations, the species may be in trouble, unable to adapt fast enough to overcome the accumulation of mildly deleterious alleles. That's one reason that small populations are in danger of extinction.

As can be seen from Kimura's curve, most mutations are negative and pile up near the 0 mark, or the completely neutral mark. Kimura is famous for showing that there is a zone of "near-neutrality" where mutations are "effectively neutral"-meaning that they are are not subject to selection. Bear in mind that not all mutations are subject to natural selection, the reason being is that natural selection works on the level of the nucleotide, NOT the organism level.
I don't know what you mean, but it sounds wrong. Natural selection operates at the level of the organism.

*There is also a reaon why the curve never makes it to the actual 0 point but it is mathematical and I dont know what it is right now.
The curve goes to infinity at 0, which might be a reason to take it with a grain of salt.

So whats the point? The point is that evolutionary theorists consider everything in the shaded box to be redefined as "completely neutral" and thereby dismissed. Everything to the far left of the shaded box is entirely eliminated due to natural selection. Therefore they are free to argue that no matter how rare beneficial mutations might be, (to the right of the box), there is still enough time and selection power left over to use them for the building blocks of evolution.
No, evolutionary theorists don't do that at all. They know quite well that deleterious alleles within the box are still deleterious, which is why they're referred to as "mildly deleterious alleles", not "completely neutral".

The best estimates of beneficial to deleterious mutations weigh in at around one million to one (Gerrish and Lenski, 1998) The actual rate may be so low as to thwart the actual measurement(Bataillon, 2000, Elena et al, 1998) Therefore the curve really cant be drawn small enough however I drew a small one in blue just to be representative.
You are misunderstanding something fundamental here. The rate of beneficial mutations depends strongly on the environment (something Kimura actually points out in this paper). It has to. The beneficial mutation rate for an organism that is perfectly adapted to its current environment must be zero, since "perfectly adapted" means it can't get any better. Change the environment, and suddenly there are ways the organism could be improved, and so the beneficial mutation rate will go up.

There was a paper within the last few weeks in Science that reported a very nice series of experiments with bacteria (E. coli), measuring the beneficial mutation rate in an environment where the bacterium was not well adapted. They measured a beneficial mutation rate of the greater than 1 per 100,000 bacteria (i.e. 10^-5/genome replication). The total mutation rate for E. coli is only about 1 mutation per 400 replications, so the beneficial mutation rate in this environment was on the order of 1% of all mutations, which is enormous.

Ok. Next I'll show that mutations can indeed cause a "loss of information" and that it is not just a creationist wording, but that it also exists in many science books and publications as well. But more importantly I'll discuss the relevance of it.
Of course mutations can cause a loss of information, by most definitions of information. What you need to show is that mutations must cause a loss of information.
 
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Inan3

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Were you? Didn't think so.


No...my point exactly...only God was and He has given us His Word to tell us.

A large cloud of dust aggregated until it underwent nuclear fission. Thus, the Sun was born. Shortly after, the planets began to form.[.QUOTE]

Where did that dust come from? /why doesn't dust do this now?

The scientific consensus of the Theory of Cosmology is that it is correct.

Not all of them, no.



Could you be more specific? This sounds very New-Agey.

I can't be more specifice if I don't know why you think it sounds New-Agey.

Science is the method by which humanity gains knowledge via evidence. It's explanations for phenomena are rarely proven (such a thing is for mathematics and alcohol), but the evidence put forward for the more impessive theories is overwhelming.
Though the standard theory of how the Earth's biodiversity arose is unproven, it is so likely to be true that I have a hard time thinking up falsification tests for it.
Except, of course, if a human gave birth to a chimp.

Science only gives us a small amount of knowledge. And it's exactly that unproven stuff that keeps me from putting ALL my eggs in that basket.


Cosmology is the study of, among other things, the origin of the universe, the solar system, and the Earth. The standard theory is the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by solar aggregation discs.

What was it that went Bang and where did it come from?


Light is a self-inducing EM wave/particle. To call the myriad of photons in our universe 'God' is a bit of a theological stretch.

That would be a stretch. I never said that though, I am going much further than that. I am saying that God is the source of those photons, our universe and even beyond that. Light is and therefore lights can be. God Who is Light spoke light into existence by the power of His Words, to contrast the darkness that was upon the face of the deep and then put lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the Earth, "to bring light" to the Earth. In turn, there are other forms of light upon the Earth.

On the contrary, most people can construct sentences with syntax and grammar.

I didn't get the connection here.
 
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Inan3

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If Jesus had wanted us to read the Bible literally he wouldn't have used so many parables.

Again, I never have said to take everything literally. I have said that it is the literal Word of God. Jesus told us why He spoke in parables. And I have explained this over and over again. But it seems the Lord wants you to hear it from Him. He knows you and wants you to know His mysteries also. But you must do it His way. You must believe in Him. I'm not suggesting you believe in me or my church and you certainly don't have agree with me in this post BUT I suggest that any of you would seek Him for yourselves. Don't just take my word for it or someone's word against it. Find out for yourself.


Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(Not born again)

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
(Are born again)[/COLOR]
 
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Inan3

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What? We see stars forming all the time. The Hubble Telescope, the YEC's biggest nightmare. ;)

That may be true but it still is not out of "nothing" Where does the something come from. It's not hard. Do you really believe that the origin of everything is "nothing"? That doesn't
make any sense, scientific or otherwise. And if you can believe that than why can't you believe God? It certainly is much simpler.
 
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Inan3

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Unfortunately, Jesus calls himself a door without using such a qualifier. Do we take this literally, and believe that Jesus thought himself to be a literal door?

You know that is not what we are to take from that.
 
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MarcusHill

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That may be true but it still is not out of "nothing" Where does the something come from. It's not hard. Do you really believe that the origin of everything is "nothing"? That doesn't
make any sense, scientific or otherwise. And if you can believe that than why can't you believe God? It certainly is much simpler.
Why is it easier to believe in an omnipotent being that has always existed and decides to create a universe than a small collection of energy that has always existed and suddenly expands? I'm not claiming the pre-BB singularity was necessarily in some sense "always existing", merely that this is a far more plausible hypothesis than a fully-formed sentient entity.
 
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Inan3

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Sure, parts of it may be accurate. But how is that decided? Some parts of the Bible could be literal, but which parts? If Genesis is wrong, how is anyone to know whether other parts are wrong?


Exactly, Skaloop, that is why we take it ALL as the Word of God. If what we understand doesn't line up with the bible we don't have to throw it out, but on the other hand we do not throw out the Word either, NONE of it. That's when we trust God to to give us more understanding. To give us more "light" on the subject. This is how we expand. This is how discoveries are found. How victories are won. We can't take God out of His creation. Do you think He is against science? He created it all He is the greatest of Scientists. He wants to share His mysteries. He wants man to know and discover and believe me it will never end. Do you think it is in man to find out the issues of life by accident? We are made in the image and likeness of God, the Mastermind, and His desire is to pass it along to sons and daughters.
 
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Inan3

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Why is it easier to believe in an omnipotent being that has always existed and decides to create a universe than a small collection of energy that has always existed and suddenly expands? I'm not claiming the pre-BB singularity was necessarily in some sense "always existing", merely that this is a far more plausible hypothesis than a fully-formed sentient entity.

Because that is what we are like, (minus the omnipotence). We are creative. We decide. We have life. We love. We appreciate. We have reasoning. We increase. We are more than energy. We have soul and spirit. Like God. We are like our Creator.
 
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Inan3

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I'm not a Christian, but I'm going to disagree with this statement too. It is clear that the first 3 chapters of Genesis are not literal (at least, it is clear to me) but that doesn't mean that other section of the Bible can't be taken literally.

Well just so you know "that other section of the Bible" says not to take ANY of it away.
 
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TheOutsider

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That may be true but it still is not out of "nothing" Where does the something come from. It's not hard. Do you really believe that the origin of everything is "nothing"? That doesn't
make any sense, scientific or otherwise. And if you can believe that than why can't you believe God? It certainly is much simpler.

Who said that I don't believe in God? I just happen to not believe in your version of God. He seems so petty and irrational.
 
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TheOutsider

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Well just so you know "that other section of the Bible" says not to take ANY of it away.

I've always wondered, how do you know that that section wasn't placed in there as a red herring at a later date? It definitely seems out of place with the rest of Revelation. And if you took that literally it would only be talking about Revelation and not the rest of the Bible.
 
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us38

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Because that is what we are like, (minus the omnipotence). We are creative. We decide. We have life. We love. We appreciate. We have reasoning. We increase. We are more than energy. We have soul and spirit. Like God. We are like our Creator.

Begging the question.
 
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Split Rock

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Yes, true... but not wishing to get TOO technical... anything that utilises chlorophyl for photosynthesis is a plant...

Some cyanobacteria use chlorophyll b.

Why don't we say that all organisms that have plastids (including chloroplasts) are plants?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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No...my point exactly...only God was and He has given us His Word to tell us.
Allegedly.

A large cloud of dust aggregated until it underwent nuclear fission. Thus, the Sun was born. Shortly after, the planets began to form.
Where did that dust come from? /why doesn't dust do this now?
It does. Ever seen nebulae? Some are called stellar nurseries for a reason.

I can't be more specifice if I don't know why you think it sounds New-Agey.
You said:
Especially if they have been infused with the Life of a Creator. [Referring to plants surviving without sunlight]
I am honestly puzzled by this statement. 'Infused with the Life of a Creator' sounds like something a New Age mystic might tell me, before she bonks me over the head with quartz rock.
What do you mean by this statement?

Science only gives us a small amount of knowledge.
The only knowledge that is reliable is that garnered via science. I perfer to trust reliable information over guesstimation anyday.

And it's exactly that unproven stuff that keeps me from putting ALL my eggs in that basket.
So instead you put the rest in Christianity?

What was it that went Bang and where did it come from?
Nothing went bang, per se. The term was coined by it's opponents.
The 'Big Bang' was the rapid expansion of the spacetime continuum from a timeless, spaceless singularity.

That would be a stretch. I never said that though, I am going much further than that. I am saying that God is the source of those photons, our universe and even beyond that. Light is and therefore lights can be. God Who is Light spoke light into existence by the power of His Words, to contrast the darkness that was upon the face of the deep and then put lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the Earth, "to bring light" to the Earth. In turn, there are other forms of light upon the Earth.
I think I read this in Genesis once...
Some questions:
  • What do you mean by 'God'? If we are going to have a discussion on this, we may as well get our terms right.
  • How exactly did God 'speak' light into existance? Could photons not form before he made such a proclamation?
  • What is 'the face of the deep'?
  • What is the 'firmament of heaven'?
I didn't get the connection here.
I was using British humour to imply that I didn't understand your sentence:
That would be like saying that light bulbs were powered to light on their own and that the were just there without anyone putting them there.
 
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sfs

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Why don't we say that all organisms that have plastids (including chloroplasts) are plants?
That would mean that malaria is caused by a plant. I think my colleagues who study malaria would be surprised to learn that they were now botanists.
 
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TheOutsider

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You said:
Especially if they have been infused with the Life of a Creator. [Referring to plants surviving without sunlight]
I am honestly puzzled by this statement. 'Infused with the Life of a Creator' sounds like something a New Age mystic might tell me, before she bonks me over the head with quartz rock.
What do you mean by this statement?

It's possible that Inane is a Christian Pantheist. Not likely, but possible.
 
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Tomk80

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<skip points about mutations>

Ok. Next I'll show that mutations can indeed cause a "loss of information" and that it is not just a creationist wording, but that it also exists in many science books and publications as well. But more importantly I'll discuss the relevance of it.
Since sfs already responded on the points about the mutation and quite frankly, I don't think you raised any point I hadn't already addressed, I'll just elaborate a bit on what sfs said already.

What you need to demonstrate for you claims is not that mutations can reduce information. What you need to do is demonstrate that it cannot increase information. For this you will need to do some important things, and I am writing this down beforehand so you can check your resonse against that.

First, you will need to give a definition of information that applies to DNA.

Second, you this definition will need to be able to allow for the possibility of increases of information.

Third, to support your own statements it is not enough for you to demonstrate that mutations can decrease information. You need to support that they cannot increase information.

For example of the first, this means that Dembski's definitions of information do not work, because they aren't actually applicable to anything. As an example of the second, you cannot use Shannon's definition of information, because any change is defined as a loss of information á priori. This is due to the origin of Shannon's information, which is as a method of measuring copying errors. As an example of the third, if I define loss of information as a decrease in base pairs, I can show that loss of information can occur due to a deletion. However, using that definition increases can occur just as well with insertions, so in that case showing that mutations can decrease is really not much more than a triviality.

Keep these things in mind when showing your work.
 
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Oonna

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No...my point exactly...only God was and He has given us His Word to tell us.

Then why do you call God a lier? Why is the bible more important than physical evidence HE LEFT here?? Why do you deny the only real history we have, and take the word of men who "say" they were inspired by God? If God is responsible for everything, why would he leave us a full and rich history of how we came to be, if not to TELL us through his work? Why would he do that?
 
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